Discussion Is Lord Kroak the most powerful wizard in Warhammer (all time)?

[- Q -]

Is Lord Kroak the most powerful magic user in the history of Warhammer? If not, then who is? If so, who comes the closest to his power level?

 

[Scalenex]

Is Lord Kroak the most powerful magic user in the history of Warhammer? If not, then who is? If so, who comes the closest to his power level?

I just rewatched The Incredibles. For a metaphor, I would say Mr. Incredible has more raw power than Elastigirl, but Elastigirl's power is way more versatile.

In terms of raw power, I don't believe anyone short of a god can beat Kroak. But Mummy Kroak can only smash things. A lot of wizards are more versatile.

In my head canon at least, Kroak was the most powerful and versatile wizard that ever lived.

Fluffwise, the contenders for most powerful wizard in WHF in my estimation are Mazdamundi, Teclis, Morathi, and Nagash. At that level, it is difficult to measure who is better.

It's like who is faster, Superman or the Flash. We lesser mortals probably cannot even measure it.

In 5th edition, there used to be game rules for fielding 2nd generation, 3rd generation, 4th generation, or 5th generation Slann. Now Slann are just Slann.

In my head canon, a 2nd generation Slann and 5th generation Slann fight the same on a tabletop because the 5th generation is giving the battle his full attention and the 2nd generation Slann is multi-tasking, he is maintaining a mystic safeguard for the entire world, contemplating a mystery, and a taking nap while also fighting in a battle near him.

What makes Mazdamundi so powerful is that his more awake and alert to his immediate surroundings than any other 2nd generation Slann.

 

[- Q -]

But Mummy Kroak can only smash things. A lot of wizards are more versatile.

What about if we compare each wizard at his/her peak? Prime vs. prime.

Fluffwise, the contenders for most powerful wizard in WHF in my estimation are Mazdamundi, Teclis, Morathi, and Nagash. At that level, it is difficult to measure who is better.

I've heard of most of those, but I don't know much about Morathi or her abilities.

In 5th edition, there used to be game rules for fielding 2nd generation, 3rd generation, 4th generation, or 5th generation Slann. Now Slann are just Slann.

That seems like a fun mechanic. I wonder why Games Workshop decided to abandon it. Was the difference between the generations pronounced?

In my head canon, a 2nd generation Slann and 5th generation Slann fight the same on a tabletop because the 5th generation is giving the battle his full attention and the 2nd generation Slann is multi-tasking, he is maintaining a mystic safeguard for the entire world, contemplating a mystery, and a taking nap while also fighting in a battle near him.

That's an interesting idea; I like that. The 2nd generation Slann are Lizardmen's ultimate multi-taskers.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

To answer the original question, who is the most powerful wizard?...

If we include gods, it's unequivocally Tzeentch.
If we omit gods, it's unequivocally Lord Kroak.


I read something similar to this a while back on the interwebs. They compiled a top ten list of most powerful characters/wizards (omitting gods) as follows...

1. Lord Kroak
2. First generation Slann
3. First generation Slann
   
4. First generation Slann
   
5. First generation Slann
   
6. First generation Slann
   
7. First generation Slann
   
8. First generation Slann
   
9. First generation Slann
   
10. Mazdamundi... just kidding, first generation Slann

 

[- Q -]

I read something similar to this a while back on the interwebs. They compiled a top ten list of most powerful characters/wizards (omitting gods) as follows...

1. Lord Kroak
2. First generation Slann
3. First generation Slann
   
4. First generation Slann
   
5. First generation Slann
   
6. First generation Slann
   
7. First generation Slann
   
8. First generation Slann
   
9. First generation Slann
   
10. Mazdamundi... just kidding, first generation Slann

The Slann for the win!

 

[Scalenex]

• Lord Kroak

• First generation Slann

• First generation Slann

• First generation Slann

• First generation Slann

• First generation Slann

• First generation Slann

• First generation Slann

• First generation Slann

• Mazdamundi... just kidding, first generation Slann

As boring as this top list is, it is accurate.

If you omit gods, Lizardmen have a near monopoly on demigods. The elves have some leaders who MIGHT be able to qualify as demigods but they aren't frontloaded with magic the way Slann are. The Everchosen of Chaos and Sigmar while alive MIGHT qualify as demigods but they also weren't frontloaded with lots of magic.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Fluffwise, the contenders for most powerful wizard in WHF in my estimation are Mazdamundi, Teclis, Morathi, and Nagash. At that level, it is difficult to measure who is better.

I would also add:

• Caledor Dragontamer
  
• Kairos Fateweaver
  
• Alarielle
  
• Ariel (the Wood Elf one, not the Little Mermaid one )

I just rewatched The Incredibles. For a metaphor, I would say Mr. Incredible has more raw power than Elastigirl, but Elastigirl's power is way more versatile.

*I'm going to exclude gods, Lord Kroak and all other First Generation Slanns for my discussion below.*

This is an interesting way of looking at it. In a similar vein, we could also consider the actual magical feats they accomplished.

The single greatest magical feat has to be the Great Vortex that Caledor Dragontamer helped create. However, since many other mages were involved in its creation, it's hard to quantify that one. So if we discount the Great Vortex, the next greatest magical feat is Nagash's Great Ritual. It killed every living thing in Nehekhara and was going resurrect and bind every corpse around the globe to his will had he not been struck down by Alcadizaar (with the help of the Skaven). To accomplish this he did have to ingest a great quantity of warpstone and use the stored energy of his Black Pyramid, but I'd argue that is the greatest magical feat after the creation of the great vortex.

So gods and first generation Slann aside, I'd say the greatest wizards in terms of the categories we've outlined has to be:

• Mazdamundi (raw power) - Slann are simply more potent spellcasters than humans, elves or any other race.
• Kairos Fateweaver (versatility) - He literally knows every spell in existence.
• Nagash (magical feats accomplished) - for the reasons mentioned in the paragraph above

With all that said, if I had to choose the next best magical contender (after gods, Kroak and other Gen 1 Slanns), I'd go with Nagash. He isn't outright as strong magically as Mazdamundi, but he accomplished more with less. Additionally he is far more inventive, being the father of Necromancy (and indirectly responsible for the creation of the vampires). Lastly, when someone manages to kill him, he comes back!

It's like who is faster, Superman or the Flash. We lesser mortals probably cannot even measure it.

Flash is faster. While there are comics where they are shown to be equal (or even Superman winning) , in more cases (and especially in recent publications) Flash is shown to be not only faster, but significantly faster. It's not even close.

Superman is fast, but the Flash can run so fast that he can time travel and cause all sorts of multi-verse shenanigans. The Flash can also vibrate the molecules of his body so fast that he can phase through solid materials.


https://screenrant.com/flash-superm...oes have raced,outrun Superman over the years.

 

[Scalenex]

Flash is faster. While there are comics where they are shown to be equal (or even Superman winning) , in more cases (and especially in recent publications) Flash is shown to be not only faster, but significantly faster. It's not even close.

My point is, that once you get immeasurably above a normal person, The question "Who is better?" becomes less relevant.

 

[Scalenex]

Lastly, when someone manages to kill him, he comes back!

Q. After two millennia in the shadows, does Nagash command the same respect from his minions that he once enjoyed?

A. Not really.
View attachment 13224

I have since abandoned my project of writing my own version of the End Times (with Blackjack and hookers), but one of my core things is the fourth and last time Nagash comes back from the dead, a larger number of undead leaders refuse to answer his call this time.

Nagash keeps losing, and he treats his lieutenants poorly.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

My point is, that once you get immeasurably above a normal person, The question "Who is better?" becomes less relevant.

I suppose that is where we differ. I love to quantify, rank and order things. In my mind, the question of "who is better?" is always relevant.

If the speed difference between Flash and Superman is irrelevant, than so would the magical prowess between Kroak and Mazdamundi/Nagash/Teclis/etc.

I have since abandoned my project of writing my own version of the End Times (with Blackjack and hookers), but one of my core things is the fourth and last time Nagash comes back from the dead, a larger number of undead leaders refuse to answer his call this time.

Nagash keeps losing, and he treats his lieutenants poorly.

In his defense, he does eventually become a god!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

If you omit gods, Lizardmen have a near monopoly on demigods. The elves have some leaders who MIGHT be able to qualify as demigods but they aren't frontloaded with magic the way Slann are. The Everchosen of Chaos and Sigmar while alive MIGHT qualify as demigods but they also weren't frontloaded with lots of magic.

How would you define/quantify a demigod in the Warhammer fantasy universe? What thresholds must be met in order to qualify?

What about someone like Be'lakor? Or a named greater daemon? What about Krakanrok the Black (though he is not a wizard)?

 

[J.Logan]

What about someone like Be'lakor? Or a named greater daemon? What about Krakanrok the Black (though he is not a wizard)?

I don't recall Be'lakor being that great a magic user, but he does represent one of those areas where I have a blank slate that I will happily fill with new knowledge.

How would you define/quantify a demigod in the Warhammer fantasy universe? What thresholds must be met in order to qualify?

Ooh, now that's a question that definitely needs answering to be able to accurately quantify power levels...

Take Sigmar, I'm reasonably certain that in life he was at the demigod status, I can't imagine that a mere peon would be granted ascension to full-divinity unless they were able to get as close as a mortal can reasonably reach while still being mortal. So, that means being a magic user is not a pre-requisite for demigod status, because Sigmar wasn't a wizard unless, I have missed some critical piece of lore. He has a hammer, a mighty hammer, that was gifted to him by Dawi, but a magic hammer does not make a man himself magical. Unless it is Mjolnir being hefted by the one who is worthy, but that's an exception.


*


But as to the original question of most powerful wizard, and whether it's Kroak? Well, the dude is pulling an Alma Wade and just willing himself not to shuffle his mortal coil. Even Nagash, when he is dead, is actually dead and in need of revival, where Kroak still shambles around on his lazy boy being a grandpa toad to the lizards. I will always find it very difficult to dispute a wizard who is powerful enough to just say no to dying and getting on with things.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I don't recall Be'lakor being that great a magic user, but he does represent one of those areas where I have a blank slate that I will happily fill with new knowledge.

I don't think Be'lakor matches up to any of the other wizards we listed previously. I was simply asking whether he (regardless of wizarding ability) could be considered a demigod or not by @Scalenex 's measure.

Ooh, now that's a question that definitely needs answering to be able to accurately quantify power levels...

Take Sigmar, I'm reasonably certain that in life he was at the demigod status, I can't imagine that a mere peon would be granted ascension to full-divinity unless they were able to get as close as a mortal can reasonably reach while still being mortal. So, that means being a magic user is not a pre-requisite for demigod status, because Sigmar wasn't a wizard unless, I have missed some critical piece of lore. He has a hammer, a mighty hammer, that was gifted to him by Dawi, but a magic hammer does not make a man himself magical. Unless it is Mjolnir being hefted by the one who is worthy, but that's an exception.

Agreed, Sigmar was definitely a demigod. He is pretty easy to quantify since he eventually ascends to godhood.

The question is, which other characters could also be considered demigods? @Scalenex floated the idea that the Lizardmen have near monopoly on demigods (I'm assuming that he is referring to the Slann). I largely agree with the statement, but I do wonder who else might make the cut in terms of demigod status.

But as to the original question of most powerful wizard, and whether it's Kroak? Well, the dude is pulling an Alma Wade and just willing himself not to shuffle his mortal coil. Even Nagash, when he is dead, is actually dead and in need of revival, where Kroak still shambles around on his lazy boy being a grandpa toad to the lizards. I will always find it very difficult to dispute a wizard who is powerful enough to just say no to dying and getting on with things.

The way I see it, it's pretty much...

1. Lord Kroak
2. Other first generation Slann
3. Everyone else

 

[J.Logan]

The question is, which other characters could also be considered demigods? @Scalenex floated the idea that the Lizardmen have near monopoly on demigods (I'm assuming that he is referring to the Slann). I largely agree with the statement, but I do wonder who else might make the cut in terms of demigod status.

The Cathayan dragons. At the very least, the Dragon Emperor and the Moon Empress, but a definite argument can be made for their biological kids as well. Important to note from my understanding is that they don't want godhood/divinity. I actually got God-Emperor of Mankind vibes from the Dragon Emperor, in the whole forming an empire that renounces worship of gods, stands against Chaos, and then buggers off to do whatever it is he's doing while letting his kids take over the day-to-day running of the empire. Difference - aside from being a celestial dragon - is that this emperor actually has a wife, who presumably tempers and keeps his worst habits in check.

So, yeah, Cathayan dragons are in the running for demigodhood.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The Cathayan dragons. At the very least, the Dragon Emperor and the Moon Empress, but a definite argument can be made for their biological kids as well. Important to note from my understanding is that they don't want godhood/divinity. I actually got God-Emperor of Mankind vibes from the Dragon Emperor, in the whole forming an empire that renounces worship of gods, stands against Chaos, and then buggers off to do whatever it is he's doing while letting his kids take over the day-to-day running of the empire. Difference - aside from being a celestial dragon - is that this emperor actually has a wife, who presumably tempers and keeps his worst habits in check.

So, yeah, Cathayan dragons are in the running for demigodhood.

I must admit that I know next to nothing about Grand Cathay. That said, your reasoning is sound. I'd say that it is be completely reasonable to label them as demigods.

 

[Scalenex]

In historical Earth, Eastern dragon legends are very different from Western dragon legends.

In Chinese mythology, dragons are kind of like the middle men or ambassadors between gods and mortals. That's pretty demigod to me.

It would make sense if Cathayan dragons were similar.

Since Warhammer is a High Fantasy Grim Dark reflection of historical Earth, maybe there should be a dark slant on Cathayan dragons. I don't know if they should be villains, but they could be in the moral gray zone some how.

Maybe they could require grisly sacrifices but that would make them too close to Sotek.

In Ancient Chinese myth, tricksters are a big deal, both and good evil. But most Chinese mythological creatures are a lot less powerful and majestic than dragons.