8th Ed. 8th Edition Lizardmen Wishlist

[hardyworld]

Hardyworld's Lizardmen 8th Ed. Wishlist:
All unit stats, rules, point costs, unit options, and categories are assumed to match the 7th Ed. book unless stated differently here. Mostly the same, additions and alterations are specified below.
Special Characters not considered.

Army rules:
Cold-blooded: Same.
Aquatic: Lake/River/Stream/Marsh Strider, Models within water terrain have soft cover, Models with the Scout rule count as being out of Line of Sight when being deployed within a Lake/River/Stream/Marsh
Scaly skin: Same.
Blowpipe: Same
Jungle Poison: Same.
Howdah Weapons: Ranged weapons in howdah may march and shoot.

Blessed Spawnings of the Old Ones:
Skink Cohort and Saurus Warrior units may choose a Blessed Spawning at a cost of 2 points per model. One unit with a Blessed Spawning may carry a magic banner up to 25 points. For each unit with a spawning, a matching unit of the same type without a spawning must march in the army. Skink Cohort units with a blessed spawning also bestow Kroxigors in that unit with the spawning. Skink and Saurus characters may not join a unit with a spawning unless they have the same spawning as the unit.
Skink Priests, Skink Chiefs, Saurus Scar-Vets, and Sarurus Oldbloods may choose a Blessed Spawning at a cost of 15 points (this does not count toward their magic item allowance).
Sotek: Devastating Charge, additionally skinks have Hatred (Skaven)
Quetzl: 5+ ward against attacks S6 and higher
Chotec: Swiftstride
Haunchi: Forest Strider, shooting attacks are -1 to hit
Tzunki: Aquatic, Vanguard
Tepok: MR(1), all mundane attacks are magical
Mark of the Old Ones: D3 rerolls per game (Characters only, 1 per army)

Magic Items: Only items listed here are in the new rules. All other army specific items are gone.
Blade of Realities: 60 points
Burning Blade of Chotec: Same.
Staff of the Lost Sun: 20 points.
Priranha Blade: 20 points.
Dagger of Sotek: 15 points. (Skinks only)
Sacred Stegadon Helm: 40 points. +1 armour save, +1 Ld, may reroll impact hits of ridden Stegadon (Skinks only)
Plaque of Dominion: 50 points, The range of all spells and lore attributes is increased 6".
Plaque of Tepok: 20 points, Mage knows 1 additional spell. This spell may either be in the mage's chosen lore (determined normally) or the signature spell of your choice from any of the other 7 basic lores of magic. The spell is chosen during the first magic phase and may be different each battle.
Cube of Darkness: 35 points.
Diadem of Power: Enchanted Item, 40 points. May save up to 2 power dice or up to 2 dispel dice for the next magic phase.
Itxi Grubs: Enchanted Item, 20 points. One use only. Roll a D6 after each use, on a 4+ another Itxi Grub is generated to be used later.
Bane Head: Same.
Cloak of Feathers: 15 points. (Skinks only)
Venom of the Firefly Frog: 10 points.
Charm of the Jaguar Warrior: 30 points. Characters on foot only. Character has M9 and swiftstride. Character may not join units.
Sun Standard of Chotec: 25 points.
Huanchi's Blessed Totem: 30 Points. One use only. When charging, roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest.
Jaguar Standard: 25 points. When pursuing, roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest.

Lords:
Slann: Base unit cost is 300 points. Standard position is in 3rd rank of a Temple Gaurd unit or 2nd rank of a Saurus Warrior unit; the 2nd rank of a Saurus Warrior unit never provides Cover to the Slann, the 3rd rank of a Temple Guard unit always provides Cover to the Slann. Slann is no longer restricted to cast Transformation of Kadon, but all of his abilities are lost while transformed except his 4+ ward save. Slann riding on a Palaquin may take Look Out Sir! test as if it was an infantry unit (Slann is now classified as a Monstrous Infantry), however it succeeds on a 4+ while in an infantry unit and on a 5+ when alone and within 3" of an infantry unit.
Slann Generations: each generation must be bought sequentially (must have a 4th Gen. ability before buying a 3rd Gen ability), may only choose 1 ability from each Generation.
5th Generation (free):
Higher State of Consciousness [Direct Damage Spell's targeting restriction on units engaged in close combat does not apply to the Slann, Ethereal, & MR(2)]
OR
Cosmic Perception [Magic Missiles Spell's Line of Sight or Frontal Arc restrictions do not apply to the Slann, 2+ Ward Save against shooting attacks]
4th Generation (50 points):
Acute Insight [+1 Wound, +1 Channel, & Successful Channel attempts add D3 dice to the pool]
OR
Becalming Cognition [+1 Channel & Enemy wizard within 24" disacards rolls of a '6' when casting spells]
3rd Generation (50 points):
Spirit of Rumination [Terror & +D6 to all cast attempts]
OR
Soul of Stone [Terror, +1 Toughness, & Does not roll on the miscast table on a 2+]
2nd Generation (50 points):
Focus of Mystery [+1 Channel & Loremaster of any of the basic 8 lores of magic]
OR
Balanced Concentration [+1 Channel, +1 Leadership, & Instead of rolling for spells in a lore, the Slann knows all 8 signature spells from the 8 basic lores of magic (each lore's attribute applies only when casting that lore's spell)]

Oldblood: 150 points base, can be mounted on Cold One (15 points), Horned One (60 points, skink rider included), Carnosaur (160 points), or
Raptorex (240 points) (looks like a giant Deinnoychus on a 75mmx100mm base) M9 WS3 BS0 S7 T6 W5 I2 A5 Ld5 Leap Attack: (If charge distance rolled is 10 or greater, Raptorex does D3 impact hits), Large Target, Cold-blooded, Thick-Skinned, Terror, Ultimate Predator, Swiftstride, Hatred (Large Targets), 3+ Scaly Skin

Heros:
Saurus Scar-Vet: 100 points base, can be mounted on Cold One (15 points), Horned One (60 points, skink rider included), or Carnosaur (160 points)

Skink Priest: May use any one of the basic lores of magic.

Skink Chief: 50 points base, no longer has mounted options, instead any Skink Chief has the option to ride any of the listed monsters by displacing a single skink rider from that monster only if that model does not already have a Skink Chief riding. In all cases, the monster is not considered part of the Skink Chief's profile, the monster must be listed as ridden by the Skink Chief in the army list, and the Skink Chief must stay on the monster until it is slain.
Available rides: Stegadon (with or without Skink Priest), Arcanodon, Thunder Lizard

Core:
Saurus Warriors: 11 points per model, can exchange Hand-Weapon for Spear for no cost.

Skink Cohorts: 5 points per model and WS3, Kroxigors (S5 with Great Weapons) may join at a 1:5 ratio to skinks (44 points per model), Kroxigors gain the Great Reach rule that allows them to attack from the 3rd rank if 2 ranks of skinks are in front of them, Kroxigors are placed in the 3rd rank by default. A unit with both skinks and kroxigors is no longer considered "Unique" unit type, it is a combined infanty/montrous infanty unit. Stomp attacks may be done by any opposing units as long as they are in base contact with a skink; all stomp attacks are distributed as shooting and any distributed onto Kroxigors are lost. Kroxigors' stomp attacks are applied to those units in base contact with the Kroxigors.

Skink Skirmishers: blowpipes included (javelin+shield are no longer an option, those weapons are carried by the ranked up skink unit), no other changes

Jungle Swarms: 25 points per model

Sarurus Cold One Riders: 24 points per model, no longer have thick-skinned rule, magic banners up to 25 points are allowed on 1 unit.

Special:
Horned Dragoons: 70 points per model, Skink & Saurus on a Horned One, monstrous cavalry on 50mmx75mm bases, Skink Rider: with Javelin & Shield, Saurus Rider: with spear & Shield, Horned One (Looks large Pachycephalosaurus with a large nose horn pointed 'out', not 'up'): M8 WS3 BS0 S4 T4 W3 I2 A3 Ld5 Special Rules: D3 impact hits at S6, Cold-blooded, Thick-Skinned, Fear, swiftstride, magic banners up to 50 points are allowed on 1 unit

Kroxigors: 44 points per model, S5 base (S7 with GW)

Stegadon: 195 points base, can upgrade bolt thrower to 2 large blowpipe weapons for 15 points (Ancient Stegadon are no longer an army option)

Temple Guard: 15 points per model

Terradons: same

Chameleon Skinks: same

Razordon: 60 points base, Shoot Barbs become S3, armour piercing with 18" range, Roll two artilley die for stand and shoot reaction shots, both rolls always occur. New special rule--Ornery Beast: Must take Leadership test when attempting to shoot on the same turn they marched. If fail, then unit does not shoot and loses D3 skinks per beast. Misfires kill 1 skink. Handlers are 4 points per model.

Rare:
Salamanders: 95 points base, Shoot Flames rule becomes Fire Thrower rule (S5). New special rule--Ornery Beast: Must take Leadership test when attempting to shoot on the same turn they marched. If fail, then unit does not shoot and loses D3 skinks per beast. Misfires kill 1 skink. Handlers are 4 points per model.

Thunder Lizard: 250 points,Thunder Lizard (looks like a Titanosaurus with a shorter neck and thick scales) M6 WS3 Bs0 S6 T7 W6 I1 A4 Ld4 Lustrian Thunderer (Does 2d6 Thunderstomp attacks), Big Boned (Attacks that do multiple wounds are cut in half, rounding up), Large Target, Terror, 3+ Scaly Skin, 4 skink riders and 2 saurus warriors in a howdah. Skink Rider: with Javelin & Shield, Saurus Rider: with spear & Shield, 2 Large Blow Pipe Weapons in the howdah

Arcanadon: 220 points, Arcanadon (looks like a large Sauropelta with thick scales) M4 WS3 BS0 S5 T6 W5 I1 A3 Ld5 Large Target, Terror, Stubborn, 2+ Scaly Skin, 6 skink riders in a howdah with Weapon of the Old Ones.
Weapon of the Old Ones: Choose any point within 24" and scatter usint the scatter dice. Choose a direction from the determined point and roll the artillery die for a bounce distance. All units hit suffer D3 Strength 5 hits per rank. Hits count as flaming. Misfires on the initial scatter roll on the misfire chart (1=weapon & skinks destroyed & Arcarnodon suffers D6 S5 hits, 2,3,&4=D3 skinks dead, 5&6=does not fire this turn). Weapon requires 2 skinks to operate.

Couatl: 120 points, M4 WS3 BS0 S4 T4 W3 I4 A3 Ld8 Cold-Blooded, Fly, Terror, MR(2), -1 to hit in close combat, 5+ Scaly Skin, magical attacks. Lustrian Spirit: 3+ ward save from shooting, Call of the Jungle: During the shooting phase place center of small round template within 12" in Line of Sight. Scatter D6". All models hit must pass an initiative test or suffer a S4 hit, no armour saves.


Commentary:
The biggest change is making the Slann an even better mage, but also making him more costly and vulnerable to shooting. Less protection from template weapons (worse LOS!) and being able to be targeted by shooting are pretty big changes. The Slann will have to rely on either ethereal/4+ ward OR 2+ ward instead. I believe the Slann Generation rules provides a customization that is simple with impactful decisions while being flavorful at the same time.

 

[vict0988]

Not bieng in line of sight has no effect of scout anymore.
Do you seriously think that paying 15 points for having a HORDE of saurus marching up 12 before the game is fair? thats 1½ turns of moving that is just devestating against shooting armies and for 15 points that is just stupid
it makes no sense fluff wise why a char and a unit from 2 different spawnings would not go together this is not chaos gods who regularly fight this is the old ones who were pretty good friends
this is far too many items and for example the standard of chotec is just ridicoulus because the fluff wording is pretty much the same as it is on mazdamundis banner which clearly should mean that he should have the banner as part of his magic items also because thats the only way you could force such a weak item down someones throat now that bs shooting is as bad as it is and what little good there is left can just target someone else while the staff of the last sun did add some flare because it is supposedly something from outer space maybe a different race more specifically the necrons and their staff of light where the wording is the same the item could be given to tiktaq since the blade of ancient skies. the bane head possibly also the piranha blade should clearly be given to oxyotl as his job is to kill characters which he has pretty much no chance of atm but with the roll of a 5+ with 2 dice against a hero lvl mage and that mage is dead would actually be worth something also just give him the venom of the firefly frog just to remove it and give him a reason for having a better poison possibly call it the venom of the demon frog cloak of feathers and charm of the jaguar warriors could be replace by the option of riding a terradon and taking the arabian carpet respectively itxi grubs have no place in the army if you want a stronger magic phase take the forbidden rod or the power stone.
do you want to make lore of beast the main lore of lizardmen? why would the slaan be a monster? also thunderstomps, really?
part of what makes lizardmen armies able to take so many monster is that they can be taken by chiefs and priests paying for them in the heroes section i think taking that aways is a huge mistake also why would they not ride terradons?
instead of having any long reach rules or anything you could just have them in the second rank able to attack as normal and then be able to go to the third rank when in horde formation
the thunderlizards could not be controlled and could only be mildly influenced by a SLAAN it does not make sense for them to carry a howda also their is already a howda monster and the proposed ranged weapon could simply be one of the options of an engine of the gods

 

[kroxigor01]

Some great ideas! Quite broken but hey you called it a wishlist

 

[jg0124]

Certainly glad you won't be writing the book. I would have to shelf lizards and wait for 9th.

 

[hardyworld]

Not bieng in line of sight has no effect of scout anymore.
Do you seriously think that paying 15 points for having a HORDE of saurus marching up 12 before the game is fair? thats 1½ turns of moving that is just devestating against shooting armies and for 15 points that is just stupid

Yep, changed to 2 points per model.

why would the slaan be a monster? also thunderstomps, really?

Yep, changed to Monstrous Infantry (my intent).

Certainly glad you won't be writing the book.

Me too! I don't want everything above, that would be awful. Just tossing some ideas out and trying to see which ones players like and don't like. It's just a wishlist trying to drum up discussion on what should be fixed and what we need in the new LM book. I'm trying to get myself back into playing Lizardmen and I hope the new book will do that. I could have put a lot more thought into the above, but didn't really want to (wishlist for crying out loud!). (I did, however, work longer on flavourful, balanced sacred spawnings that jive with the fluff for the 7th Ed., all for fun only, not to actually be official. But I did that for the Pyramid Vault; I miss the vault.)

I'd really like to see: Return of the Slann Generations, Thunderlizard, and Arcanodon, everything else is bleh

 

[jg0124]

I dont think we will see many radical changes. Loss of miist magical items. I do agree with thr combining of the stegafons though. That will probably happen.

 

[skillfull_dan]

First off, I like this list, I think the point values are unrealistic in some cases, but I like the concepts.

I dont think we will see many radical changes. Loss of miist magical items. I do agree with thr combining of the stegafons though. That will probably happen.

I agree, but I also think there are a lot of small changes that would have a huge impact on how lizardmen run. Any changes to the slann would change a lot of how our army works for example. My army runs on magical space frogs

 

[Wiggus]

i have a question for people, having looked at all the new army books i cant help but notice how they all seem to have about 5-6 troops choices plus the option of taking a character or rule that turn another one into a troops choice so what do you think we will get for troops options. Personally i can see that if you take a slann TG become troops

 

[kroxigor01]

i have a question for people, having looked at all the new army books i cant help but notice how they all seem to have about 5-6 troops choices plus the option of taking a character or rule that turn another one into a troops choice so what do you think we will get for troops options. Personally i can see that if you take a slann TG become troops

That actually was how it worked in our last book. If you took a Slann his unit of Temple Guard was core. I hope they don't do this again because it would be broken in 8th edition rules. Most armies would consist of a huge unit of Temple Guard to soak up the core requirement and then spend the rest on more elites...

 

[hardyworld]

I concur with kroxigor01. While it would be convenient for many players, powergamers would take advantage of the rule like kroxigor01 said. LM core troops are pretty good right now, a big shift isn't really needed.

 

[GCPD]

He's right that the trend does indicate a growth in core choices. One could argue that this is countering a previous imbalance with poor Core choices (High Elves) or to shift new kits (Warriors).

As to the former, whilst our Core choices aren't poor, there is only 4 - one of which (Swarms) is a nonchoice. Personally I prize our Core, but choosing what to take isn't difficult - one unit of Saurus, one Skink-Kroxigor, two Skink Skirmishers. Move on. I've always felt there is something lacking to force some real decision making here.

And with GW, the latter is always certain.

Here's to hoping Saurus Cav and a new plastic box set in Core!

 

[hardyworld]

I wouldn't count on a new Cold One Rider box, the current box is pretty new (I think it came out shortly before the 7th Ed. book), compared to a lot of other models. While putting them as core would be interesting (with a large point drop and maybe only a 3+ armour?), I really think the way to jazz up our core is to reintroduce spawnings into the rules.

 

[Mahtis]

I'd like to get something that can keep the slann from being challenged, the current challenge rules violates our temple guards fluff. (they won't leave the slanns side even when ordered but it's ok for them to let a chaos lord slaughter him in a challenge. )

I wish either one of these or something similar is going to be in the new book: A new special rule to temple guards, that any temple guard can accept a challenge if no champion is present or a Temple guard hero. The first one would be ok, so that if someone challenges, any temple guard in the unit could accept it. It doesn't matter if someone overkilled it, all we lose is a single model, and we still have stubborn (don't think it will go away.) The new hero could also be worth it's money, having some special rules that makes the temple guard even more hard to move (unbreakable could be too much thou, and they already have stubborn and ItP) gaining some bonuses in a challenge but has to challenge and accept them too(like chakax).

 

[GCPD]

I wouldn't count on a new Cold One Rider box, the current box is pretty new (I think it came out shortly before the 7th Ed. book), compared to a lot of other models. While putting them as core would be interesting (with a large point drop and maybe only a 3+ armour?), I really think the way to jazz up our core is to reintroduce spawnings into the rules.

I meant the existing Cold One box being moved to core, and a new plastic kit of something else that is new.

 

[n810]

(I think it came out shortly before the 7th Ed. book)

They came out with the Lustria Campain book in the middle of 6th edition.

 

[Pofadder]

Hopefully they solve the Slann challenge issue by making our special characters cheaper. Currently they are ludicrously priced. 300 odd points for Chakax ^^ I think Chakax is a great idea and can buy us some time even against the chaos lords or vamps etc..

Personally I would love to play some of our special characters but its like our cavalry...just not worth it..

What do you guys think 180p for Chakax? I know it seems cheap, but all other redone armies have had their special char choices made reasonably priced... You know if Throgg can be so cheap (280?) for his abilities / statline I demand some love for my Lizardmen!

Other things for my wishlist...

A new monster or monstrous cav with serious punch and swiftstride or fly ( movement 6 is just too short against knights and flyers etc)

Unlikely but as mentioned many times before sacred spawnings would add so much flavor to our army.
Lizardmen / skink Lore, coz when slann wants to take a break all we got is heavens...
Cupped hands is fine those bastards should leave it alone

Looking forward to awesome razordons

And a chariot pulled by a giant eagle....................................................................................

Nah just joking don't like the new HE chariot thing, phoenix looks cool though.

 

[skillfull_dan]

If we are going to get changes to temple guard, I just want them to be able to go toe to toe with other elites. White liions cost less and have ASF greatweapons and permanent hatred. Plus they have stubborn even without having to keep a slann alive.

I think lizardmen need additional troop choices. That means either a new type of troop, or adding marks back to the book.

 

[Kugelfang]

I want...

Saurus Vets (Better name needed)
Same stats as Saurus but with Great Weapons (Maybe take down to 1 attack)

Carnosaur MI

Larger carnivorous monster for riding

Flying lizard monster for rare choice

 

[Caneghem]

If we are going to get changes to temple guard, I just want them to be able to go toe to toe with other elites. White liions cost less and have ASF greatweapons and permanent hatred. Plus they have stubborn even without having to keep a slann alive.

I think lizardmen need additional troop choices. That means either a new type of troop, or adding marks back to the book.

Good news, white lions lost their rerolls in the new High Elf book, high elves now have normal ASF, meaning great weapons ASL cancels their ASF.

I think a lot could be accomplished by adding spawnings back into the mix. If they added no new troop choices, but then added a bunch of options of spawnings for saurus and skinks (skirmishers and cohorts), we'd have a ton of variety in armies.

 

[Arli]

I would love to see a special rule that any Temple Guard may accept a challenge issued to a Slann within the ranks of a TG unit.