8th Ed. CHAOS DWARFS ~ Army List Construction and Feedback

[Karnus]

Nobody?

@Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel @Imrahil @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

I’m printing my first chaos dwarf army so I am here to learn!

what would you take at 2k and 2.5k?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

what would you take at 2k and 2.5k?

Something similar to the list I posted to start this thread, but with a few cutbacks. Truth is that I always play a 3K points, so I've never really built a 2k list.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Something similar to the list I posted to start this thread, but with a few cutbacks. Truth is that I always play a 3K points, so I've never really built a 2k list.

Ha!

I never play under 2K if I have a choice as I don't get to work out my army synergy and tactics sufficiently for my liking.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Ha!

I never play under 2K if I have a choice as I don't get to work out my army synergy and tactics sufficiently for my liking.

My thoughts exactly... I can't create a list that fills all my needs at low points games. Not enough toys to play with!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Not enough toys to play with!

Bingo.

Right next to list building, laying out the complete army at the start of the game is my next favourite moment. It has to be big, needs to have some CHUNKY monster types and some large infantry blocks for it to be a real army. Preferably with some mean looking artillery pieces. Mmmmmmm....

(Before it gets completely torn to pieces that is... )

 

[Karnus]

My thoughts exactly... I can't create a list that fills all my needs at low points games. Not enough toys to play with!

lower points games force you to make tough decisions about what kind of list you want to make though. Almost makes it more interesting, takes a bit of brain power, means making sacrifices etc

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

lower points games force you to make tough decisions about what kind of list you want to make though. Almost makes it more interesting, takes a bit of brain power, means making sacrifices etc

I find those sacrifices unsatisfying.

That said, 2000 and 2400 point lists are far more prevalent than my preferred 3k. To each their own.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

lower points games force you to make tough decisions about what kind of list you want to make though. Almost makes it more interesting, takes a bit of brain power, means making sacrifices etc

I find those sacrifices unsatisfying.

That said, 2000 and 2400 point lists are far more prevalent than my preferred 3k. To each their own.

I'm constantly chasing the first moment when I picked up a White Dwarf magazine and saw these huge battle dioramas laid out. All I wanted in the world was to have a massive battle like that.

So, it's not often, but if I get a chance to do a 3K battle I do it. Usually takes most of the day though which can be a bit rough

 

[Karnus]

I'm constantly chasing the first moment when I picked up a White Dwarf magazine and saw these huge battle dioramas laid out. All I wanted in the world was to have a massive battle like that.

So, it's not often, but if I get a chance to do a 3K battle I do it. Usually takes most of the day though which can be a bit rough

thats the crux isn’t it, On a good day we can do 3x 2.5k games in a day but it’s a long old day haha

 

[Lizards of Renown]

thats the crux isn’t it, On a good day we can do 3x 2.5k games in a day but it’s a long old day haha

Doing TWO 2500 point battles in a day is rough. You'll have to be pretty snappy about decisions, etc. and lunch/dinner is kind of inhaled...

I like to be able to enjoy the battle and have some friendly banter going throughout (good-natured trash-talking and... I have been known to start giving the battle a storyline and running narration... )

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Lizards of Renown @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Killer Angel @Imrahil

I was missing this one.
yay, another challenge i must face.

It's coming. I just need to spend a bit more time poring over the rulebook to get to grips with each unit type and their rules. (Case in point is missing the Thunderstomp point on the Iron Daemon and being surprised about the Magma Cannon being top of the voting list for best model!)

 

[Lizards of Renown]

View attachment 102704

Good one! Okay! Coming!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Here is my detailed unit by unit outline and what roles they are meant to perform in my army:

Sorcerer Prophet

• obligatory level 4 wizard, shares his leadership 10 where needed, can assist the warmachines with his Infernal Engineer special rule
• with the ability to fly, this guy can pop in an out of the Infernal Guard unit. Depending on the opposition's ranged threats, he can move in close (he can't be march blocked) and make use of some of the shorter ranged spells of the lore of Hashut. Having such a small foot print and model size, it is easy for him to stay out of charge arcs and utilize terrain to remain hidden
• the Lore of Death (one of the best lores in the entire game) is considered stronger than the Lore of Hashut, but I find it boring to play and I really wanted to field the CD's dedicated lore. Still, the Lore of Hashut can be pretty dangerous and boosts one of the best spells in the entire game.
• fairly well protected from small enemy fire with his 2+ 4++ saves

Daemonsmith Sorcerer

• backup wizard duties and improves warmachine performance. He will hang out with the warmachines
• Chalice of Doom and Darkness is extremely powerful, and should help swing most magic phases in the favour of the Chaos Dwarfs. Going the route of a dispel scroll is another good option, but that is one use only, while the Chalice can be used in every magic phase (both friendly and enemy phases)
• would love to get either the Glittering Robe or Enchanted Blades of Aiban spells, but Searing Doom is always a good backup should the rolling for spells not go my way. Final Transmutation is always an option if the opposition has a large deathstar

Hobgoblin Khan

• chaff, warmachine hunting, distraction

Bull Centaur Taur'ruk

• think of him as a 4 wound Scar-vet cowboy
• T5, 1+ rerollable armour save and S7! He also forces re-rolls of successful ward saves and is quite fast.
• The other potential build for him is to drop the re-rollable armour save and OTS in exchange for the Crown of Command. These are my two primary builds for this guy.
• can perform a variety of tasks on the field as needed, either on his own or in the Bull Centaur Render unit
• can help clear the way for the two Destroyers and help remove enemy characters equipped with the Dragonbane Gem or Dragonhelm

Infernal Castellan

• BSB duties
• provides stubborn to the Infernal Guard unit, which along with his BSB re-roll makes them very hard to shift

Hobgoblin Cutthroats

• Chaos Dwarfs are not that great in the chaff department as they do not have access to fast chaff options from their limited core choices. These guys help even the odds by being utilized as anti enemy chaff via their bow fire.
• especially important to remove chaff that might be positioning to divert the two Destroyers
• they also provide some protection of the the war machine backline
• cheap and expendable

Infernal Guard

• the anvil unit of the army. With the Castellan's BSB re-roll and Stubborn special rule these guys can hold the line and work in conjunction with the Bull Centaurs or the Destroyers in a classic hammer + anvil strategy
• reliable leadership, 3+ armour save, parry and a 5++ against flaming attacks. Razor standard helps them deal a bit better with enemy armour, but I do want to keep them away from the better armoured units in the game
• protect the warmachine backline

Bull Centaur Renders

• this is the choice I am least sure about in the army. If anything is subbed out it will be these guys. Might sub out their GWs.
• they allow me to field the Bull Centaur Taur'ruk
• perform a similar function as the Taur'ruk in assisting the Destoryer or hunting things down. Can also assist the Infernal Guard
• when joined with the Taur'ruk they form a decent hammer unit

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher

• if there are particularly dangerous single entities on the field, these guys can use their Demolition Rocket option to snipe them. Especially effective when backed up by either the Sorcerer-Prophet or Daemonsmith Sorcerer
• if no eligible single entities are present, they can be used to fire their large 5" template at large lightly armoured units

Magma Cannon

• extremely dangerous flame template attack that is very reliable. S5 flame template with a 24"+ range and Multiple Wounds (D3)
• Primary targets are large dangerous enemy units. Can quickly whittle down opposing deathstars to more manageable sizes. Counters the most dangerous of the enemy's infantry units. Think Witch Elves, Chaos Warriors, Temple Guard, Executioners, White Lions, Gutstar, Hammerers, Grave Guard, Savage Orc Big'uns, Tomb Guard, etc.

K'daai Destroyer

• the primary hammer units of the army
• can take on most enemy units quickly and effectively
• the rest of the army helps keep these guys from being chaffed up
• the key tactical consideration is to keep these guys safe from the few counters that be used against them. There are only a few of these counters available in any army, so it will be up to me to identify what they are and neutralize them. If I am successful in this endeavor, the Destroyers will cause untold amounts of damage to the enemy lines
• their impressive speed allows them to quickly get to where they need to be

That is the basic idea for this army, but obviously the strategy has to evolve in response to what the opposing player is fielding and doing. It has a bit of everything... combat, shooting, magic and movement. The rest of the army tries to neutralize the few counters that can be used against the Destroyers, while the Destroyers take care of everything else. Warmachines soften up enemy units and snipe enemy monsters and single entities. Sorcerer-Prophet floats around and helps out where he is needed (and kept out of combat). Infantry units stay behind and wait for the enemy to close in to attempt to avoid the warmachine onslaught.

What do you think? Strengths? Weaknesses? How would you counter the army? What would you change?

Overall, I think it’s a great build.

in terms of strengths, you’ve got a solid infantry unit, good artillery, nice monster-hammers and a tough wizard that can run around casting spells.

Weaknesses are the obvious anti-flaming attacks for the destroyers, which if you can pin these guys down then all of a sudden that’s a LOT of points neutralised and aside from the Bull Centaurs nothing fast left which leads to potential outmanoeuvring. Movement for majority of the force is a weakness. The anvil with M3 could be avoided. The anti-chaff hobgoblins can be destroyed fairly easily with simple bowfire.

Depending on the army that I would field, I’d have two mobile characters with dragon helm and dragon bane gem. Probably an Arabyan carpet of my own and a cavalry with the other. I’d try to neuter the destroyers if I could.

I don’t think I’d change anything. I’ve yet to see how the bulk centaurs perform but I’d definitely want to have another fast unit to prevent war machine hunters or cavalry getting into awkward positions behind my lines.

My tactic above for the destroyers could be countered by careful deployment, so as the opponent I’d try to make a list that had a lot of firepower and wait for the destroyers to come to me, moving my counters to match.

That’s my thoughts so far!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

That’s my thoughts so far!

Great stuff, all good points! Thank you for the feedback.

Weaknesses are the obvious anti-flaming attacks for the destroyers, which if you can pin these guys down then all of a sudden that’s a LOT of points neutralised

That really is the key. They represent two thirds of the mobile close combat threats in my army. In a pinch I can separate the Taur'ruk from the Bull Centaur Renders unit, but even still, losing (nullifying) both Destroyers would be devastating.

Movement for majority of the force is a weakness. The anvil with M3 could be avoided. The anti-chaff hobgoblins can be destroyed fairly easily with simple bowfire.

This is true, but the army list does have one more trick up its sleeve... the 3 warmachines. The hope is that they would force the enemy into the range of my slower moving anvil unit. It will depend on who I am facing, against Dwarfs its not really going to work, but against most armies the 3 warmachines should cause them quite a headache and prevent them from winning the battle from a distance. The bows from the Hobgoblins should help a little, if only to remove some chaff.

Not much we can do about it, our core is comprised entirely of M3 and M4 troops.

I’ve yet to see how the bulk centaurs perform but I’d definitely want to have another fast unit to prevent war machine hunters or cavalry getting into awkward positions behind my lines.

The Renders are okay but not great. The Taur'ruk should prove to be pretty good... similar to our Scar-vet Cowboy. More expensive obviously, but with twice the number of wounds.

I went with the Bull Centaurs for a couple of reasons:

• Fireborn are likely the stronger unit of the two (in most cases), but they would only potentially compound the dragonbane gem and/or dragonhelm counter against my Destroyers. The Centaurs can be used to eliminate these threats, while the Fireborn cannot.
• A flying Taurus mount also has flaming attacks, so we have the same issue as discussed above
• The Iron Daemon is more difficult to maneuver and can be bogged down as well, so it doesn't assist the Destroyers as effectively as the Bull Centaurs can
• everything else in the army is too slow to keep pace with the Destroyers.

My tactic above for the destroyers could be countered by careful deployment, so as the opponent I’d try to make a list that had a lot of firepower and wait for the destroyers to come to me, moving my counters to match.

A sound strategy. There are definitely a couple of armies that can outshoot my 3 warmachine + two archer unit build. At the same time, many other armies will struggle to do so.

I could always switch the Sorcerer-Prophet's lore to the lore of Death for more ranged firepower, but I kind of like the Lore of Hashut for fluff reasons (plus I find the lore of Death boring to play, even if it is highly effective)

(okay, I'll stop with the LOTR references )

 

[Killer Angel]

View attachment 102704

as soon as i can.
Real life is kinda holding me atm...

 

[Imrahil]

(okay, I'll stop with the LOTR references )

please don't

My contribution is not that big, I'll have to say.
Chaos Dwarfs is not at all in my scope. The only thing I can bring to the table is this:
A Chaos Dwarf list merely consists of plastic, glue and paint and occasionally some resin and metal

I like the esthetics of the models, not a fan of the big hats though. To comical for my taste.
The more grim dark models look good and I once have thought to own some of them.




Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Great stuff, all good points! Thank you for the feedback.

As always, I like the conversation. It fills a void I find myself in mostly on people to talk to about Warhammer.

That really is the key. They represent two thirds of the mobile close combat threats in my army. In a pinch I can separate the Taur'ruk from the Bull Centaur Renders unit, but even still, losing (nullifying) both Destroyers would be devastating.

Now that I am familiar with the army list, it would be my primary counter objective. The rest I could probably manage (the Bull Centaur Taur'ruk is gonna be a b***h to deal with as well to be honest, but I'd pick a decent infantry block and do it by combat resolution) but the Destroyers are too fast. Meaning, I could get something behind enemy lines with Flying or Ambush or Scouts, but the Destroyers could be there pretty quickly or could intercept fliers.

This is true, but the army list does have one more trick up its sleeve... the 3 warmachines. The hope is that they would force the enemy into the range of my slower moving anvil unit. It will depend on who I am facing, against Dwarfs its not really going to work, but against most armies the 3 warmachines should cause them quite a headache and prevent them from winning the battle from a distance. The bows from the Hobgoblins should help a little, if only to remove some chaff.

With my Lizardmen, I'd do Chamo Skinks. With my Ogres I'd do Maneaters. With my Daemon's I'd probably do Karanak/Flesh Hounds and Chaos Furies. Tomb Kings I'd do EBTS units and mostly the Stalkers as they are amazing at War Machines. It would depend on the Destroyers, as I would have expected you to do a tactic of forcing me to come to you (since most of the army is not mobile).

Not much we can do about it, our core is comprised entirely of M3 and M4 troops.

Yup!

The Renders are okay but not great. The Taur'ruk should prove to be pretty good... similar to our Scar-vet Cowboy. More expensive obviously, but with twice the number of wounds.

I went with the Bull Centaurs for a couple of reasons:

• Fireborn are likely the stronger unit of the two (in most cases), but they would only potentially compound the dragonbane gem and/or dragonhelm counter against my Destroyers. The Centaurs can be used to eliminate these threats, while the Fireborn cannot.
• A flying Taurus mount also has flaming attacks, so we have the same issue as discussed above
• The Iron Daemon is more difficult to maneuver and can be bogged down as well, so it doesn't assist the Destroyers as effectively as the Bull Centaurs can
• everything else in the army is too slow to keep pace with the Destroyers.

Yeah... All good points and agreed.

A sound strategy. There are definitely a couple of armies that can outshoot my 3 warmachine + two archer unit build. At the same time, many other armies will struggle to do so.

I could always switch the Sorcerer-Prophet's lore to the lore of Death for more ranged firepower, but I kind of like the Lore of Hashut for fluff reasons (plus I find the lore of Death boring to play, even if it is highly effective)

Yeah.

In my opinion, the deployment stage of the game is the most important part of the whole game, seconded very closely by the movement phase.

In the deployment, if you can force your opponent to finish before you get to your important units, you can set-up a win right there (modified by fast armies it's true and which is why I say movement is right there as a close number 2).

The one tactic you can do (and you probably have done) with your Hobgoblins, is take a bunch of tiny units and use it to rule the deployment and then you can see where the potential counters to the Destroyers end up.

(okay, I'll stop with the LOTR references )

Why?! I agree with @Imrahil keep going!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

As always, I like the conversation. It fills a void I find myself in mostly on people to talk to about Warhammer.

Yeah, the 8th edition content on here has been fairly sparse as of late. It's nice to get some discussion going!

With my Lizardmen, I'd do Chamo Skinks. With my Ogres I'd do Maneaters. With my Daemon's I'd probably do Karanak/Flesh Hounds and Chaos Furies. Tomb Kings I'd do EBTS units and mostly the Stalkers as they are amazing at War Machines. It would depend on the Destroyers, as I would have expected you to do a tactic of forcing me to come to you (since most of the army is not mobile).

Not sure if my 3 core units will be able to fully shield them as I attempt to castle my war machines into a corner. A corner castle is usually a sound gunline strategy. If I can force those opposing units to shoot through a screen, the -2 to hit modifier will largely nullify them (camo skinks won't like that, although it will do little against the stalkers). With more core units, it might be feasible, but probably not with what I have in my list. I guess the best I can do is try to place my units in a such a way that opposing scouts can't deploy too close.

Of course, terrain setup can play a huge role here, either making it harder or easier to achieve.

In the deployment, if you can force your opponent to finish before you get to your important units, you can set-up a win right there (modified by fast armies it's true and which is why I say movement is right there as a close number 2).

The one tactic you can do (and you probably have done) with your Hobgoblins, is take a bunch of tiny units and use it to rule the deployment and then you can see where the potential counters to the Destroyers end up.

Trying to out deploy my opponent might work, but it will come down who I am facing. For instance, a WoC army can field 30 point Warhound units, while the cheapest unit we can field is a bare bones Hobgoblin unit at 80 points. In such a case, the CD general would have no real chance of pulling off the tactic, and might be stuck in a situation where their forces are spread too thin. I have used the strategy before (with my aforementioned WoC army) but I just don't see the Chaos Dwarfs as particularly well equipped to implement the strategy. Units like Warhounds are simply much better at it, being cheaper and much faster moving.

Another deployment strategy is to create a setup that you go with regardless of enemy deployment. A preconceived deployment that is designed to work specifically with your army build. Create a shell to protect your back lines and force the enemy to come to you. I think the Chaos Dwarfs do have the necessary tools to maximize this strategy.

An additional tactic is to use your Destroyer(s) to disrupt your opponent's deployment strategy by baiting him...

• place a Destroyer off in a flank or away from where you plan to place your mainline
• your opponent can't really ignore it as it is too much of a threat and counter-deploys against it
• utilize the Destroyer's 18" march to quickly move it back into the position once the game starts, hopefully stranding your opponent's slower moving deployment drop in an unfavourable position

 

[Killer Angel]

Another deployment strategy is to create a setup that you go with regardless of enemy deployment. A preconceived deployment that is designed to work specifically with your army build. Create a shell to protect your back lines and force the enemy to come to you. I think the Chaos Dwarfs do have the necessary tools to maximize this strategy.

yep, an all-comers list with an all-comers deployment.
usually it's fine with certain short-legged armies... dwarfs tend to do the same, their gun castle is more or less already thought and only "lesser" units (as copters) are placed to adapt to the situation.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Yeah, the 8th edition content on here has been fairly sparse as of late. It's nice to get some discussion going!

Definitely! It's like a fine wine tasting afternoon

Not sure if my 3 core units will be able to fully shield them as I attempt to castle my war machines into a corner. A corner castle is usually a sound gunline strategy. If I can force those opposing units to shoot through a screen, the -2 to hit modifier will largely nullify them (camo skinks won't like that, although it will do little against the stalkers). With more core units, it might be feasible, but probably not with what I have in my list. I guess the best I can do is try to place my units in a such a way that opposing scouts can't deploy too close.

Of course, terrain setup can play a huge role here, either making it harder or easier to achieve.

If you do a corner option then this would probably neutralize the scouts, vanguard and EBTS. I'm pretty sure ambushers could still show up there and cause havoc though... But still pretty good as the number of units with ambush is fairly small.

Trying to out deploy my opponent might work, but it will come down who I am facing. For instance, a WoC army can field 30 point Warhound units, while the cheapest unit we can field is a bare bones Hobgoblin unit at 80 points. In such a case, the CD general would have no real chance of pulling off the tactic, and might be stuck in a situation where their forces are spread too thin. I have used the strategy before (with my aforementioned WoC army) but I just don't see the Chaos Dwarfs as particularly well equipped to implement the strategy. Units like Warhounds are simply much better at it, being cheaper and much faster moving.

It's true and it does depend on who you are facing. If you are going up against a cheap army like O&G then there's no way you're going to win that deployment fight, so don't even bother. Or Tomb Kings. But against an army that will be a genuine threat to that gunline like Dark Elves or High Elves it can be pretty effective.

I quite like trying to bluff my opponent. What do I think that HE thinks I will field? And how will I play? I usually try to through in some wild cards that will be something he would not be expecting. Or double-bluff, as once I've done this then he'll be expecting something weird and I could go totally by-the-book strategy.

This strategic list-building is easily my favourite part of the entire game. Trying to outthink a) what he will bring and do, b) what he THINKS I will bring and do and c) what I then want to do with my list building.

It's right out of the Art of War, “All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.” It's a bit hard to do with Warhammer as there is a finite end to the table and he can look at your army book and see what units you can field (and you can't disguise strong units and weak ones or vice-versa, things like that), but you can try.

Another deployment strategy is to create a setup that you go with regardless of enemy deployment. A preconceived deployment that is designed to work specifically with your army build. Create a shell to protect your back lines and force the enemy to come to you. I think the Chaos Dwarfs do have the necessary tools to maximize this strategy.

True. That's a good one actually.

An additional tactic is to use your Destroyer(s) to disrupt your opponent's deployment strategy by baiting him...

• place a Destroyer off in a flank or away from where you plan to place your mainline
• your opponent can't really ignore it as it is too much of a threat and counter-deploys against it
• utilize the Destroyer's 18" march to quickly move it back into the position once the game starts, hopefully stranding your opponent's slower moving deployment drop in an unfavourable position

This is a very good one. I quite like it actually as it's a perfect bluff to pull key units out of position and the Destroyer has the speed to bring it to an effective point rapidly. Nice!