8th Ed. 3 Lizards in the top 10 at SCGT

Do you have a link to his blog? I'd love to check it out while we hope and wait for him to post his list.

 

Raffazza.blogspot.co.uk

 

=> Fair enough. At least I take the time to try to make my actual intentions clear in posts. It's waaaaay too common for people to just blast words onto a screen without realizing that they may be taken in a way other than intended. I try to identify times when what I say may be misread and endeavor to clarify intent. Better to not leave it open to interpretation, I would think.

Which leads me to why I responded as I did.

Read this line:

Now "hear" it as part of a live conversation. Think back to the times you've head, literally heard, someone say "not that you asked." Have you ever heard that said in an open, honest, and helpful tone? I haven't. It's always (in my experience) a precursor to some sort of snide or 'cute' comment meant to take a pot shot at what is being responded to. I literally have never, ever, heard it used in any other way.

So, I made the assumption that the poster was assuming I was trying to make an anti-comp statement (something for which I am well known and take a decent amount of heat over) and that he was propping up the comped event with statistics to pre-emtively shut down my line of reasoning (that I had not stated but that I assumed he was assuming I was following).


If that was NOT his intent, then I truly apologize to him...but gosh, look what happens when we DON'T take the time to address the words we choose with some sort of "I don't mean it poorly" (as I often do, and as you have pointed out is somehow a bad thing to do).


Gotta love it when pot shots are defended and clarity in tone is derided.
Awesome.

Yes, that was sarcasm.


For the record, and to be clear, I really did just want to know if there were rules changes in place so that the lists and success could be given context. If it had turned out to be non-comped, I would want to investigate further to, oh, I dunno, maybe learn to be a better player from more successful generals.

Finding out that Lizards got hosed by the comp (after my initial post and reply) also means I don't need to check into it, as the rules - benefiting or crushing to lizards - are not the standard game and thus lessons do not apply to that standard.

 

So I emailed Dan (TO) to ask if he could shed any light. He offered these pearls:

Recurring theme being Tetto.

 

Awesome thanks man! I think Daly had the "out there" list. Sounds like very similar to the list he runs in his YouTube reports.

 

Putzfrau: Do you know what youtube channel that is? I'd love to check it out? I've not found any good channels run by Lizardmen players.

 

believe his channel is entitled Justmedaly.

https://www.youtube.com/user/JustMeDaly/videos

 

Awesome.
Gonna watch this tonight whilst I sculpt me a tree.

 

Ugh. I knew that this was going to turn into a "comp isn't warhammer!" argument.

Suffice it to say, a rules pack which has an FAQ shorter than all GW's FAQs and erratas, and which largely attempts to soften the field without outright restrictions, does indeed have relevance.

In this case, it appears that Lizardmen players would still rather Skink clouds than Saurus, that Tetto and a Slann are believed to be largely mandatory, Saurus characters are everywhere, and a cavalry bus does better than monster mash - even in an environment that should discourage the worst Purplefun, pitofwin, Nurgle Fun Prince lists.

 

A friend who played next to the cav bus at the comp. Told me he had a mounted oldblood with piranha blade (not sure on other items) a mounted scar vet bsb with gw and banner of the eternal flame. Sat in the second rank of the bus. Another mounted scar vet unsure of his equipment.
Tetto'eko
blocks of chorts set up 2 ranks deep 1 withTetto in it. Then lots of skirmishers. Not on how many units of each he had.
Then a coldone bus of 18 riders with full command. Deployed 5 wide.
Unsure on the rest of his army but I would have a few units of chameleon skinks and a unit of terradons or rippers.
Vanguard the bus, in combat turn 1 or 2.

I'm try a 2k version of this list tonight at the Den.

 

I'm going to reiterate my thoughts on the interesting nature of the LACK of skinks.
Everyone seems to be saying the cloud the cloud! But in fact none of these armies are the cloud. They aren't. I see them as interesting because they have serious heavy duty centers. What's more interesting is all three lists don't do the cloud and all three finished very well. Noticeably well.

For those that feel comp make all results invalid that's cool, I guess you don't need to continue following the thread. For the rest of us, it maybe offers an insight that pure cloud is not the only way. Maybe there is something to be said for serious centers of combat troops. That is interesting to me. Maybe the cloud isn't the only way in competative Warhammer.

 

You'll have to elaborate on how these are not cloud lists.

Every single one was nearly 100% skink core.

Skink cloud lists have always had a certain combat punch. In 7th it was a skroxigor unit, now apparently it's a TG horde, at least was so in this specific tournament.

With the one exception of the bus, these lists are extremely typical exactly what you'd expect to see lizardmen armies. Even the bus list is identical to the others, with a cold one bus instead of a slann and tg horde.

Daly doing we'll shows us that slann not be necessary, but none of these armies tell me anything I didn't already know about Saurus characters, skink core, terradons, and tetto'eko.

 

I disagree with the assessment that the lists are not Skink cloud.

Sure, there is no mention of the Skink skirmishers in the first 2 lists from Dan H, but I think that is more of an oversight then an actual lack of skirmishers.

I argue that any list which does not have either: 1-2 Decent Saurus Blocks or Cohorts with multiple Krox is pretty much a Skink cloud.

These players did realize that to get big points and big wins you still need at least 1 powerful combat unit (Templeguard for 2 and Cold One bus for Daly), but I still argue that their core is effectively skink cloud.

As I see it, the purpose for the Cohort units in all of those lists is as a bunker for Tetto, while still keeping decent 'cloud-like' movement and shooting. As a tertiary goal, those units can be used as flankers to provide some static res.

If by pure cloud you mean that not all of the choices are skirmishers, then I agree, its not pure cloud. The core would play just like a cloud though.

 

=> Only if you make it one. That's not what I was doing, at all. All I was doing was explaining why I was asking my questions and then saying why, for me, I no longer felt the need to investigate the results further.

Nowhere in there was I arguing against comp. That's on you.

 

Nope, didn't say you did.

But you did clearly say that it wasn't 'standard' Warhammer, and therefore anything that happened doesn't matter for 'standard' Warhammer.' All I was doing was explaining that I think you're wrong on this as the game is still played same, and the comp seems to have been largely ignored (or at least played very little effect on list building). That means that we can, in fact, draw a number of lessons from it - not the least being the styles of Lizardmen lists which remain popular and successful regardless of hard comp, soft comp like this, or no comp at all.

Edit: On another note, Raff has updated his blog.

 

Nice!

 

Looks like the way how to play LM in the 8th ed has finally emerged.
CO buss, partydeathslann or TG horde. all with lots of skinks. and all with tetto.

Raffaz blog is nice to read and Dalys CO bus replays are awesome

 

=> True, but replying directly to my post with a lament that this was turning into a comp/anti-comp debate was pretty close.

=> Which it's not.

=> It may matter on some level, I suppose, but as far as what I, personally, can learn from it...not so much. If the rules are modified away from the norm, positively or negatively, the results of the games played will be less applicable to my own experiences. Since I said "I" don't need to check into it, I was clearly talking about how the lessons won't help me.

=> The games are not played in a vacuum though, right? Other armies are involved, not only on a game-by-game basis, but also for determining the overall outcome. I don't know about others, but for me and for many people I know the event rules do actually shape what gets put in an army. Even if the Lizard players did not feel a direct impact on their builds, it's fair to say that it's likely other lists were impacted, to say nothing of any actual gameplay house rules that governed the action independent of the lists.

For instance, using a popular example, if players know ahead of time that there will be no Blood & Glory at an event, that's a rule the encourages Warrior armies to take the awful core-chariot lists and practically no banners.

Just sayin' - Regardless of where one's opinion comes down on comp/house rules, their existence does impact list designs and results at events in a way that differs from how playing the standard game does (that's kinda the point of why TO's use comp, isn't it?). When I attempt to become a better Warhammer general, I regularly ask these sorts of questions because I need to know I am talking about the same game that I play compared to the game others play. Not judging, just clarifying.

My Hammer of Judgment strikes heavily in other threads. No need for it here.

 

I believe there's always something to be learned.


The most important thing, I believe at least, is looking at results from various systems or lack of systems as a whole.

When there is massive similarity between "good" lists across various comp/no comp systems I believe it makes a pretty definitive overall statement about lizardmen in the general competitive environment.

In terms of what specifically can be gained right here and now, between two of the largest fantasy tournaments in the world, it's fairly obvious an all skink core is still sitting at the top of the pile.

IMO, it's fairly obvious that tetto'eko plays a very prominent role in all of these lists, even tho there is slight variation.

While some type of combat punch isn't required, as seen by Jeff's list, lizardmen are still not a combat oriented army. However between the TG horde or the cold one bus, it seems you can perform well with a single combat block.

A "mixed arms" list or a more combat oriented list with multiple blocks has yet to perform well, at least relative to the lists with an all skink core and one combat block (tg or cobus).

I think these are fairly safe assumptions for "best of the best" super competitive warhammer.

If anyone disagrees I would kindly ask them to merely support their view with relevant examples. I love Saurus blocks. I want the lizardmen to be a combat oriented army with blocks of saurus/cav/tg supported by monsters with skinks playing a secondary role.

However, that simply doesn't seem to be the case. If my intent was to be competitive I would focus on a party slann + tetto'eko, a skink core, and scar vet cowboys. Some mixture of TG, terradons, chamo skinks, and single sallies would fill it out, depending on personal choice. The cobus would be very similar, merely require the slann to be dropped for more characters on cold ones.

I believe having a slann less list, even one that still revolves around a similar idea (skink core, tetto'eko, chaff, co characters, vanguarding), is a pretty cool step away from seventh edition, even if it is a small step.