8th Ed. 40 Skink horde Vs. Skrox horde

[TheWhiteWhale]

Hey all. Still pretty new to WHFB but have been getting a lot of games in in the last few months and gaining some good experience. I've utilized the standard Skrox horde to somewhat varied results. I'm considering substituting the skrox horde with a 40 horde of straight skinks with Javelin and shields for a few reasons.

1.) Krox have 3 attacks each and take up four slots on the tray. Yes they hit a LOT harder and cause fear but I've found that unless the unit i'm fighting is outside of BSB range (highly unlikely), Fear is hopelessly unreliable (I've only gotten fear off around five or six times in my 20+games). I'm thinking the extra poisoned attacks may be more valuable than the krox attacks. Especially considering I can throw more javelins out when being charge or harrassing and baiting.

2.) This set up would most be most effective with Life. Flesh to Stone on the Throne gets us a horde with T6, a 6+ armor, and a 6+ parry. Perfect for baiting, especially when charged, as they're pumping out 20 poisoned attacks regardless of range and with no -1 to hit.

3.) Fighting in three ranks gives us 30 poisoned attacks. If going with light, Birona's gives us 20 poisons up front and another 20 for the two extra ranks. Combine that with Speed of Light and not we're really cooking.

4.) Burning through 40 Skinks would take some time. Especially with Flesh to Stone at T6.

5.) The Skrox unit with FC comes in at 327. The 40 horde with FC comes in at 220. More than 100 pts. less. Freeing up room for other upgrades and units that may be more valuable. (more chams, a unit of terradons, more items, etc.)



Being a new player, I bring this up to see if I’m missing something. Obviously Fear is the biggest factor here. As well as the strong attacks of the Krox. Of course this is all theory-craft as I haven’t had a chance to test it out yet. Hopefully I’ll get a chance this weekend at my local shop.

 

[n810]

Keep in mind skink poison attacks are only when using ranged attacks.
So they aren't going to kill much in close combat.





ps, Cohorts use hand weapons in close combat

 

[Batu]

No poison in CC only shooting. Also thrown weapons have long range now. so -1 over 6" for most.


T2 WS2 AS 6 fighting in 2 ranks unless horde hampers the unit.

Skink Cohorts for the points are probably the absolute worst CC unit in the game. The only one worse is the Skrox unit simply because it cost so much more.

Putting Kroxigors in Skink units is like putting a good wine in a coke bottle. Dumb.

While people think the skrox units are going to do well they really do not. the krox only hit 50% and the skinks will take so many casualties you will lose steadfast, if you have it, quickly.

Seeing either unit on the field is very exciting, for the opponent. About any infantry block in the game is going to absolutely crush skinks.

Until cohorts are 6 points WS3 T3 with Spears, LA / SH they simply wont stand up to anything. Most other infantry is cheaper and SIGNIFICANTLY better.

Spend the points on small screening units like in 7th and buy something else to fight with.

Saurus good

skinks ... blow in CC

 

[Gor-rok]

Putting Kroxigors in Skink units is like putting a good wine in a coke bottle. Dumb.

I can't comment on plain ranked skinks, as I never use them. However, I run at least one unit of skrox (24 & 3) in pretty much every game I play, and the only time they perform poorly is when I play like an idiot.

They're not saurus; I can't just ram them into whatever I like head on and expect them to survive. As flankers, can openers, and monster hunters, they work far better for me than saurus- more speed, S6 hits, and cheap ranks.

I also use them to tar pit high strength, low attack units like White Lions. Consider: a skink and a saurus have exactly the same chance to be hit, wounded, and to save against an attack from that unit. Each dead skink costs me less than half as much.

I'm all for people having differing opinions, but I'd be reluctant to dismiss something as "Dumb" when it works well for a lot of people.

 

[Batu]

Putting Kroxigors in Skink units is like putting a good wine in a coke bottle. Dumb.

I can't comment on plain ranked skinks, as I never use them. However, I run at least one unit of skrox (24 & 3) in pretty much every game I play, and the only time they perform poorly is when I play like an idiot.

They're not saurus; I can't just ram them into whatever I like head on and expect them to survive. As flankers, can openers, and monster hunters, they work far better for me than saurus- more speed, S6 hits, and cheap ranks.

I also use them to tar pit high strength, low attack units like White Lions. Consider: a skink and a saurus have exactly the same chance to be hit, wounded, and to save against an attack from that unit. Each dead skink costs me less than half as much.

I'm all for people having differing opinions, but I'd be reluctant to dismiss something as "Dumb" when it works well for a lot of people.

Using the skrox against 1 particular enemy unit and saying it is a viable unit does not make sense. Lets look at the attacks each unit will have.

Unit with 3 kroxigors (27 skinks) 9 wide vs White lions 6 wide 4 ranks

Elves will go first with 12 attacks 8 initial hits 4 rerolls (3 hits) so 11 hits. wound 9 maybe 10. no save.

7 skinks will hit on 5+ 2.33 hits. wound 1 maybe 2. Elves save 5+ so 1 wound probably.
Kroxigors hit 4.5 say 5. wound 4 no save.

So Skrox unit kills 5 elves.
Elves kill 9 or 10.

Elves have standard 2 ranks
Skrox have standard 3 ranks

Skrox lose by about 4. LD 7-4 =3 Started with 27 skinks and now down to 17. they will be stubborn 1 more turn then they will break.

Next Round of CC
15 elves vs 17 skinks 3 krox

Next round will be similar.

Each unit about 315 points. Skrox are dead in 2 rounds of combat

While they move fast, any opponent worth a damn will not be giving you flank charges. AND if the SKROX unit is charged in the flank, well they basically auto break.

All that, and only 315 points! lol

 

[Gor-rok]

If games always played out the way you describe, where one unit mindlessly crashes head on into another, then sure, saurus are better most every time. But games don't, and saurus aren't.

It's not that skrox are "better" than anything in our opponent's lists- because it's not about our opponent's lists. It's about the options we have in ours. If I could take White Lions or Chaos Chosen, sure, I'd choose those. But I can't. And for the role I need in the army I'm running, Skrox fit the bill.

I need something 1) Fast 2) Strong enough to crack armor/high T 3) With ranks enough to cause disruption/stay steadfast for a turn or two 4) With plenty of cheap wounds. Skrox do that well enough. 6 wide gives me 6 ranks (2 from the krox), and unless I play poorly, it's enough to last the battle.

Besides White Lions, here's some units I'd rather use them against than Saurus:
Bloodletters
Bestigors
Monsters
Doomwheel
Heavy Cavalry

It's true, any opponent worth a darn will not give me flank charges. I have to set them up for it, and when I do it's usually my skrox that are fast enough to get there.

Depending on your style of play, skrox may not be a good investment. That does not mean they are a "bad" or "dumb" choice for everyone else. If they didn't help me win games, I wouldn't take them. If they don't help you win games, don't take them. Just keep an open mind.

 

[Juhaaha]

Big no no for horde, but 6-7 wide and X deep with 3 Kroxies seems nice. It's pretty expensive, and with same amount of points you'd get unit of 30+ Saurus warriors.

Against basic infantry they seem to do well (on paper.. I have only used them in 1 game so far and due bad deployment they got destroyed by witch elfs cause they didnt flee long enough)

 

[TheWhiteWhale]

Thanks for the input all. I'm thinking with all the points they're worth I may be better off with a separate unit of Saurus. Has anyone had success with running straight Krox in a 2x2 or3x2 formation? A guy at my shop runs this all the time and swears by it but it seems to me like it's simply a point sink. Maybe use them as hammers ala Rat Ogres on the flank. Seems hard to pull off with their base movement and when ran like this they are special choices.

 

[Batu]

Thanks for the input all. I'm thinking with all the points they're worth I may be better off with a separate unit of Saurus. Has anyone had success with running straight Krox in a 2x2 or3x2 formation? A guy at my shop runs this all the time and swears by it but it seems to me like it's simply a point sink. Maybe use them as hammers ala Rat Ogres on the flank. Seems hard to pull off with their base movement and when ran like this they are special choices.

Units of Kroxigors 6 - 8 will deal out more damage then skrox and take less damage (WS3/T4/S6 AS 4 vs WS2/T2/S3 AS6 of the skink). over 8 and it is way too many points even at large points.

so you should (on average) be hitting with 9 and wounding with 7-8 with a -3 AS modifier. then stomping 3-4 times on top of that.

They are just as fast and more maneuverable.
Just leave the ancient out so you don't face challenges.

you can run 6 krox for the 3 krox skrox unit points. 2x2 is probably 2 small frontage unless you need to condense it for some reason. 4x1 is better since you have the same attacks but 2 additional stomps and should get all 4 into combat since most enemy will have over 80mm frontage.

 

[Forsak3n_Oldblood]

a unit of pure krox would operate similar to my OnG rivertrolls(except then have a scaly skin save instead of regen), which is to hammer the opponents flank while trying to keep them out of line of fire. 6 is good because it will give you 2 ranks and all of your attacks but after one goes down you lose the rank bonus.

the difference if you take a krox only unit is it comes out of your special % so it depends on what all you want to include.

i remember the days of using skinks to screen the krox, then when you get close enought the krox just smash through the skinks into the enemy....those were the days.

 

[lord karnik]

I wish we still had the charge through ability.... man Korx would be great, skink would have a use. all would be rigth in the world

 

[Gor-rok]

Charge through would have also eliminated all the rule issues that ensue from having a rank and file unit with both infantry and MI models, but alas...

Pure kroxigor units do have the advantages mentioned. I take them in with the skinks for making core %, and shielding the kroxigor long enough for them to do their damage.

In 7th ed., the krox could charge, strike first, and deny some attacks back that first round. Now, every time I try to make use of a six man unit, I've lost kroxigor before they get a chance to strike- the type of things I want to kill with them (Chaos Knights/Warriors, Tree Man, etc,) always hit first, and hit hard, whether I manage a flank or not. And that's assuming all my krox get there in the first place; opponents seem to notice 6 unescorted kroxigor are a major threat, and shoot/cast MM at them relentlessly.

That's just my experience though. As long as everyone agrees kroxigors are neat and works them into their lists somehow, I'll be happy.

 

[no1cafe]

There is little reason to take Cohorts without some Krox and no reason to take a large unit in horde formation if you do.

Skrox should never be used in a horde formation since you only ever want to be wide enough for your Krox which means they are going to be 6 wide in most cases since the most popular unit size is 24 Skink 3 Krox. When used in this way they are great and compliment to an army with a unit of Saurus since both have different roles. They are a steadfast unit that chucks out 9 S6 attacks. They need to take a lot of wounds to reduce effectiveness and have a musician over normal Krox which is a massive plus. Against S6+ attacks they are as survivable as Saurus and more survivable than Krox thanks to their shields. Also don't forget the javelins, coupled with swift reforming those few extra shots can be crucial.

Putting Kroxigors in Skink units is like putting a good wine in a coke bottle. Dumb.

Dismissing them without looking at their merits or looking into how to use them properly is dumb.

 

[Batu]

Putting Kroxigors in Skink units is like putting a good wine in a coke bottle. Dumb.

Dismissing them without looking at their merits or looking into how to use them properly is dumb.

M6 and and having to have a flank charge a MUST...is hardly a merit. even marching 12".

Unless that unit hits a flank, or unusual rolling occurs, that unit will get its ass handed to it. every time.

The WS2 T2 of the skink will basically auto lose to any other unit in the game. Well, unless your opponent is so bad that he allows a unit as large as the skrox unit to always flank one of his. Any opponent will simply go after a skrox unit with almost anything and beat it in CC.

Especially HE or anything else with hatred.

the 4 wounds from the 3 kroxigors simply do not make that a viable unit against ANYTHING other then a flank. If you are flanking typically with that unit...then your opponent is running his units unsupported or simply making basic tactical errors. Both are indications of a poor player if you are doing it regularly.


Sounds like flanking is common in your games. shrug.

WITH a flank charge any unit has merit.

 

[Gor-rok]

You don't "have to get a flank charge" to use skrox, and you don't "auto-lose" unless you use the unit improperly. Skrox flank better than saurus because they move further.

You just have to be more selective about which units you charge. I take on 25 Bloodletters from the front without batting an eye; their mighty killing blow is wasted on the skinks, and I can keep the unit held up until help arrives. In the mean time, the daemons are not off murdering my Temple Guard or saurus, who cost a lot more to lose than a skink.

What I don't do is charge enemies with tons of weaker attacks head on. That is dumb, and that's why I take Saurus as well. Different tools for different tasks, and all that.

Mathhammer only works so far, and I don't understand all the "absolutes" in the last post. If the unit isn't viable against ANYTHING and MUST have the flank and loses every time... why do people keep taking them? Heck, why does Heelan keep taking them to his big Europe tournament games?

In actual play against a variety of opponents and armies, I've found skrox to be an effective unit, and I don't make it a point to handicap myself against anyone. If the fact that the skrox don't instantly die the moment I place them on the table means all my opponents are all poor players, so be it. But hey, everybody's got an opinion.

 

[no1cafe]

M6 and and having to have a flank charge a MUST...is hardly a merit. even marching 12".

If this is the only merit you can see that the Skrox bring to the table you should re-read some of the posts in this thread since I'm not going to repeat what is already written. I just hope newer players looking at this thread don't dismiss the unit from some of you narrow minded views.

 

[Arli]

Last weekend, I took a skrox horde with 60 skinks and 4 krox and aligned the drox 2x2 so that more skinks could attack (per horde rules). The game was against skaven. That unit absolutely destroyed almost anything that it came into contact with (until the end of the game).

 

[Lord Tsunami]

that unit costs well over 500 points. not strange it destroys most skaven units compare it to 20-25 saurus warriors with a kitted out oldblood in the front.

I have a really hard time seeing Skrox or skink hordes to ever be "point efficient" in close combat. skinks are worse fighters than goblins but cost twice the points. However, the other option for infantry is saurus, and they are much more expensive. Better yes, but still expensive. an "anvil" of saurus warriors will cost at least 300 points, and for that you could get 60 skinks. thats 12 ranks if you wish

the fact that you can buff them with magic to make them good is not important. you can make the same argument for any unit (T6 skinks should be compared to T8 saurus).

I personally use one unit of Skrox, but i use 11 skinks with 1 krox (deployed 5x3). The unit will get beaten in a toe to toe fight by virtually any infantry, but it can hold its on against archers in CC (small units mind you) and it makes a terrible mess of war machines and chariots(if you charge that is). It can also be used to "suicide" enemy wizards, by charging their units and having the krox (and as many skinks as possible) hit the wizard.

My favourite thing is to use it as a tiebreaker. your saurus can fight against most units and often win several rounds, but many enemies will be steadfast. if you can swing this little baby in the flank or rear it can really turn the tide. you add +1 CR for charging, 1 for flank attack and you may even kill a guy or two. you will most likely lose up to 3 skinks, but its still a net gain. but most importantly you have added 2 more ranks on your side, making it less likely for the enemy to be steadfast. All this for a measly 110 points.

skinks are the poorest fighters (point for point, zombies are even worse ) in the game, but they are also the fastest infantry. they are a great compliment to our beefy saurus units, but i doubt that they are a viable replacement for them. When i want to bring the hurt, i take a unit of saurus. when i want fast support, i bring Skrox (or a stegadon )

 

[Gor-rok]

Excellent post! This says it best:

they are a great compliment to our beefy saurus units, but i doubt that they are a viable replacement for them. When i want to bring the hurt, i take a unit of saurus. when i want fast support, i bring Skrox (or a stegadon

As much as I love the unit, skrox can't and won't hold the line all on their own. If I'm not using their movement to it's fullest, they're probably the wrong unit for me to have placed on the table.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

Especially HE or anything else with hatred.

Wow, if only i'd known this astoundingly open-minded nugget of information before i'd had my Skrox unit (frontal) charge Swordsmasters and utterly defile them.

Or maybe I should have let the Delf player read this, before he had to Rear Charge my Skrox with his CoK just to save his Execs from them?

Better idea, can you pop down to Australia, and talk to one of my mates please? He has a horrid irrational hate of Skrox units, because they keep defiling his elves, and I think you're just the open-minded chap to tell him what's what and that Skrox obviously suck and there is no point to fielding them ever, because they're so horribly crappy that you might as well hit the unit with a shovel when you put them on the table?

Oh, and a last thing, your whole "Krox take less damage rar rar rar"ing from before, I have this to say: It's not hard to cause 3 wounds on a unit with T4 and a 4+ save, and as soon as that happens, you've lost a Krox, and 1/6 (okay, it's more like 1/7 because of stomp, but still) of your units fighting power AND your rank bonus, whereas Skrox Krox stay alive a lot longer on account of not being hit.