7th Ed. A case for multiple razordons...

[Gor-rok]

I know the issue of razordons in relation to the FAQ ruling on stand and shoot dice has been discussed in great depth elsewhere, but I've been able to successfully argue on behalf of other razordons in the group still being able to fire if one misfires at my game store and thought I would share it.
The FAQ question itself reads

"...if A razordon stands and shoots..."

So only a single razordon is in question in the first place.
The answer begins

"If you roll a misfire on eitherof the dice..."

The word either indicates that two dice and no more are being rolled, as it is a single creature that is firing. The answer continues

"...no shots are fired and the unit loses d3 skinks."

The big point of contention has always been the use of the word "unit", taken by some to mean that no shots are fired by the unit, period, regardless if there are other razordons that did not misfire on their own dice. The singular razordon and it's handlers are the unit in this case. It makes sense to mention potentially losing 2d3 handlers because you could take four of them.
But it doesn't say "no shots are fired by the unit." It only uses the word unit in relation to the loss of the skinks. To me at least, it's fairly obvious the line "no shots are fired" refers only to the second artillery die in question, and not to any hypothetical additional razordons that have not been mentioned in either the FAQ question or answer.
I apologize for bringing this up again, and for blathering on about the exact wording of text, but I love playing by the rules as much as I love my pack of three razordons, and the FAQ hasn't given me any cause to compromise either. Thoughts?

 

[erians]

I've always just assumed that if 1 razordon misfires then no razordon gets to shoot, but looking closely at the wording in both the BRB, the Armybook and the FAQ there is nothing that would indicate this. I defenitly agree, 1 razordon misfiring on 1 dice means that the other dice from that particular Razordon doesn't count, but the others can still fire, and I think this is the best interpretation both from a RAW and a RAI perspective, doesn't really make much sense that 1 razordons misfire would affect the others.

 

[Bibamus]

i thought this was obvious and i did mention it in a few topics. its quite clear by the wording that only 1 razrodon doesn't get to fire if a misfire is roleld on the artillery dice. but thats not really the issue with razordons.
if they stand and shoot they can only do so on a 3+ (2 art dice => 1/3 misfire chance) and then they need to roll t hit and to wound with S4. all of this IF they get charged, otehrwise they jsut fire a random ammount of shots wit ha chance to misfire. the salamanders have the same point cost but htey fire a template weapon that can hit more than 10 models (max hits on a razordon if they dont stand and shoot) with -1 S [compared to the razordons] but a -3 save modifier. if thats not enough they also cancell regeneration and cause double wounds on flammable targets.
while salamanders are still weaker than the skaven warpfire thrower [wich works in a similar way but S5 and D3 wounds] it is still better than a razordon in allmost any circumstance.

 

[strewart]

Yeah I thought it was fairly quickly ruled out that all razordons don't shoot, and that interpretation is just reserved for the hardcore rules lawyer with whom you probably wouldn't even get that far into a game without beating them to death with their own rulebook.

The 1/3 chance of a misfire from each razordon is still quite bad odds. It means from a unit of 3, chances are there will always be at least 1 misfire, and the loss of those skink handlers is never a good thing. Plus it has been shown that in general, salamanders really have a lot more potential to kill with their negative armour, auto hitting shots. Also not mentioned so far in this thread, you can never discount the great value of an automatic panic check for a single wound caused from the salamander.

 

[Gor-rok]

Appreciate all the feedback. My razors did respectably in a game tonight, wiping out the crew of a chaos Hellcannon, put a wound on the cannon itself, and killed six out of ten Warriors before being slain themselves in combat. The salamanders would probably done more damage due to the high armor I was facing, but I wasn't disappointed with the way I was able to help contain one of my flanks with the charge deterrent. (Usually my opponent brings swarms of 5-man marauder fast cavalry, and that's when I'm glad I have the razordons)

 

[Bibamus]

5 man fast cave are lovely if you have enough of them. just throw them at razordons each turn and wait for the misfire to happen, the monste reaction table will solve all other problems

 

[Wolf]

But then we have Terradon's who's rocks just love fast cav units

 

[Barotok]

Razordons seem to be one of the most controversial units in the LM army due to their somewhat sloppy rules which are neither clear or concise. A case can be made that says if a single razordon in a unit misfires the remain razors may shoot. Another example would be a unit of Ogre Leadbelchers. If one misfires the remaining ogres may still fire (but bad things generally happen to the ogre who misfired). I have always understood the rules to mean that if one razor misfires the rest may not fire either.

Oh yea, and I use Terradon rocks on Swordmasters.

 

[Arsenal]

Razordons seem to be one of the most controversial units in the LM army due to their somewhat sloppy rules which are neither clear or concise. A case can be made that says if a single razordon in a unit misfires the remain razors may shoot. Another example would be a unit of Ogre Leadbelchers. If one misfires the remaining ogres may still fire (but bad things generally happen to the ogre who misfired). I have always understood the rules to mean that if one razor misfires the rest may not fire either.

Oh yea, and I use Terradon rocks on Swordmasters.

I have always played the individual misfire per Sally/Razor in a 3 strong unit. No one has ever lawyered the opposite. It doesn't state at all in the rules that the UNIT cannot fire, just the Sally/Razor, as he is too busy eating the silly skinks who poke him.

 

[Bibamus]

as a rules lawyer, I agree, its very ahrd, if not impossible to argue that the whole unit doesn't shoot if only 1 misfires. alltough the wording might be confusing, the meaning is quite clear and it was so when the book was written, i don't know why it made it in the errata.

 

[Gor-rok]

If all the fast cavalry are busy trying to provoke my unit of razordons into misfiring, they're not out causing problems for the rest of my army, and that's points well spent in my book.

 

[JohnMavrick]

as a rules lawyer, I agree, its very ahrd, if not impossible to argue that the whole unit doesn't shoot if only 1 misfires. alltough the wording might be confusing, the meaning is quite clear and it was so when the book was written, i don't know why it made it in the errata.

Probably the same way that the specifications of 'one use only' for magic items which state 'once per battle' made it into the Skaven errata.