AoS A tentative 1500 point list...

[Christopher]

Here’s an attempt at a 1500 point list for Week Three of the Escalation League I’m playing in, which will use the Battlehost (2000 point) rules.

Allegiance: Seraphon
Battle Traits: Masters of Order and Lords of Space and Time

Lord Kroak (450)
—Leader
—General
—Command Trait: Great Rememberer
—Artefact: Prism of Amyntok
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
—Leader
Bastiladon (280)
—Behemoth
—Solar Engine
10 Saurus Warriors (100)
—Battleline
—Stardrake Icon
—Wardrums
—Celestite Spears
10 Saurus Warriors (100)
—Battleline
—Stardrake Icon
—Wardrums
—Celestite Clubs
40 Skinks (200)
—Battleline
—Boltspitters and Star-Bucklers
Razordon (40)
—Artillery
Salamander (40)
—Artillery
Summoning (100)
—Balewind Vortex

Points: 1470
Wounds: 80 (but note Lord Kroak’s Dead for Innumerable Ages ability)

The obvious idea behind this is to try for the Lord Kroak/Balewind Vortex spellsapalooza combination, but I’m also looking forward to week four of the League when I hope to have less painting to do (because I’ll be using at least some models I’ve fielded in previous weeks). The downsides of this list, from a non-game point of view, include the facts that my Lord Kroak and Saurus Astrolith Bearer models are still in the box, and I’ll also have to paint a bunch of Warriors (and ten more Skinks). The Bastiladon needs painting as well, and I haven’t even received my Vortex yet (should be here Wednesday).

On the battlefield, I suspect I’ll suffer from lack of wounds. And other than the Kroak/Astrolith Bearer/Vortex synergy, there’s not much in the way of exploitable interactions among the units.

Still, there’s a bit of offensive punch there with Kroak and the Bastiladon. As usual, I have no idea who my opponent will be, what they will field, or what the deployment and win conditions will be.

 

[Mormblwka]

If I am right, named characters can't have command traits and artefacts

 

[Xasto]

If I am right, named characters can't have command traits and artefacts

You are!

 

[Christopher]

Good to know! So I just equip the Astrolith Bearer with an Artefact and forego any Command Traits?

 

[Mormblwka]

Indeed

 

[Xasto]

Yep pretty much! I would recommend the Incandescent Rectrices, as the Saurus Astrolith Bearer is a key buffing unit and you opponent will eventually realise that it needs to die. The possibility of having him instead survive is great!

 

[Aginor]

Indeed, keeping him alive for one more round (the enemy will try to snipe him) has quite some impact.

 

[Christopher]

Here's my (slightly) revised version of my 1500 point list, taking all of you good people's good advice into account.

Lord Kroak (450)
—Leader
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
—Leader
—General
—Command Trait: Thickly Scaled Hide
—Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
Bastiladon (280)
—Behemoth
—Solar Engine
10 Saurus Warriors (100)
—Battleline
—Stardrake Icon
—Wardrums
—Celestite Spears
10 Saurus Warriors (100)
—Battleline
—Stardrake Icon
—Wardrums
—Celestite Clubs
40 Skinks (200)
—Battleline
—Boltspitters and Star-Bucklers
Razordon (40)
—Artillery
Salamander (40)
—Artillery
Summoning (100)
—Balewind Vortex

Points: 1470
Wounds: 80 (but note Lord Kroak’s Dead for Innumerable Ages ability)

The game I'm playing in uses cards drawn from three subdecks of the Open War deck to establish Deployment, the Objective, and a Twist. The cards have already been drawn, and they are as follows.

Deployment: A 4'x6' table divided lengthwise (so the players each control a 2'x6' area and will stand on the long side of the table). Deployment in Open War games simply states that units must be set up within their own territory, at least 3" from enemy units.

Objective: Treasure Hunters. The players take turns to place six objectives. Each objective must be placed more than 6" from any other objectives and the edge of the battlefield. At the start of each player's turn, they must roll a dice for each objective they control, in any order they wish. If they roll a 6, they have found the hidden treasure—remove the other objectives. The player that controls the hidden treasure at the end of the fifth battle round wins the battle. Open War rules for controlling objectives state that they are controlled by the player who has the most models within 3" of them at the end of any turn. Once you gain control of an objective in an Open War battle, it remains under your control until the enemy is able to gain control of it.

Twist: Lashing Rain. The lashing rain takes effect from the start of the first battle round. While it is raining, subtract 1 from hit rolls in the shooting phase, and subtract 1 from all run and charge rolls. Roll a dice at the start of each battle round after the first. On a roll of 4 or more the rain stops (if it was raining in the last battle round) or starts again (if it was not raining in the last battle round).

I don't yet know who my opponent is or what army they'll be fielding for sure, but odds are fairly good I'll be playing Clay County Jake, which means Death, and at 1500 points I pretty much guarantee he'll bring Nagash. He likes to field as few units as possible, and use as big, bad, hulking models as possible.

Tactically, I still plan to go for getting Lord Kroak onto the Balewind Vortex near the center of the battlefield if at all possible. Then I suppose I'll hope for the best with the dice rolls on finding the treasure Objective, and try to keep a lot of models alive for as long as possible and seize control of it in Round Three or Four if it's not in my territory already. I'm mulling.

 

[Xasto]

I would advise you to make Kroak your General. You do lose the command trait, but his command ability can be a game changer, allowing you to reroll any single dice until your next hero phase, including your opponnent's dices. This can save you from bad rolls in critical times. Allowed me more than once to turn a failed summon balewind vortex casting roll into a success, or when rolling a 1 for the teleport ability. I think it will immensely help you, way more than the saurus command trait I believe

EDIT: Do bear in mind that the roll-off for the turn initiative is still unnaffected by this command ability!

 

[Christopher]

I would advise you to make Kroak your General. You do lose the command trait, but his command ability can be a game changer, allowing you to reroll any single dice until your next hero phase, including your opponnent's dices. This can save you from bad rolls in critical times. Allowed me more than once to turn a failed summon balewind vortex casting roll into a success, or when rolling a 1 for the teleport ability. I think it will immensely help you, way more than the saurus command trait I believe

EDIT: Do bear in mind that the roll-off for the turn initiative is still unnaffected by this command ability!

I will definitely take your advice, Xasto, thanks.

My week three, 1500 point game has been scheduled, and I'll post more details about it later. But it will definitely be a Death army, and I'm 90% certain my opponent will be fielding Nagash.

 

[Christopher]

As I said, I’m 90% sure my opponent, Clay County Jake, will field Nagash in his Death Allegiance army. In fact, based on previous experiences playing him and watching him play, I think I can come up with a pretty good guess as to his list of 1500 points.

Nagash (800)
--Leader
--Behemoth
20 Zombies (120)
--Battleline
10 Skeleton Warriors (80)
--Battleline
10 Skeleton Warriors (80)
--Battleline
3 Vargheists (160)
Vampire Lord (140)
--Leader
Wight King w/Baleful Tomb Blade (120)
--Leader

If he doesn’t field Nagash, he’ll definitely field a similar list built around a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon and make up his 360 points with more Leader/Hero type models, though I’m not sure which ones he has beyond those listed above. Nagash scares the time out of me. What specifically worries me is that my list is built largely around the mortal wounds dealt by Lord Kroak atop the Balewind Vortex, and Nagash’s armour, Morikhane, gives him a 4+ negation for each mortal wound he receives, and—this is what really worries me—on a 6+ the wound is instead allocated to the attacking unit. He’s also, of course, a formidable wizard, though luckily the Rule of One helps me there regarding his insane number of extra castings (but not unbindings).

Given the Objective for the game listed above, and all other factors I’ve mentioned, anybody got any advice on what to do against this undead beast? Or for the game in general? I'm trying to decide whether to concentrate my offensive efforts on his Leaders or on his Battlelines. Jake usually plays to objectives, but this game isn't decided until the bottom of the fifth round, whenever whomever is controlling a particular (single) objective is declared the winner, with control going to whichever player has the most models within 3". So I'm thinking about trying to protect my Skinks at all costs and then trying to take the objective with them and some supporting models late in the game. But he'll be coming after me hard, I know. He really likes to see other people remove models from the board. Note also that he'll be going first in each turn, as he'll almost certainly field fewer units than me, thus getting the first turn in round one and benefiting from the League rule that the player who goes first in the first round goes first in each subsequent round.

 

[Christopher]

All this discussion about and preparation for a Death army, and Clay County Jake had to cancel due to work! So now instead of playing him and Nagash tomorrow afternoon, I'm playing a guy I don't know in about an hour who apparently runs Skaven. Wish me luck!

 

[Christopher]

Hmmm. I'll post a full battle report in the appropriate forum in the next day or two, but the big takeaway is that I'm not sure I'll be running "Kroaknado" again except under peculiar, heightened conditions. The victory conditions for this game involved controlling an objective at the end of the fifth round. I established control of the objective at the top of the second round (I went first, for once, and shop rules preclude "double turns," whoever goes first the first round goes first in all subsequent rounds) and my opponent conceded at the bottom of that round. I destroyed over half his army--everything but his three Battlelines--in the first hero phase of the battle.

It was kind of uncomfortable and embarrassing. It was interesting, as a spectacularly successful experiment, but it wasn't fun. And I know my opponent didn't have any fun, either. Since Age of Sigmar is, y'know, a game, if nobody is having fun then something is off.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Hmmm. I'll post a full battle report in the appropriate forum in the next day or two, but the big takeaway is that I'm not sure I'll be running "Kroaknado" again except under peculiar, heightened conditions. The victory conditions for this game involved controlling an objective at the end of the fifth round. I established control of the objective at the top of the second round (I went first, for once, and shop rules preclude "double turns," whoever goes first the first round goes first in all subsequent rounds) and my opponent conceded at the bottom of that round. I destroyed over half his army--everything but his three Battlelines--in the first hero phase of the battle.

It was kind of uncomfortable and embarrassing. It was interesting, as a spectacularly successful experiment, but it wasn't fun. And I know my opponent didn't have any fun, either. Since Age of Sigmar is, y'know, a game, if nobody is having fun then something is off.

Don't feel bad about destroying his army in turn one, you should both look at it and think what could he have done to prevent it, shoot everything at Kroak etc etc.

 

[Xasto]

Hmmm. I'll post a full battle report in the appropriate forum in the next day or two, but the big takeaway is that I'm not sure I'll be running "Kroaknado" again except under peculiar, heightened conditions. The victory conditions for this game involved controlling an objective at the end of the fifth round. I established control of the objective at the top of the second round (I went first, for once, and shop rules preclude "double turns," whoever goes first the first round goes first in all subsequent rounds) and my opponent conceded at the bottom of that round. I destroyed over half his army--everything but his three Battlelines--in the first hero phase of the battle.

It was kind of uncomfortable and embarrassing. It was interesting, as a spectacularly successful experiment, but it wasn't fun. And I know my opponent didn't have any fun, either. Since Age of Sigmar is, y'know, a game, if nobody is having fun then something is off.

TBH, we've been helping you over the past couple weeks to shape different lists (500-1000-1500) and you somewhat asked how to make them competitive, so we obliged! Currently, Skaven are NOWHERE near competitive when faced with optimised lists, especially a Kroaknado. It just shows that there are really armies in AoS that need updates!

But I agree, Kroaknado is and always will be a ''try-hard'' list, I only bring it to tournaments, never with my friends!

 

[Christopher]

TBH, we've been helping you over the past couple weeks to shape different lists (500-1000-1500) and you somewhat asked how to make them competitive, so we obliged! Currently, Skaven are NOWHERE near competitive when faced with optimised lists, especially a Kroaknado. It just shows that there are really armies in AoS that need updates!

But I agree, Kroaknado is and always will be a ''try-hard'' list, I only bring it to tournaments, never with my friends!

And I greatly appreciate that help! Sorry, didn't mean to suggest otherwise. It was certainly good and effective advice! If and when I ever go to a tournament I'll probably revisit my soft-hearted hesitation, heh.

I talked to my opponent for probably over an hour after the game--longer than we played, actually. Unlike me, he plays at the other local (non-GW) wargame shop, which, in addition to providing space for pickup games, hosts a monthly AoS Tournament on fourth Saturdays. People travel in from surrounding cities and so on for it. He encouraged me to try that out sometime, and I probably will, but that said, he also told me that there are players there, particularly from the Louisville crowd, who flat out won't play against a Seraphon Army that has Lord Kroak and 100 points of summoning on its roster. I'm not much for slang, but the words "cheese" and "broken" were used a lot.

He was a nice guy. He runs tutorials and practice games for the local GW shop and is interested and engaged in growing the local scene, so I take him at his word. The tactic is a good one, a legal one, and, apparently, a very well-known one (though he'd never faced it before). But if using it shuts me out of the community--which is, after, largely a social scene, not just a gaming scene--then y'know, it's like you said. Don't use it with your friends.

I don't know. It's an interesting dilemma, and I'm not sure that the strong reaction against it is entirely fair. Clay County Jake, the Death player who's spanked me in most of the AoS games I've played, runs optimized lists (and plays kind of fast and loose with rules and movement), but nobody really looks down on him. That said, over time apparently, the other local players have learned how to combat his usual tricks. "Kroaknado" is counterable, certainly, so it seems like they could do the same against that optimization.

Well, in any case, the League has one week left and is definitely a "friendly" competition, so I won't be using it at least in my next game.

Unless it's against Clay County Jake. That dude's going down. (I know, I know. It's not likely to be effective against Nagash and his shambling pals, just joking around.)

 

[Crowsfoot]

He was a nice guy. He runs tutorials and practice games for the local GW shop and is interested and engaged in growing the local scene, so I take him at his word. The tactic is a good one, a legal one, and, apparently, a very well-known one (though he'd never faced it before). But if using it shuts me out of the community--which is, after, largely a social scene, not just a gaming scene--then y'know, it's like you said. Don't use it with your friends.

Unless it's against Clay County Jake. That dude's going down. (I know, I know. It's not likely to be effective against Nagash and his shambling pals, just joking around.)

You got it in one, just use it on Clay County Jake

 

[Xasto]

And I greatly appreciate that help! Sorry, didn't mean to suggest otherwise. It was certainly good and effective advice! If and when I ever go to a tournament I'll probably revisit my soft-hearted hesitation, heh.

I talked to my opponent for probably over an hour after the game--longer than we played, actually. Unlike me, he plays at the other local (non-GW) wargame shop, which, in addition to providing space for pickup games, hosts a monthly AoS Tournament on fourth Saturdays. People travel in from surrounding cities and so on for it. He encouraged me to try that out sometime, and I probably will, but that said, he also told me that there are players there, particularly from the Louisville crowd, who flat out won't play against a Seraphon Army that has Lord Kroak and 100 points of summoning on its roster. I'm not much for slang, but the words "cheese" and "broken" were used a lot.

He was a nice guy. He runs tutorials and practice games for the local GW shop and is interested and engaged in growing the local scene, so I take him at his word. The tactic is a good one, a legal one, and, apparently, a very well-known one (though he'd never faced it before). But if using it shuts me out of the community--which is, after, largely a social scene, not just a gaming scene--then y'know, it's like you said. Don't use it with your friends.

I don't know. It's an interesting dilemma, and I'm not sure that the strong reaction against it is entirely fair. Clay County Jake, the Death player who's spanked me in most of the AoS games I've played, runs optimized lists (and plays kind of fast and loose with rules and movement), but nobody really looks down on him. That said, over time apparently, the other local players have learned how to combat his usual tricks. "Kroaknado" is counterable, certainly, so it seems like they could do the same against that optimization.

Well, in any case, the League has one week left and is definitely a "friendly" competition, so I won't be using it at least in my next game.

Unless it's against Clay County Jake. That dude's going down. (I know, I know. It's not likely to be effective against Nagash and his shambling pals, just joking around.)

As you said, this is not a fair reaction from them. It might be a game, but no one can deny that we play games to win. I understand that the competitive side maybe isn't for everyone and I'm quite fine with that, but you can't blame somebody for trying his hardest at winning an event. Something that my local game store does well I think is that every month, there is a tournament instore for matched play, and they do emphasize the fact that it is a tournament with a prize. Then, they will often have ''friendly style game days'' where you can play open and narrative matches with people. It helps steer people in the right direction for their gaming needs, as more competitive oriented players will focus on the tournaments and vice versa.

Also, do not shun a powerful competitive list based on what 1 opponent told you. When I started playing in my local game store, about 5 months ago, I didn't know anybody. Like you, I encountered people who were kinda ''disgusted'' by the power level of certain lists. But I also met people who were impressed, and wanted to test their competitive lists against mine, seeing it as a ''new challenge'' for them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this hobby is so vast, everybody do not necessarily enter it with the same goals or expectations in mind. We just gotta find like minded-people over the course of our journey, as they will become partners in this beautiful hobby that is Warhammer!

 

[Aginor]

Congratulations on destroying the Skaven filth quickly and without mercy!

Ok joke aside: In a tournament I wouldn't hesitate playing Kroak. Kroaknado is not broken nor OP. It is just a bit cheesy. A lot of armies have cheesy, very strong, lists.
In a friendly game I probably wouldn't play it (except maybe after talking to my opponent and if he is OK with it), but in turn I'd expect players of very strong armies not to play their top lists as well (as in: Stuff that wins tournaments like that one infamous Tzeentch list, SCE Vanguard Wing, and similar stuff).

Also interesting: The people who refuse to play against Kroaknado... It would be very interesting to hear what they play.
I understand if they are playing armies who just don't stand a chance (pure Brayherd or Ironjawz for example have a near zero chance of winning for example), but if they are playing top tier armies they are probably just being dicks and call all strong lists other than their own "cheese" and "OP" and "broken". Such as Bonesplitterz players playing the maximum version of Kunnin' Rukk and then complaining that you play a list that beats it while they themselves just steamroll over 90% of possible lists in Age of Sigmar.

Also: Even with Kroaknado Seraphon aren't exactly running around winning all tournaments. So much for "OP" and "broken"...