Poll: Place your bets... LOTR cave troll versus T-800 Terminator

As the picture states:

• fight takes place at night at a modern day construction site
• neither combatant can bring any weapons to the fight, but can use any tools or materials found at the construction site are fair game

Vote and discuss!

 

Although I would like the Cave troll to win I do think the intelligence and self learning of the T-800 will out way the brute strength of the Cave troll.

Grrr, !mrahil

 

It seems I do not have a proper idea of the T-800
It has been a long time since I watched any Terminator movie

Grrr, !mrahil

 

T-800 solos - a futuristic cyborg vs a dim-witted troll? Easy win for Skynet. No contest.

Something tells me that nostalgia for the original LOTR trilogy is hyping up some of its overrated minor villains (alongside Lurtz).

 

It can always be argued that how/when/where the combatants get to the combat site could make a difference. If they literally teleport right across from each other at the same time, that would likely favor the cave troll, just due to brute strength and apparent savagery. If the T800 has unmolested time to observe the troll, then I think I would side more with the Terminator. Even the Fellowship eventually figured out ways to take down the troll.

Regardless, the T800 will be very difficult to totally put down, due to backup power supplies and hardened metal chassis. I mean, the first T800 we experienced eventually required an hydraulic press to finally defeat it.

 

Because it knew what it was up against (a load of 1980s human policemen) and knew it didn't need brains to kill them.

Again, it knew it could take on a load of scraggy resistance soldiers and defeat them.

Against the troll, it would analyse its greater strength and work around it - meanwhile the troll is so dim it certainly won't learn to change its tactics against the Terminator. We shouldn't ignore the T800 from Terminator 2 because it's exactly the same model, we just get to see more of its actions and capabilities - with its ability to learn and anticipate different threats, the T800 could find a way to kill the Troll. Hell, it could probably punch through the Cave Troll's chest and rip out its heart if it got close enough - the troll may have an armoured back but its chest and stomach area don't look nearly as well-protected. The troll is also extremely ponderous and clumsy in its attacks, meaning it's not that difficult to dodge it.

Plus, the chain around its neck is a weakness the Terminator can exploit.

Enormous strength? Strength that cannot pierce mithril or do anything more than temporarily wind Boromir or Aragorn.

Absurdly high pain threshold? Sure, it takes a couple of arrows through the head, but only because the arrows probably missed its tiny brain . It also recoils quickly from a single sword cut to the arm (from Frodo) and is severely hampered when Aragorn stabs it with a Dwarf Vault Warden spear. Plus, while it seems to take a load of stab wounds in the shoulders from Merry and Pippin, it ultimately takes only a single arrow into its lower neck from Legolas to kill it off pretty much instantly - the Terminator could easily take advantage of that weak spot.

 

Short version, I'd say that the T-800 would prevail 95 times out of a 100. It's not impossible for the cave troll to win, but it is highly unlikely.


Long version:


While not definitive proof, consider that the Fellowship (with admittedly a fair bit of difficulty) were able to eventually fell the cave troll. Importantly, consider that they were able to accomplish this task with nothing more than medieval weaponry (swords, spears, bow & arrow). Now imagine that in that scene we replace the cave troll with the T-800, without doubt, it kills every living thing in that room without taking anything but superficial damage. They would pose zero threat to it and their only recourse would be to flee (or die). Admittedly, just because they can't inflict any significant damage on the T-800, does not mean that the cave troll can't (which I believe it can), but it does demonstrate the relative level of threat that the T-800 poses.



Strength - [slight advantage for the cave troll]

In terms of absolute strength the cave troll has the advantage, but probably not by as much as people might think. The troll can produce great amount of force, however, that strength is relatively uncoordinated. Also, the mithril example raised by @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl cannot be ignored. Even if we grant the premise that the mithril cannot be pierced, it was not plate armour, but more akin to mail, meaning that the force of the blow would still have been directly transferred into Frodo's body. Think of a bullet hitting a bullet-proof vest, the bullet is stopped but with any sufficient caliber you're walking away with broken ribs and some internal damage. Frodo on the other hand is severely winded, but doesn't seem to have any lasting effects.


The T-800 on the other hand has better relative strength (body mass to strength ratio) and is much more controlled and precise with its application of force. Additionally, the T-800 can produce more concentrated force (think pounds per square inch). Still, overall, the troll can probably hit harder.


Size/Weight/Reach - [massive advantage for the cave troll]

This is the troll's greatest advantage over the T-800. Without this, the fight would be over near instantly. The superior size of the troll means that the T-800 can be more easily grabbed/grappled/thrown. It also means that the cave troll can hit the T-800 well before the T-800 is in range to retaliate. Lastly, the superior height of the troll means that its most vital areas are out of reach of the T-800.


Durability - [massive advantage for the T-800]

We've seen swords, arrows and spears do significant damage against the cave troll (and eventually kill it), while at the same time, these primitive weapons are useless against a T-800. The T-800 can easily shrug off most gun fire (excluding extremely powerful calibers with armour specialized armour-penetrating rounds or futuristic energy weapons), let alone medieval weaponry. I'm betting the T-800, even unarmed, could punch straight into the flesh of the troll. Futuristic advanced metal alloy is going to be more resistant to damage than flesh and bone, even if it is the flesh and bone of a troll.


Pain threshold - [massive advantage for the T-800]

@Killer Angel stated that the cave troll had an "absurdly high pain threshold", and while that is true relative to a human, dwarf, elf or hobbit, the reverse is true when compared against a T-800. The T-800 registers damage, but doesn't feel pain. It doesn't even flinch in the face of grievous damage, while the cave troll can be made to react. When Frodo slashes the cave troll's hand, it recoils in pain. That's a blow from a tiny hobbit wielding a tiny sword. That same blow would have done nothing against the T-800. The T-800 wouldn't have been deterred at all by that strike. The troll also recoils in pain when speared by Aragorn and hit by Legolas' arrows. This is massively important, because it means that the T-800 can break any grapples initiated the troll. If Frodo could free himself from the troll's grasp, the T-800, even unarmed, could very easily do the same.


Intelligence - [massive advantage for the T-800]

While the T-800 does not possess the general intelligence of a person (but has more specialized intelligence than an average person), it is significantly more intelligent than a troll. We fully see the capability of the T-800 in T2, which despite @Killer Angel 's dismissal, definitely counts. Aside from being reprogrammed to protect John Conner, it possesses no more intelligence than any other T-800 unit (aside from the experience that it gains throughout the film). It is a typical T-800 unit and thus reflects the intelligence potential of the T-800's software and hardware. Moreover, it is preprogrammed with the knowledge, tactics and information to fulfill its primary function (to kill things). What does this mean against the cave troll? It means that the T-800 will be much better able to utilize its surroundings (the construction yard and the items contained within). It also means, that the T-800 will be able to better recognize and exploit the weaknesses of the troll. Lastly, the troll will not recognize the threat the T-800 possesses. In it's entire life, anything the size of a T-800 (a large person) could only produce x amount of force and sustain x-amount of damage, etc. Things that small cannot usually harm it. The troll would be completely unaware of the strength and toughness that the relatively small T-800 has. Know thy enemy. It would be no different than underestimating a cobra snake if you knew nothing of venom.


Endurance - [massive but inconsequential advantage for the T-800]

I say inconsequential, because I think this fight is over before either combatant fatigues. However, if it did go longer, the T-800 would never tire.


Senses - [slight advantage for the T-800]

The cave troll is accustomed to places with minimal light, but a T-800 can see perfectly in even absolute darkness. The T-800 could use this, along with its much smaller size and superior intellect to to move out of sight and sneak up on the troll. It might not chose to do this, but the option is available depending on the layout of the construction yard. It is an unlikely scenario, but not impossible, so still a slight advantage.


Killer Instinct - [slight to moderate advantage for the T-800]

Like a Saurus warrior, the T-800 was created for a very specific singular task... in this case, it's a terminator... it terminates things. A troll is big, powerful and dangerous, but it was not purpose design-built.

 

Kind of an odd statement. Completely baseless. Also illogical (but at least you came to that conclusion... eventually).

Yes I have seen the original movies (and for the record, very likely before you had). T2 even managed to capture the silver medal position on my top ten Sci-fi movies of all time list.

You and I have even had a very brief ( ) debate involving T2 a while back.

 

I think this runs the risk of playing into the point that @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl raised earlier on nostalgia bias. You previously suggested to ignore the capabilities demonstrated by the T-800 in T2. That's literally our best glimpse into the abilities of a Terminator as we got to see it from a much closer perspective over a longer period of time. And as laid out before, it is completely representative of the abilities of a typical T-800 unit.

And now we are to ignore the limitations demonstrated by the cave troll mithril scene? The problem is that it is not necessarily even an isolated incident. Earlier the troll grabs hold of Frodo's legs and we see two things. Firstly, the troll's attempt to drag/pick-up Frodo seems to be thwarted by Frodo grabbing hold of the pillar. One would think that a mighty troll should be easily able to overpower the hobbit's hold in that situation. Secondly, after the troll is grip is fended off with Frodo's sword strike, we see that the troll's grip on Frodo's legs seemed to have caused no damage. If that is the T-800 in the troll's place, he would rip through Frodo's grip on the pillar, would not have be deterred by the sword strike to his hand and would have shattered which ever bones he had a hold of. And yet there is even more damning evidence. Earlier to the Frodo scene, the Troll hurls Boromir (via a chain he is holding onto) into a solid stone wall. Boromir is heavily winded, but once again does not seem to sustain and long term damage. Taken together, this is pretty hard to ignore.

In short, dismissing the strengths of the T-800 and the limitations of the cave troll can quickly skew the analysis.

For all the reasons I laid out in my analysis , I think the T-800 holds the edge in either scenario you provided above. True, the troll would prefer the more open space, but even then the T-800 simply possesses too many advantages. And that's ignoring the fact that, depending on the parameters of the encounter, the T-800 might get the vehicle running in the first picture you provided.

Unfortunately, despite the size advantage of the troll, it's tough to beat a futuristic purpose-built killing machine.

 

The cave troll would act on instinct whether it was a surprise encounter or it had years of briefings. The poor creature is extremely dimwitted, it cannot formulate plans or strategies. I don't think you can really brief a cave troll.

I would agree that increasing the amount of information available (and/or the time to plan) will always play in favour of the more intelligent combatant.

I don't think that is a fair description of the T-800. It is always presented as a cold and calculating machine. It simply takes in information and reacts accordingly.


Upon a chance encounter with a cave troll I think it's thought process would likely be something like this:

• search its database (i.e. detailed files) for info on the troll, which it would not have since there are no trolls in the terminator universe
• it would then compare the troll to something quite similar in terms of shape/posture/anatomy, like a human or gorilla. This would give it basic information as the brain is likely located in the head, the neck is vulnerable, the eyes are vulnerable, if you sever the Achilles tendon (or equivalent) you disable its ability to effectively use its leg, it likely has a heart somewhere in the chest cavity, it probably has a spinal column, etc.
• it would then likely use the volumetric data of the troll to estimate its muscle cross-sectional area and from that approximate its force generating capabilities... thus roughly quantifying the level of threat its attacks pose.
• analyze its surroundings and determine what might be best used as a weapon. Also, what dangers are present and can they be taken advantage of
• it would then plan and carry out its attacks accordingly. Working to negate the strengths of the troll and focusing on exploiting its vulnerabilities. All the while updating the assumptions/calculations it made above as new information is revealed throughout the course of the fight.

Seeing as the T-800 is an A.I., this entire process would take very little time.

How would you define “drawn out”? It didn’t take the Fellowship that long to kill the creature and the T-800’s lethality is many times that of theirs.

 

3 more points in favour of the T-800:

• @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl actually agree on it. Whenever we find ourselves in any sort of agreement, it must signify some fundamental universal truth of reality
• in a battle between fantasy and sci-fi characters, barring magic, the sci-fi character is usually the safer bet
• when in doubt, go with Arnie!