TOW 2000 Renegades vs Chaos

[discomute]

Spoiler: Army lists

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Copy of Xinfernoc's Inferno [1999 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Lizardmen
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++ Characters [964 pts] ++

Xinfernoc [365 pts]
- Hand weapon
- General
- Lore Familiar
- Becalming Cogitation
- Battle Magic

Azcaramani [339 pts]
- Great weapon
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Carnosaur
- Armour of Meteoric Iron
- Talisman of Protection

Aeontezin [260 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Shield
- Cold One
- Giant Blade
- Bedazzling Helm
- Horned One

++ Core Units [639 pts] ++

10 Skink Skirmishers [55 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)
- Vanguard

10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)

5 Jungle Swarms [200 pts]
- Hand weapons

20 Temple Guard [334 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Shields
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Revered Guardian (champion)
- Standard bearer

++ Special Units [196 pts] ++

4 Kroxigors [196 pts]
- Great weapons
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)

++ Rare Units [200 pts] ++

Troglodon [200 pts]
- Venomous talons
- Venom spray
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Skink Oracle with hand weapon (required)

---
He had
- lord on a manticore ogre blade mark of Nurgle
- sorcerer in chaos warrior unit Tzeentch infernal puppet
- chosen knights nurgle
- 3 dragon ogres
- hounds
- forsaken
- hero on chariot khorne
- chariot

Just a straight battle today as my opponent hasn't played in a while

Turn 1



My turn - I did not like how this looked. Deployment was difficult as he has a lot more units. I didn't think anything I had could beat the manticore and I would also really struggle with the knights and where they were positioned. My plan was really to make an honest game of it and get lucky.

Turn 1 - him


One thing I've been practicing angling my skirmish bases in a direction which means when they charge and win thet shoot off to the side. Both his manticore and dragon ogres hit the swarms and the question was whether they could do 5 wounds in a single combat? Nope, he only got through 20. My carnosaur wasn't far enough back and the GG follow up meant the dragon ogres were in combat.

He focuses his magic on my old blood / horned one but couldn't get a wound through.

Turn 2 - me


My skinks has been doing a decent job of shooting and has hit a few hounds. My old blood charges his unit trying to tie up his sorcerer so I can actually cast but it was a bad match up and they win combat by static, I GG they restrain. My carnosaur hurt the dragon ogres but they win combat via the swarms thats left. His manticore follows into the Kroxigor.

I manage to get a charge off from the Trog to the knights. I carefully work out the combat in my head and if I can cast hammerhands I should get 1.5 wounds. Without lances I should live for a turn. It's the best chance I've got but if course I totally forgot counter charge. The trog is deleted instantly.

Turn 2 - him


The battle is going how I expect which is badly.

His chariot charges my old blood and his dragon ogres charge my carnosaur. The chariot doesn't get impact hits because it's too close. He rolls poorly but it's generally a better match up for me. It GG and I restrain. Meanwhile the Carnosaur wipes out the dragon ogres, overruns a long way and just clips the edge of his infantry unit. The manticore deletes the Kroxigor as expected, but it's not looking too bad.

Turn 3 - me



The old blood destroys the chariot and follows into the forsaken.

As expected the carnosaur beats the unit, but he rolls terribly on his leadership and flees. The carnosaur runs them down and reforms. Suddenly I'm looking good and I think I might be able to win this, or at least put up a good fight.

Battle magic continues to do very little.

Arcane urgency fails and the manticore has an easy charge.

Turn 3 - him

The manticore indeed charges the temple guard in the flank. The hounds don't charge which I thought was interesting. The chariots and knights move up.

The TG champion issues a challenge. Whilst we lose, we use our stubborn to FBIGO. The manticore can't contain himself and he follows up.

Turn 4 - me


A massive turn for me here. The carnosaur decides to charge the lord. It's a bad match up for me but the carnosaur will be at initiative 6 so I'm hoping to do a few wounds and win with static. Odds are I can't stay alive.

The old blood was going to charge the knights. It's a terrible match up but they are in a marching column. I assumed they could not counter charge in a marching column but they can and therefore can use drilled. As this was an honest mistake by me my opponent lets me take it back. Instead I charge the hounds who decide to flee. I redirect into the manticore for the extra+1 flank. I think this is a happy error by me. My only chance is to cause the chaos lord to flee (he can't FBIGO because of unit strength) and if that happens I need to catch him.

In the combat - he rolls terribly. I am very lucky with my armour saves. The carnosaur lives on 1 wound. I think I do a wound or two back but the manticore loses and breaks! However - he rolls 16 on his flee and puts himself past the knights so I have to follow into them. I miss my chance to win.

Turn 5 & 6



He rallies his manticore who ends up locked into combat with the TG. For multiple turns he wins combat but rolls dreadfully and the TG turn into a tar pit. They finish the game on 5 models so he doesn't even get VPs.

The knights kill the carnosaur. The old blood kills the chariot. The knights and old blood end up in combat but they can't hurt each other. Old blood with a 2+ save, tough 5 and -1 to hit. But Aeontezin has minimal AP and knights at 2+ save means it's just a stalemate.

When the game ends in convinced I've loss. No doubt if the turns go on he will win. But ultimately it's a 1390 to 1140 victory. There's so much points in the TG Slann unit which he gets zero for. An extra turn and that unit is dust.

Aftermath

Great game. I was very very lucky the whole game, and I still scraped by. I reckon I hit 2/3 of all my 5+ armour saves for the carnosaur. The old blood also rolled very well with a lot of 4+ or 3+'s. He failed some big leadership rolls (in fairness he didn't take a BSB). His manticore just could not get the job done against those temple guard, one more death and it would have been a draw. I think even getting into a position where I could beat his beast of a Lord was fortunate (and honestly more luck than clever positioning by me).

I think I did a reasonable job of positioning and keeping his knights (and to a lesser extent manticore) out of combat for as long as possible.

A couple of mistakes from me. I thought the ogre blade was on the chariot at the start, which is why I was hunting it with the skinks. Forgetting counter charge with the Troglodon was costly but of course my Troglodon is pretty ordinary it's just a cool unit I've painted.

I don't think my opponent made too many mistakes it just wasnt his day with the dice. Probably his dragon ogres should have refused to charge the carnosaur and made me wait a turn to get it into combat. But I can't think of much else. It's hard to win when the dice is against you.

 

[discomute]

Edit - all fixed! Thanks to the old ones

 

[Kalisto]

Thank for the report! My suggestion is to write in word and then copy past (with pictures added later)

Both dragonogres, chaos chariot, tzeentch magician are OP. Knights and Manticore are really good. Our units are unfortunately not so good as well.
You had luck, he had a tougher list in my opinion and i guess you could change a bit your list and have much better results. I don't think it's a problem of play in itself but a bit of army list...So if i may give some suggestions check below.

1) Troglodon, I understand you want to play it but sincerely now that stegadons give +1 to cast there is no reason to continue play them....
2) Kroxigor...well I don't like them but still better of Troglodon, just a question, do you usually attack fully with everyone? I would consider to play only 3 to increase manovrability.
3) magic items...Glyph Necklace is one of the two good items we got. Tzunki blade is the other.
Consider a tzunki blade and a talisman of protectio non the cold one hero, or a great weapon, bedazzling helmet and hide of cold one to have 2+ even when 2 handed (and a charmed shield for a ward save) stupidity at 8 with 3 dice is ok, at 9 even better so horned one is not an autoinclude anymore.
About carnosaur Glyph Necklace is nearly obligatory, together with meteoric iron you have a double 5+ save AND magic resistance for 65 points. Yes you need an oldlord on carnosaur but it's worth it.
4)I tried becalming cogitation severaltimes and I am not satisfied with it. Lore familiar is meh, but i play elementalism. Consider that for the same point you can buy ruby ring and still have 5 good spells, so with battle magic there is even a less reason to buy it.
Another thing...have you ever miscasted? I risked twice to have the whole unit explode, so i like earthing rod to get a reroll and save a lot of temple guards.

Recently I played a 2 days tournament with 26 players and reached 4Th place with W/D/L and 3rd place by victory points with renegade. So it's hard but it's possible to get some good results!

 

[discomute]

1) Troglodon, I understand you want to play it but sincerely now that stegadons give +1 to cast there is no reason to continue play them....

Absolutely it's a god awful unit. But it's painted. Also I'm not necessarily going for the most powerful build - the last thing I need is my opponent rocking up with a dragon.

Yes I need to get my stegadon painted but after renegades my TG and Slann are now the priority.

2) Kroxigor...well I don't like them but still better of Troglodon, just a question, do you usually attack fully with everyone? I would consider to play only 3 to increase manovrability.

4 I think works because you avoid a panic test when one dies. Additionally with the wide units they generally get to swing. They are good at cav but those chosen knights are something else. Also... they are painted

3) magic items...Glyph Necklace is one of the two good items we got. Tzunki blade is the other.
Consider a tzunki blade and a talisman of protectio non the cold one hero, or a great weapon, bedazzling helmet and hide of cold one to have 2+ even when 2 handed (and a charmed shield for a ward save) stupidity at 8 with 3 dice is ok, at 9 even better so horned one is not an autoinclude anymore.
About carnosaur Glyph Necklace is nearly obligatory, together with meteoric iron you have a double 5+ save AND magic resistance for 65 points. Yes you need an oldlord on carnosaur but it's worth it.

I think the ogre blade is nearly always better than the blade of tzunki.

The hero is usually there because I'm.trying not to OP the build. If he doesn't take a manticore that carnosaur would have rolled the army.

I absolutely love the idea of a hide and a bedazzling helm on a renegades list. I'll give that a shot for sure. (But I did such a good job at conversion to a horned one... I don't think it will be permanent)

Edit actually you can't do that, both the bedazzling helm and hide of the old ones are magic armour and neither is common so you can't run it on the same model.

4)I tried becalming cogitation severaltimes and I am not satisfied with it. Lore familiar is meh, but i play elementalism. Consider that for the same point you can buy ruby ring and still have 5 good spells, so with battle magic there is even a less reason to buy it.
Another thing...have you ever miscasted? I risked twice to have the whole unit explode, so i like earthing rod to get a reroll and save a lot of temple guards.

Yeah the 27" is great but much better when you're outside the temple guard so can really skirmish around to ensure distance. I think it was a bad combo. The lore familiar was a waste for sure - RRR was the better option, not sure why I did that one.

Yes I've had a miscast and it decimated my TG. I can never fit an earthing rod in, I'm always dropping stuff to get it where I want e.g. no musician in TG.

Recently I played a 2 days tournament with 26 players and reached 4Th place with W/D/L and 3rd place by victory points with renegade. So it's hard but it's possible to get some good results!

That's fantastic effort for our faction!

 

[Kalisto]

Edit actually you can't do that, both the bedazzling helm and hide of the old ones are magic armour and neither is common so you can't run it on the same model.

Sorry missed that!
About kroxigor I don't think you have to worry about panic, ld 7 with 3 dice (now) is quite a lot, if you fail is often FBIGO anyway. If you talk about terradons or skinks with ld 5 is another things...
Ogre blade will be probably be increased to 75 points soon (4th july?) so we have to consider other options =)

 

[discomute]

Alright just a bump as this full write up has been revived!