My point is more that ToW and Oldhammer can be compared, and you can have a fair evaluation of pros and cons between the two, because in the end they share the same base (a thing that cannot be said for AoS). In the same vein people can debate if it's better the lascannon precision of 8th or the guessed distances for warmachines and generally shooting in 6th (which rewarded the more experienced players).
That's because 8th magic was not overpowered... it was a handful of spells that were broken. TK, despite having a strong magic, could not access the broken spells (except in a limited way and only with Arkhan). I do believe beastmen got a similar problem.
The Purple Sun versus Ogres (or Lizardmen) is a bad one. Every once in a while it will single handedly win the game. It's a tough matchup, especially when the Ogres/Lizards clump their army together or run large expensive horde units. Less so against a more MSU orientated strategy, but still problematic. When it does occur however, it is seared into our memories and can create a disproportionate conclusion. Taken as a whole however, and averaged out, it isn't nearly as powerful or game-breaking as our gut feeling might have us believe. For every time it wins a game, there are twenty or thirty games where it performs adequately, poorly or even backfires on the wielder. The problem is that these events aren't as memorable as the one time it wipes out an Ogre Gutstar unit. I'm of a similar mindset as @Killer Angel , that a few of the "big" spells would benefit from being toned down, but overall the magic phase was fantastic. 8th was in no way Magichammer. Warhammer is always a bit of a rock-paper-scissors game. Cannons do really well against monsters, but there are ways to deal with them . The problem is the same as described above, if a cannon does very little in a game, we don't really remember it all that much as compared to the odd time when it snipes the Carno. Also, cannons have bad army matchups as well, where they struggle to make up their points cost. I've never made the claim that 8th edition is perfect, there are small things I would tweak if it were up to me. My stance is that it is the best edition of Warhammer we've had. You are entitled to feel otherwise.
May I ask how many TOW games you've played? I'd also like to say this is a genuine question as I'm curious and not trying to make a point or argue
TOW will be bigger as it is the currently supported game. GW could literally take a giant steaming shit in a box and sell it to many of its consumers (and no, I'm not including you in that group). However, we must also be fair. You have to split apart editions of TOW (as they arrive) the same as we do for WHFB. It's nonsensical to compare 6th/8th edition WFHB to all of TOW once TOW has multiple editions out. You'd have to treat them in the same way. For instance, 8th edition WHFB vs 1st edition TOW. At the end of the day, if it wasn't for the axing of half the factions (and to a much lesser extent, the timeline shift), TOW would be 9th edition WHFB. TOW second edition would be 10 edition WHFB and so on. Looking at it through this more realistic lens, I doubt TOW1 will be as long lasting as WHFB6 or WHFB8. Once second edition arrives, the current TOW will not have the advantage of being the "current" game and fade quickly. I liken WHFB 8th to Mozart and TOW to Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift is current and by far more popular, but we'll see who stands the test of time. The fact that 8th edition is nearly 10 years unsupported (and 6th much longer than that) is a testament to their greatness. 5th or 7th editions on the other hand have not held their own quite so well. We'll see how 1st edition TOW does. It's possible. It may take off or it may not. It's much too early to tell. You missed the point. The example was provided simply to highlight that if they were both released today, head-to-head (with TOW losing the advantage of being new and currently supported), 8th edition would stomp it! The TOW release has been lazy, even by GW standards. It doesn't have the new model support that 8th edition had. Compare the TOW launch to the Island of Blood box. No contest. Even AoS got a proper launch back in the day. 8th launched with more new miniatures (better priced too, but that is a different story) 8th did not hide those new miniatures in a box with decades old models 8th launched with models available in store for all of its armies (a brand-new player wanting to start a TOW Wood Elves army for instance would have to go to Ebay to buy the models or wait who knows how many months/years for GW to catchup) 8th didn't relegate near half of its armies to second class status I referred to TOW as half a game because it did away with half the armies (the unofficial free pdf crap doesn't count), not because it has half a ruleset. I've never claimed that TOW has an incomplete ruleset because that would a nonsensical stance. TOW is NOT more complex across the other phases! You're just pulling that out of no where, with no supporting evidence whatsoever (and for the record, having three break test outcomes instead of two does not equate to tactical complexity). From the looks of it, it is roughly on par in terms of movement, shooting and CC complexity, but undoubtedly more simplistic in terms of magic. Most of the rules and mechanics are either the same as or slightly tweaked versions of what came before. Ergo, on the strength of the magic phase discrepancy, 8th is the more complex game overall. You’re making stuff up again. From all the years we’ve debated, you should have learned that I will always call you out on it. You only leave yourself exposed and undermine your argument. You can’t support your claim that all the armies are at the “same starting level”. Just because they were released at the same time, does not mean that they are on the same level. The meta hasn’t even had enough time to work itself out yet, so that claim is completely unsubstantiated. As for the powercreep, by its very definition we need time to make the determination. Only when the TOW 1st edition release cycle is complete can we begin to make a fully informed judgement on that front. Forge World fanfiction? So, the free pdf rules that GW releases for TOW that they openly state are not tournament legal and have no long-term viability in the game are perfectly good, but Tamurkhan, being one of the most beautiful and well received (and valuable) publications put out by the company is somehow fanfiction? Do you know what the term fanfiction means? The custom rulebooks you so diligently write and talk about are fanfiction, the Tamurkhan book (which literally has the GW logo gold embossed on its spine) is not. And no where did GW / Forge World ever state that the Legion of Azgorh was not tournament legal army like GW did for the TOW pdf armies. Really? Then you’ve been sitting at the back of the class and not paying much attention. Modern day GW: · Lock new models within boxsets of mainly old models (forcing consumers to buy a bunch of crap they don’t need, go to Ebay or wait for an unspecified amount of time before the model is released on its own) · FOMO limited edition releases · Don’t have all their models readily available, let alone readily available in-store · Have discontinued entire armies (AoS) or individual models (AoS and 40K) · Price gouging their consumer base (at many times the rate of inflation) Seeing a horde on the battlefield looks better to my eye than a 1x20 line. 8th edition managed to incentivise both going wide (extra horde attacks) and deep (the all important steadfast and steadfast negation). The two were constantly in competition with one another; a back-and-forth tug of war. TOW is almost exclusively skewed towards going wide. 8th edition also had game mechanics built in to penalize expensive hordes in the form of uber spells, templates, chaff, etc. As for Herohammer, from what I’ve read and seen, that almighty High Elf or Chaos Dragon Lord meta is not looking too promising. As for Hortennse, I’ve already detailed how to deal with him, its not my fault if you are unable to do so. If that is how you played 8th edition, then I’m sorry to say that you never really understood it beyond a superficial level. It’s a shame we live an ocean apart, or I’d show you a thing or two on the battlefield. We’d see how your “opinions” match up against my data driven analysis and number crunching. For once we agree, time is against me in that sense. People will follow what GW currently supports and pushes. It’s as simple as that. AoS enjoys that advantage over Warhammer Proper… but it doesn’t make it a better game. I’m under no delusion that the "current game" will be more popular than the unsupported game. Nor do I really care. *I’ll just look down at the simple masses with an air of superiority*
Let me answer your question with a question. Throughout the entire course of your life, how many dog turds have you picked up off the street, put in your mouth and ate? I'm going to assume the answer is zero. Your cumulative knowledge and general life experiences provide you the tools required to make an informed decision on the matter without having to actually consume the dog turd. I've never tried meth, but even without having done so, I know I want absolutely nothing to do with it. Likewise, I've accrued enough wargaming knowledge to analyze the information at my disposal and determine that TOW is not for me (without having to purchase all the rule books, invest the time to read through them all and play the game). To answer your question directly, I've played the same number of TOW games as AoS... zero. TOW failed to reach my requirements to justify giving it a try. No amount of games played will change the fact that: they axed most of my favourite armies (i.e. relegated them to free pdf rules, that GW themselves deem not to be tournament legal and openly state that they should not be considered for long term TOW play) the magic phase is been tremendously watered down. I've read the mechanics surrounding TOW magic, and I know with absolute certainty that the magic phase is extremely simplistic compared to 8th. Throwing two dice at each of your spells hardly requires much game experience to understand and analyze. IF TOW had avoided the conditions mentioned above (and those I laid out prior to its launch), then I would have likely given it a try despite my misgivings of its Linehammer mechanics. I still don't believe it would defeat 8th edition, but I would have at least given it a chance. Our time is finite and as such we can only engage with a finite number of things. There are many things we make judgements on without ever fully engaging with them. We can't watch all movies or tv shows. We can't pursue all hobbies. We can't travel to all the places in the world. We can't read every book. We make informed decisions based on relevant information. If something looks promising then we give it a try, but if it does not, then we do not. Such is life.
Little noises? Just remember who has the loudest voice on the forum. How many TOW supporters are required to out voice/post me? Even if I am outnumbered 100 to 1, it's a hundred skavenslaves to one Daemon Prince of Chaos! Not to mention, if GW holds true to their words, and the Lizardmen slowly decay within the TOW landscape, the TOW "voice" on this forum will crater in an instant And that is not even taking into consideration the possibility that my 8th edition brother, @Lizards of Renown , returns to the forum. Our combined strength would cut through the chaff. p.s. to any one reading this, it's all in good fun and meant purely as a joke.
While I do intend on giving TOW a try and I admit that it has reawakened the interest in Warhammer of some old friends of mine, for which I am happy, after reading the rulebook pdf and the army list pdfs I downloaded, I find that I'm currently leaning more in favor of 6th and 8th.
I plan on trying it as it looks interesting but I do love 7th edition with 6th edition armybooks. 8th is also fun but it isn't kind to my beloved Tomb Kings so my interest is less.
Great post and I agree with most you said both about knowledge life philosophy and magic…. However there is a factor that you haven’t considered (I guess) since you maybe didn’t play TOW. I felt in the same trap (I am too an experienced player 6-7 edition). The MAIN difference is the dispel range! I played a 2vs1 for a campaign and with a single level 2 caster could cast nearly everything and make a lot of damage to my opponents without them be inside dispel range once…. (Skink 6 movement help of course). I played ruby ring on a skink hero on terradon through a 5 games tournament… was inside dispel range once. Same thing about Bastiladon. What I mean is that even if magic has toned down it requires much more tactic then before to be played well. Spells range is nowadays much more important than damage output since (if you cast them) you opponent can nearly do nothing to stop you. Fated dispel is also bad because you need at minimum 9 with two dice for dispel a successful caster ring of ruby at its minimum levels. It doesn’t happen often… The only strictly bad thing is that magic cannot do anything about hero hammer and big monsters, so they have to be limited in another way.
I certainly agree that dispel range is something that adds some new tactical decisions in TOW, specifically oriented around movement - now you have to get your Wizard close to the front line to be able to dispel spells while still trying to keep him away from combat. Again, I really don't see why the 'hero hammer' argument has cropped up when discussing TOW - the only really game-changing character builds are those riding some sort of monster, meaning if anything it's more monsterhammer (which of course is a big change from 8th's cannonhammer discouraging the use of a lot of monsters). Ordinary foot or cavalry characters on the other hand can no longer access the powerful Magic Items combos 8th gave them, which, combined with units now being able to attack with every model in their front rank, means characters without the extra Toughness, Wounds and Attacks granted by monsters are now a lot more pressured to seek refuge in units if they don't want to be swarmed and pulled down, a big step in the right direction away from 8th 'blender' and 'tank' character builds being able to hold up entire units on their own for most of a game or even defeat them soundly.
Yeah both warhammer have his own problems. Character in chariot are also really strong (not only monsters), and I am not talking about skinks on Stegadon but both elf and chaos chariot riders for example. However a chariot doesn’t fly and have max toughness of 5 and don’t stomp and so on… Probably TOW just exaggerated in what 8ed failed. On the other hand is much easier to limit it in tournaments like reducing characters points to 35% as some did or something similar. The only big difference left is that before you had to choose dragon or level 4 caster. No you have often both. In that way the magic phase also lose efficacy. before you could play a level 2 and still have some spells making damage. They would have probably been dispelled but potentially could you do damage. Now you have in the best case 1 magic missile and 1 vortex only that means low probability to get both, and low probability to get with just two dices.
I am aware of the dispel range mechanic, and to be honest, it is a fair point. I would not deny that it is a tactical element that exists in TOW but absent in 8th. It takes skill, planning and battlefield awareness. It's successful utilization will grant a player a sizable advantage over their opponent. I readily accept all of that. It's a good mechanic/rule. That said, I will caveat all that with the following: It is a tactical element in terms of movement, not magic ➤ The TOW magic system still remains incredibly simplistic. Moving your wizard into proper dispel range (while keeping him safe from enemy threats) is purely a movement mechanic. You reap the benefits during your magic "phases", but it is purely an element of the movement phase. Once the movement phase is done, the actual magic "phase" is still just as simplistic, straightforward and unsophisticated as I laid out earlier. Actual TOW magic is still a bland and unskillful process. While novel to the defensive magic phase, it is hardly a novel mechanic in the game of Warhammer ➤ the entire game of Warhammer is predicated on the ability to effectively move your units into positions/ranges where they can be effective while denying your opponent the same. It's true that dispel range was not a thing in WHFB 8th, but the activity is no different than moving shooting units into proper shooting range, moving your offensive casters into proper casting range and moving your combat unit into (or out of) charging range. All these things require skill, but they require the exact same skill. If you're good at one, you're good at all the others. The 8th edition magic phase on the other hand, was a completely different skill. Balancing power/dispel dice, prioritizing your spells, baiting your opponent's dispel dice and accounting for miscast risk/reward are unique from the demands required to conduct a successful movement phase. That's why the 8th edition magic phase was often coined to be a "game within a game". It required additional knowledge and tactics that did not overlap with the skillsets of the other phases.
The term is obviously a nod to 5th edition WHFB, which has long been known as Herohammer. Also, monsterhammer is much less accurate, as it isn't an issue with stand alone monsters, but rather characters (i.e. the "heroes") mounted on the nastiest monster mounts. You're trying to pass off the exception for the rule. 99% of characters in 8th edition where not being sent in alone to solo a unit. In the vast majority of cases that would be an extraordinarily poor tactical strategy. Sure a Daemon Prince could do it or a stubborn Hortennse build or a stubborn Oldblood build, but those are the exceptions to the rule. Even the Vampire Counts "Blender Lord" waded into the combat alongside his unit in order to soak up any potential crumble should he flub his dice rolls. Hortennse and the Oldblood could usually holdup a unit indefinitely, but even they were highly unlikely to be able to chew through a combat unit of any significant size. The Daemon Prince might get the job done on occasion, but that's one character out of how many? And even the DP is not immune to meeting his end against a truly potent combat unit. So, how many other characters could reliably kill off a large sized unit purely on their own? From what I've read, the TOW Chaos Lord on a dragon is far more potent. A massive pool of wounds sitting behind an impressive weapon skill, toughness and an array of armour/regen/ward saves. Additionally, unless you are linehammering him, he'll probably wipe out the attacking rank so the opposing unit just has to sit their and get their face caved in. And if you are linehammering him, then you'll get to enjoy watching your attacks bounce off him. I keep hearing all these claims that 8th edition is herohammer, cannonhammer (your term), magichammer and hordehammer. I hate to break it to you, but it can't be all these things. If all these things are equally overpowered, then they are actually pretty well balanced against each other. From what I've read/seen about TOW, it's pretty much: Herohammer > Linehammer > everything else