8th Ed. 2 questions

[vaalnn]

Hi guys, just a few things that we weren't sure about after a 2250 game last night, my lizzies against a HE player.

1) I misscast, pop cupped hands and sure enough the high elf general ends up rolling on the misscast table. I can't remember which result exactly he rolled, but it stated that D6 casting dice are removed from the pool. My opponent decided categorically that this meant the dice were lost from MY casting pool, and at that point in the game he was performing rather miserably, so I obliged. Is this correct?

2) This is bit more complicated, but I'll do my best to explain. My opponent has 3 blocks of 15 infantry (sword masters, white lions and phoenix guard) positioned in a row, so close that they're basically one unit. I charge with 2 units of 25 (5x5) saurus and an EOTG. To get the maximum number of troops into combat my saurus units are each positioned in contact with 2 HE units (the middle HE unit is in combat with both saurus units) and the EOTG charges into the front of the rightmost HE unit. 1st round of combat is a draw. 2nd round of combat I loose but all units hold because of having more ranks left than my opponent/stubborn, by this point the HE units only have a handful of models left in each, but still enough so that my saurus are still in combat with 2 units each and the combat res is treated over the entire combat. During the next magic phase I reduce 2 of the HE units to a single model so that by the combat phase the units are all split up (not one large combat anymore). I kill both of the single models in my attack, but his one remaining unit gets quite a few kills on my one saurus unit. So finally heres my question - my opponent decided that the combat is still treated as a whole, despite the units being separated by the beginning of the combat phase. This meant that I only got a single wound from each of the units I destroyed and lost the combat as a whole by a fair margin, my EOTG and both saurus units flee and I basically loose the game. Is this correct? It just seemed fairly harsh at the time that only one of my units did poorly but half my army is destroyed.

thanks for reading, hope to hear shortly that my opponent was a filthy, cheating pointy eared girl-coward.

 

[Arli]

1. This is incorrect! The miscast table results fall on him completely. Your spell dice should not be deminished at all.

2. Sounds kind of hokey. The combat rez should be determined at the end of the combat. Now, it should still be as a whole, but if he only has a few models left in combat, you should have gotten at least a draw (if not a win). Now, baring bad dice rolls, you should have been able to win the combat res. I could be incorrect about this, but I think your opponent has taken advantage of you (especially by making you reduce you're power dice).

 

[vaalnn]

Thanks for clearing up the misscast issue.

I read the rulebook section on multiple combats this morning, its terribly vague and doesn't even consider the possibility of units becoming seperated from multiple combats by taking casualties. Theres just a few lame diagrams pointing out the obvious things (adding up flank charges/banners etc).

 

[boreas]

The first one is still debatable, unfortunately. Although most players will agree that the whole effect of the miscast should be transferred to the opponent, the wording is still that the Power Pool is reduced by d6. So yeah, be prepared to face people saying that they do not have a power pool in that magic phase, only a dispell pool. Some will consider that, having a dispell pool, no d6 are lost either way. And in the worst case, some will insist that you do have a Power pool in that phase and that, as such, it's reduced by d6...

Hopefully, another revision of the FAQ will be coming out...

Phil

 

[Vilicate]

So, you had to engage multiple units even with his units HAVING to be 1" apart?

That rule applies to both friends and foes now, to prevent similar situations such as this. I am pretty familiar with this tactic, because I used to use it with my high elves all the time. "you want to charge the spearmen? okay, well you're going to have to charge these two lion chariots as well."

Again, he must have his units 1" apart.

 

[Gor-rok]

Remember for Cupped Hands, you roll on the miscast table first, then choose whether or not to bounce it's effect onto the opponent.

The rule says explicitly that the miscast is 'ignored' when you use it. So, no losing power dice for you. The enemy wizard in line of sight that you transfer it to 'suffers it's effects'. If he had power dice he could lose them, it just so happens he does not.

 

[vaalnn]

I don't have a copy of the rulebook infront of me right now, but I'm aware of the "no unit within 1" of an enemy" rule, I didn't see a rule on minimum distance from a friendly unit, are you sure about this? I'll be certain to re-read the rules when I get back from work today

vaalnn

 

[Bibamus]

regarding the cupped hands issue. while i never thought of this untill now i actually agree that we lose the dice. there is one power pool and 1 dispell pool and the table specifically mentions that dice are lost from teh power pool, not that the wizard loses dices or anything similar with basically the same effect but worded on the wizard instead of being worded arround the whole winds of magic thingy.
it sure does suck for us but maybe that was GW's intention giving that most of the miscast results are quite harmless to a lone wizard, especially if he has the lore of life, they probably wanted a soling negative effect for rolling a miscast, so allthough some, if not most, armies have a way to shrug off the effects of the miscast, at least once, or just stay away from any friendlyes with the wizard, the lost dice will allways be there.
the errata might come and state that the dice are lose from the dispell pool, or not at all, but untill then, i'll argue RAW

 

[Gor-rok]

regarding the cupped hands issue. while i never thought of this untill now i actually agree that we lose the dice.

I see where you're coming from, but allow me to respectfully argue my case.

Losing power dice is an effect of the miscast, correct? It's listed individually under the miscast table results, not in the general miscast rules, and it doesn't happen with a 10-12 result anyway.

The rule for Cupped Hands says "On a 2+, the miscast is ignored...". As in, it doesn't happen in the first place.

The rule continues, "...and if there is an enemy wizard within LOS he will suffer it's effects..."

One of the effects a hypothetical enemy wizard may or may not suffer from our roll on the table is losing D6 dice from the power pool. He doesn't have a power pool at this point, so he can't lose any dice. Neither can we, because we are not suffering the effect of anything.

I think, even trying to go all-in RAW, it's a tough argument that we are affected by something we ignored, whether or not it affected someone else. But that's just my interpretation.

 

[Bibamus]

valid point. i'd talkit over with my opponent and then roll a dice if we can't agree. it also depends if the miscast happens on the last spell you cast when the power pool is empty it really doesn't matter. i can see both sides tough of the argument tough.