I'm not surprised. Anyways, it's a thematic little mini-game that results in "fun" narrative moments throughout the game, and it's one of the few examples where GW didn't immediatly shoot itself in the foot by throwing in by arbitrary balance based limitations undercutting the entire theme (e.g. no rule of one or some such nonsense). Like, it's fun to have a couple units of knights rampage across the board, get some blessings, and then challenge Kragnos or something. At the very leas it's far more interesting than showing the 20th spell with a 12" range that gives some basic (de)buff. It's also depressingly one of the few examples of such a reveal. Which has been the crux of my complaints.
Definitely. On the one hand, balance is good, and GW has a pretty poor track record of balancing factions. I've said for a while (as have many other people) that it would be better if they balanced armies against each other at the start of the edition, and they're doing this at least partially. I'm sure there will be powercreep with battletome releases but at least at the beginning we should avoid 40k Eldar/Votann situations, lol! On the other hand, removing/dumbing down many of the unique mechanics each faction has does take away from some of the flavor of the game. I can't remember if it was you or Putz who said earlier in the thread that they were gearing the game much more towards competitive/tournament play this edition, but I can definitely see that with all the faction focuses. Remove complicated/potentially OP faction mechanics in favor of more minor buffs that are easier to keep track of and have less of an impact on the game. I guess we'll have to see how it all shakes out when all the warscrolls are released. I definitely don't like our near-universal 4+ save in the army, but there does seem to be ways we have to help reduce rend so that may balance out. Especially since unbinding is 30" range. Meaning that if each army brings a comparable amount of wizards there is a very significant chance of each player getting a lot of their magic shut down, even when they're just trying to buff and not cast offensive spells. I personally think this is just an over-correction to the heavily magic-focused 3rd edition and the Andtorian season of war rules. Yeah, objective range is tiny, lol! This kind of makes me assume that GW will be trying to shrink army sizes again like they did with the start of 3e. I'm guessing everything will be very expensive points-wise to force players to use smaller armies, meaning that having a single MSU of troops camping on an objective will be a lot more impactful than it is currently.
It's not just the factions that become bland due to this removal of uniqueness; it also affects archetypes & mechanics. Magic being a good example; what exactly is the point of having wizards, priests, & martial heroes if spells, prayers & regular abilities all have similar effects? Why even make the distinction if they don't really do anything different? Another place where the homogenization is visible is in the melee profiles of heroes. They all have extremely similar profiles in 4th; the oldblood riding a carnosaur. the CoS Marshall on his horse, the curseling, the killaboss on gnashtoof, the lord vigilant on a chicken, Morathi's humanoidform; each and everyone of them wields a weapon that is some variant on: a 5/4+/4+/1/2 with a bonus effect here, or a +1 to wound there. Apparently a magically bio-engineered warrior-lizard, a random human, a wizard blessed by the chaos gods, a sneaky ork, a magical lightning warrior, and a demigoddess's humanoid avatar (full goddess?) are all more or less equivalent in combat. It's a bit silly. It might help with balance, and keeping things predictable, but it also removes a lot of flavour. Which is a shame. Magic has never been terribly well implemented in AoS, even at its height. Honestly, I think some of the writers at GW are still traumatized from magic in WHFB.
Ironjawz: Faction: Move a unit 3" once per turn Pick a hero; +1 to charge and +1 attacks for orks near that hero. Once per battle. I guess the simplicity fits with orks? Terribly boring though. Subfaction: Natural charge of 8+ get an extra attack permanently for non-heros. If this stacks, it's reasonably thematic. Fits the whole "waagh" nonsense. On the flipside; this can also quickly become stupidly oppressive if you get lucky a couple of turns in a row. Spells: The millionth spell with 12" range, a casting value of 6, and a basic buff as its effect. Such an unexpected reveal. Seriously, what is the point of showing a spell for each faction if they're all going to be so similar? Units: Gordrak: rampage: half the companion attacks for a monster. +1 to hit for nearby orks after you use a WAAAGH ability Once per game The only waagh ability shown is the +1charge +1 attack faction ability If it damages a unit, and that unit is destroyed by the end of the turn; +1 attack. Stacks up to +3 attacks. warchanter: if it kills something get some extra ritual points for your prayers Their old beats abilities are now prayers That's it. The warscroll is basicly empty. Brutes: 1 in 5 models has a bigger axe Enemy units with a health of 1 or 2 can't hold contest while fighting brutes Maw-grunta when it runs or charges it gains momentum max of 3 momentum +1 damage to its tusk for each momentum (5/4+/2+/2/2 baseline) Lose 1 momentum at the end of a round Rampage: Can move in combat; does not count as retreating; does damage to enemies. No spearhead, cuz the ork spearhead is kruleboyz. But GW swears its two different factions. I guess the maw-grunta is vaguely interesting with its momentum minigame and its ability to just run rampant using its rampages. Brutes being able to stop units with 1 or 2 health from contesting objectives is stupid. Applying the bullying of lesser greenskin to external factions isn't great. It might work with a random human, but like an SCE or Saurus really shouldn't be impressed by a brute trying to bully them. Also it seems rather powerfull to be able to stop 90% of units from contesting objectives at no real cost.
Joining the discussion here on how Seraphon look and feel, I will preface by saying I've played precious few games of AoS, with 3 being my first foray into GW after having played 40k 5th and 6th edition well over 10 years ago However, I think that we largely have to temper our expectations, as GW did say they were making most things across the board a lot weaker. I believe this also comes at the cost of a lot of rules feeling watered down, same-ey from faction to faction, and so forth. I think it's helpful to try to look at the rules in relation to other armies, not comparing them so much to AoS 3 versions. I'm not saying this is a *good* thing, but it does leave room for some inevitable power creep when the battletomes are released and as AoS 4 progresses. Especially after seeing the Ironjawz battle traits, hoo boy. A 3" move for one unit and then the once-per-battle Waagh? Now THAT is pretty boring imo. I'm actually really happy with where the Seraphon are at with our asterisms, we have so much adaptability with it. The ability to choose our asterisms at deployment and not at our list building is such an interesting trait, in my humble opinion. We can tailor them both to our current army and the opponent we're fighting in the moment. As for the conversation on spells being extremely short ranged and rather benign...yeah there is definitely merit to those opinions. I think that not seeing the rest of the spells available to us doesn't help, especially as Earthquake for example might still be the "draw a line from the caster to the corner of the map" range. Also, with Arcane Vassal still existing (albeit once per turn) and at an 18" range, AND our Astrolith (hopefully) increasing spell ranges by 6", we're looking at the slann potentially being able to cast a 12" spell on a target 36" away. That's pretty good. And although the spell revealed is pretty bland, removing some rend, I think that there is a bit of silver lining here. First off, it's -1 rend from *all* the target's weapons when it certainly could have been just one, which would have been a lot worse. Secondly, being able to be cast as many times as we have wizards is quite powerful. I know this is a bit of an optimistic, optimal-scenario take, but let's take a look at how this could be stacked on, say, a unit of 10 warriors on an objective. They're a 3+ save due to their warscroll (if it's the same as Spearhead), and the new Mystic Shield can be cast on them to give them a 6++. If we have them wholly within our territory with the buff from the Quetzl the Preserver (-1 rend), and then have two other wizards cast Mystical Unforging, we're looking at a unit of warriors with a 3+/6++ and -3 to rend for melee weapons targetting them. That's really quite good I think, and of course it's under optimal conditions, but I can't say I've seen any other faction with an unlimited ability to stack -1 to rend on all weapons. After watching Caleb Hasting's video with his thoughts, I've warmed up to the Carnosaur a little bit. I'm a bit salty it's still not the apex predator that I want it to be, but I guess it filling a role of "monster killer" is fine. Seeing how much more of a monster killer that Gordrakk and his mawcrusha are is a bit disappointing, though I'll withhold judgement until we see some point values. I was also initially excited to see that the terradon's rock-drop ability was more than once per game, but I think that's been a bit tempered by running the math on their ability. They certainly fill a role being hyper mobile, having up to 16" move with the asterism bonus, but seeing as GW specifically said they're trying to limit the amount of mortal damage in the game, I can't say I'm too surprised to see that their rocks aren't a serious source of damage. I imagine they're best used to harass a few units they fly over and throw some javelins while spreading out to take some distant objectives/battle tactics/prevent enemy reserve units from dropping in. If you have a unit of 6 terradons and the chief (if the chief is about the same as current), you'll be dealing approximately 4 mortal wounds per pass. Which, while not a lot, is also par for the course for fewer mortals this edition. Overall, I'm most excited for the kroxigors, who seem to have an actually *really* good battlescroll. I guess you can call me a bit of an optimist, but I can't wait to see the rest of the faction. I think that GW could have done Seraphon a lot more dirty than they did, whatever our individual opinions might be on the rules.
This is kind of the issue with a lot of stuff that's revealed. Most of it is decent enough, but it's all so horribly bland and samey. For example, that spell is essentially fine, albeit short ranged, but when every spell revealed is a similar minor buff; then what's there to be excited about? Honestly, GW relies too much on mortal wounds for special rules. They should experiment with alternatives. It'd probably significantly help for "minor" abilities like a terradon's bombs if they had an option other than "deal X mortal wounds". Which honestly can be said for most of the reveals.
Sylvaneth: Faction: Heal units near forests Teleport a unit in combat using forests Teleport a unit that's not in combat using forests Teleports happen at different moments, so you could teleport one unit back and forth. Nothing exciting, but it's fine. Important note; you can only use "friendly" forests. So in a mirror matchup you won't get anything extra. The heal being able to affect unlimited units is good I guess. No mention of starting the game with any forests is a bit weird. Subfaction: Monsters heal 3 instead of D3 with your faction heal How boring. Also, you have a grand total of 2 monsters that aren't named characters. So this is totally going to encourages varied and interesting lists.... Spell: Place a forest, or heal all forests if you already have 3 forests. Unlimited casts I guess it's a better spell than most of what we've seen. So that's something. Shame that it's basicly mandatory, as there don't seem to be any other ways of generating forests. Also, being able to heal damage or just immeadiatly summon back destroyed forests really undercuts the destructable terrain mechanic. This might be one of the few spells where a rule-of-one style limitation is actually good. Units: Allarielle Spear has a similar profile to every other hero. The beetle's antlers hurt. 6/4+/2+/2/4. Seems excessive. Start of a turn: pick one effect; +1 to casting, heal 2D3 wounds Personal spell: deal 2D3 damage, if you destroy the target, you can immeadiatly use the summon forest spell Ressurect destroyed units at halfstrength in forests on a 4+; if you ressurect a monster give it 8 wounds rampage: do some damage on the charge Spirit of Durthu Ranged attack: 12"/5/4+/3+/1/2 Melee: 4/3+/2+/2/5 (anti-monster) and 2/4+/2+/2/3 crit (mortal) rampage: give a monster -1 attack +1 to hit if the target is near a forest Spite-revenants stop enemies from using command abilities Spiterider lancers Heal 3 per turn Strike fast on a 3+ if you charged 3/3+/4+/1/1 charge (+1 damage) anti-cavalry 3/4+/3+/1/1 charge (+1 damage) Spearhead: modified heal & teleport to compensate for the lack of forests in spearhead. Kurnoth hunters bows: 18"/2/3+/3+/1/2 6++ ward while contesting an objective Well, the forest mechanics aren't surprising. Though the fact that they can just immeadiatly resummon (or heal) them with little to no limitations seems a bit much. It's thematic for them with the wild growth and all that; but it does mean that destroying them isn't really going to be worth the effort a lot of the time. Allarielle literally just has a better version of the slann summoning/ressurecting mechanic. Her personal spell is great. This is the first personal spell that's actually cool. Her damage output seems a bit much. Especially with the much more limited damage tables in 4th (she'll lose 2 attacks when damaged...) The fact that every single hero seems to get more or less the same attack profile for their main weapon is getting a bit stale though. This should have more variation. Both she, Spirit of Durthu & the ironjawz Gordrak make our carnosaur look a bit sad as a monster killer. Spiteriders seem pretty solid. The spite-revenants are pretty boring.
Think thats a great point. We have to remember that as much as this seems like a "dumbing down" its also an index release. These are not the full books and its impossible to determine how much depth is going to show up in each individual books release. Also just to double back on the "what do terradons do" convo, they assumingly stop redeploy since its a run ability. That could be pretty huge.
Ooh wow I must have missed that. That'll be a huge change for sure without Mystic Shield. Another thing I'm realizing is that I'll need to get my hands on a lot of the endless spells, seeing as the manifestation lores are free to take now in addition to your other chosen lore. Time to see if I can find some good 3d print files...
You might want to wait untill they properly explain how the lores work. They mentioned something about picking 1 lore and being stuck with that. Which can end up a bit awkward when you've already casted all your (good) endless spells last turn. Also; the only generic endless spell they showed wasn't particularly great. So it's entirely possible the regular lores end up being a lot better.
Khorne: Faction: Blood tithe points Effects: Unbind a spell, 2 points. +1 attack permanently, or summon a dead bloodthirster 8 points move 3" 1 point Do some damage 3 points +1 rend permanently 6 points Only use 1 effect per turn Its thematic, but unless there are other ways to get (way more) points this is kind of terrible for a faction mechanic, at least as the sole mechanic. Especially in certain matchups. Subfaction: Have a mortal unit fight immeadiatly after a daemon unit fights. Once per turn Fine I guess. Prayers: Summon hexgorgers skulls GW doesn't actually show the warscroll for hexgorgers skulls Well, this is a new low.... whats the point of this? Units: Bloodthirster of rage 5/3+/2+/2/5 anti-infantry Crits do an extra D3 damage Rampage do some damage, if its infantry do more damage Bloodletters: Ress D3 units when in combat each turn Karanak: 6/4+/3+/1/2 anti hero Pick a hero to be prey If the hero moves during regular movement, karanak moves closer to the hero +2 to charge for fleshhounds, fleshhounds ignore the "beast" rule.If only we knew what that meant. Blood warriors: do some damage when they die 3/4+/3+/1/1 or 3/4+/3+/2/2 for the ones with a big axe (1 in 10 models) The spearhead is mentioned but doesn't actually show any warscrolls or anything. Well... this is a definitly a new low. They seem to have forgotten to actually write significant parts of the article..... As for the actual rules; I like the bloodletters ressurecting while in combat, that's a neat touch. That's about it. What a terrible faction focus.
Well, that's something I guess. Though given that the endless spells are split up into lores with 4 spells at max; and that you can't use both generic & faction specific spells you still might want to wait and see if one of those lores is actually halfway decent.
I'm not sure what you mean here. You always get a manifestations lore and a spell lore. You pick 1 manifestation lore, so you'll need at minimum your factions manifestations or some of the generics or a krondspine i guess.
The way I see it, if manifestations work the way Putzfrau and I believe they do, you'll be shooting yourself in the foot for not taking freebies like your preferred manifestation(s) just like with not taking your faction terrain. Speaking of which, that's another thing I'll need to start working on sooner rather than later. I actually thought we'd have seen the Realmshaper in the faction focus, but I guess we'll have to wait for the full pack to see what it does now.
I mean that since manifistation lores contain at most 4 spells (and most contain a mere 3) it's worth waiting to see which of those "lores" is actually halfway decent and then get whatever is in that lore (assuming you don't already have the models) For example; getting the krondine only to find out it's terrible would kind of suck as it's the only spell in its lore (which sidenote; seems like a terrible idea but whatever). Anyways seeing that the generic lores don't look like they've been balanced to have even vaguely similar abilities it seems quite likely that one of them is going to be a clear favorite. Hence, wait until the warscrolls have been revealed before you start buying & painting the "wrong" lore.
gotcha, ya that makes sense if you are buying them separately, but the only official GW box they come in includes all the generics. Assuming they dont split them up, it makes just as much sense to grab the whole thing. Kronspine definitely a different story.
For those interested, I think the Honest Wargamer is one of the first to get their hands on the full rules and explain it in detail. clicky <-- Here's the link for those interested. Looks like Mystic Shield is a universal spell for a 6++ in the base game as well! I think this might have been the first time I heard that objectives are "sticky," meaning you continue holding them even if you move off of them until taken by an enemy. I think some fast moving units and teleporting will be especially good for that