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8th Ed. Analyzing Kroxigor!

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, May 4, 2015.

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How competitive do you belive Kroxigor units are?

  1. Completely Overpowered.... absolute autoinclude

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Very Powerful... a solid competitive choice

    1 vote(s)
    1.6%
  3. Well Balanced... worth their points

    26 vote(s)
    42.6%
  4. Underpowered... there are much better choices, but they still have some uses

    32 vote(s)
    52.5%
  5. Useless... they have no place in any competitive Lizardmen army

    2 vote(s)
    3.3%
  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    That's true, Chaos is very average in the magic phase, but I'd say they are good enough. Obviously shooting is not their thing, although I've decimated armies before with my 3 Hellcannons (@3000pts) :D:D:D. So they're left with movement and close combat. Fortunately for them, together those two elements are the most reliable way to win a game. Magic is fickle and shooting can't usually match the devastation that can be unleashed through close combat.

    I think if you gave WoC access to core skink skirmishers, they would absolutely wreck face! If I could cherry pick one unit from the Lizardmen book into my WoC list, it would be skinks. Nearly anything else we have, they have something that is better...

    Saurus warriors < Chaos Warriors
    Old Blood < Unkillable Lord
    Stegadon < Gorebeast Chariot (considering their relative points costs)
    Kroxigor < Trolls or Skullcrushers
    Cold One Cav < Chaos Knights
    Troglodon < Hellcannon
    Bastiladon < Chimera
    Temple Guard < Chaos Warriors or Chosen


    Back on topic... would a 3+ armour save, musician and access to a Krox special character put Kroxigor on par with Trolls or Ogres or <insert MI or MC unit>?
     
  2. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    but their mages have +1 armor saves... and they have the bloody hell cannon. :rage::punch:
     
  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    My WoC mage has a 1+ armour and usually a 3+ or 4+ ward! And I love those crazy hellcannons!
     
  4. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    I had a guy, in all seriousness, proclaim that I didn't get to complain about his hell-cannon option, when I had the Bastiladon option.

    "its a monster and a canon! IN ONE!....FOR THAT COST!"

    I didn't know how to respond to that......without being impolite that is.

    He also thought that our "cheap saurus" in Core was OP.
    I am not making this up...
     
  5. The Sauric Ace
    Salamander

    The Sauric Ace Well-Known Member

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    Spoiled WoC players :p
     
  6. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    If you compare saurus side by side with pimped out chaos warriors they'll easily beat us with equal amount of points. WTH?! XD
     
  7. Mr Phat
    Skink Chief

    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    yup.......
     
  8. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The Bastiladon is nothing compared to the hellcannon. Hellcannon is better offensively, defensively and is UNBREAKBLE. Only thing that really sucks about the hellcannon is the movement of 3 (used to be 6 in the last book). Additionally, the Hellcannon's shooting doesn't rely on power dice, while the Solardon does. As far as core goes, Chaos Warriors beat Saurus Warriors any day of the week.

    Back on topic: How do you guys feel Kroxigor (in their current state) fit into the landscape of Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry amongst all the armies? Which units are better than our Krox, which are about equal and which are worse?
     
  9. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    I'd say they are in the lower end, but mainly due to how they are.

    Better than kroxies:

    • The 3 big Monstrous Cavalry units I can think of (mournfang, skullcrushers and demigryphs) are all ridiculous and shouldn't be counted because they are nut for what you pay. 1 skullcrusher have 6 S5 attacks + a stomp and an armour save of 1+. We can never compete against that with our kroxigors.

    • Trolls have S5, T4 and regen, but no other save. They are also very very cheap, but have Ld4 and stupidity. They still do very well and is a solid choice.

    • Ogre (ironguts) are generally considered a better overall deal. They are core, S6, cheaper and ogre charge impact hit. Looking aside the fact that Ironguts are core they (IMO) only beat our kroxigors due to the impact hits.

    • Beast of nurgles are considered all time ridiculous. Regen and lots of attacks (at S4) mean that they can be absolutetly devastating, but lack the punch against high armoured units. Should they lose regen due to flaming they still have their normal ward. Against kroxigors I believe I once did the math and the average statisticks showed that they were equal, unless my memory serves me wrong. Overall a better unit than our kroxies.

    • Plague drones of nurgle have both S5 and T5, and can gain poison for a mere 5 points. They also come with a 5+ ward save. I'd say, without having run the math that against kroxigors they're equal, but against everything else they are superior, well with the exception of 1+ armoured units.

    • Vampire Counts have 2 absolute fantastic monstrous infantry units. Both can easily be fielded without fearing whether or not they'll do their part. Crypt Horros are cheap (!) and come with T5 and 5+ regen that can be boosted to 4+. They might lack the punch (S4), bu that's alright. Although they do have poison. Oh and since they are not vampiric they are super easy to raise again. Yay.. 8 of these will likely take out 6 of ours.

    • Vargheists have 3 (4) attacks due to frenzy, fly and S5. They also come with WS4 and I4. They are cheaper than kroxigors, but have the vampiric special rule making them hard to ressurect. Their main purpose is to eat warmachines, but they are also terribly good in a flank and due to fly they can just do that. They do, however, have absolutely no save at all and against shooting only their skirmish flying rule will "save" them. Oh and they are T4. A glass cannon, but one with good stats and fly. Can they beat our kroxigors? Well hitting and wounding on 3+ before us should be enough, but I'd wager they would be equal to kroxigors against them. (PF and wounding on 2+ will do a number on them).

    Equal/on pair to kroxies:

    • Deamon's skullcrushers are inferior to the Warriors of Chaos one, but still pack a punch. Charging they have 4 S5 attacks, but only a 3+ armour save and 5+ ward. I'm a bit uncertain here, but due to the price I actually think they are quite equal to our kroxigors. Oh, yeah I don't know of the beast gets a +1 to strenght on the charge. That would put them at S6.

    Worse:
    • Ushabtis are ridiculous in the wrong way. They cost the same as ours, but are inferior in every and all aspects. Yay. Not much to say here, other than they can shoot, but who really cares?

    • Minotaurs are.. well they have T4 and a light armour. They can get S7 with great weapons, but they are already more expensive than our kroxigors and the GW cost an additional 8pts. They do have impact hit, but honestly it doesn't matter because due to bloodgreed and low armour save they are an obvious target for anyone who can shoot. They are also only Ld7 so once they are frenzied they become somewhat hard to control. You can go the more obvious route and plop in a doombull, but that'll raise the overall cost of the unit and make it even more obvious to shoot at. Not only that, but it eat into their character points and Beastmen do tend to favor magic (derpstone). Overall weaker IMO.

    Uncertain:

    • I suppose pegasus knights do count? T4 with a 3+ armour save and some ward I suppose? I haven't faced these much, but I'm assuming their role is to hunt warmachines and hit them with S5-6 on the charge. Due to flying I wouldn't count on these being up against our kroxigors, but I tihnk most will take them due to no other real alternative . I might be completely mistaken about these though.

    • There are also Monstrous Beasts, but I cannot be bothered about these.

    What really hurt our kroxigors are the fact that they are a very specialised unit. They are a very heavy beat stick. S5 with no great weapon will generally be better because they can tackle a wider array of opponents. Against 1+/2+ knights our kroxigors are obviously strong, but we cannot always rely on our opponent to have these. Armies such as Skaven, O&G, Dwarfs etc don't have a lot of armoured units. And I'm not sure you'll want kroxigors to hunt down the hellpit from Skaven, fight trolls or ironbreakers. An army such as a competitive Dark Elf mounted list will wreck kroxigors and the same can be said with a similar Wood Elf list.

    This is why I argue that a 2x2 block of kroxigors might be good. It comes off as cheap (210pts), anonymous (small size) and can still serve as fast moving support to flank our main block(s).

    All of this is, obviously, just my opionion. :D
     
    NIGHTBRINGER likes this.
  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

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    @Pinktaco : Awesome breakdown!!! I completely agree with all your points on Krox vs. Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry.

    These 3 units really are at the top of the pyramid aren't they? All three of those units are ridiculously good. It's hard to find a unit in the entire game of warhammer that can go toe to toe with Skullcrushers for instance.

    Do you mean that they would be better because of a point reduction (due to not having great weapons) or just straight up better? Straight up, I'd take the great weapons without hesitation because they are only initiative 1 anyways.

    Definitely not, I haven't run the the numbers, but I'm certain that the HPA would absolutely wreck a unit of kroxigor. I think the HPA is one of the few monsters that we don't want our kroxigors attacking.

    Dwarfs have a some well armoured units, but those units will typically crush kroxigor. Against Orcs and Goblins, I think the Arachnarok spider would be an ideal target. Against Skaven... maybe a doomwheel.


    I think Kroxigor will dominate knights (with some exceptions... chaos knights, etc.) if they can manage the charge. Without their lance bonus, knights don't have the punch to do significant damage to krox, and their defense is nearly meaningless against S7.

    Interestingly enough, I think Kroxigors would have many juicy targets when facing another Lizardmen army. Stegadons, Bastiladons, Troglodons and to a lesser degree Cold One Cavalry would all fall fairly easily
     
  11. Pinktaco
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    I'm not saying S5 with no GW kroxigors would be better (unless of course we could shave of 10pts and have them naked). What I'm saying is that generally when you look at those S5 monstrous infantry units there is in the game they are made to be able to deal with more things than our kroxigors. Trolls have regen and can vormit. Vargheists can fly and have a decent WS and +1A.

    Having great weapons mean that not only do we have to baby sit our unit because they are and will always be more fragile due to hitting last, but they are also primarily used against heavily armoured units or monsters.

    The reason why our cowboys work so well is because they come with a very good save(s), so hitting last doesn't matter at all because they can easily survive it.

    I love kroxigors for their brute strenght, but they are an extreme unit with a limited use. Trolls can be used in all games. :) More or less..
     
  12. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Oh and cowboys can very easily handle skullcrushers. Demigryphs are actually worse due to their armour piercing. Also skullcrushers are not nurgle and that's always a win in my book xD
     
  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Agreed.

    That's true, but they're characters. I think very few non-character units can stop skullcrushers in a straight up fight. Once characters are brought into the mix, their unkillable lords can deal with our cowboys.
     
  14. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    True. But generally speaking WoC are pure haxx ;)

    An ancient stegadon have the potential to break a unit of skullcrushers. It's not guaranteed, but could happen. Otherwise redirect. Out of sight, out of mind. Right, RIGHT?! :D
     
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

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    Stegadons do have a chance to break a unit of skullcrushers, but you must get the charge off and have sharpened horns. Even then, it is a very risky proposition. The big weakness for skullcrushers is their frenzy. Double flee, redirect, force them to overrun in the wrong direction, etc. They are very powerful, but also very expensive. If you can sacrifice a chaff unit or two to get them out of the game, then that is a big points deficit for the WoC player.

    Interestingly, Kroxigor do have a couple of good units to go after in a WoC list. They have a lot of high armour and high toughness targets. WoC offer plenty of targets: hellcannons, chaos chariots, gorebeast chariots, chimera, chaos spawn, dragon ogre shaggoth, giant, mutalith vortex beast and even a DP (if you have a big enough unit of krox).
     
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    What if the options for Kroxigor were similar to what WoC Dragon Ogres have....

    Kroxigor - 42 points
    The entire unit may take one of the following...
    • Additional hand weapons: 3 points per model
    • Great Weapons: 8 points per model
    How would you feel about that? How would you equip them?
     
  17. Pinktaco
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    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Internal balance wise I think it's an interesting proposition. 42pts monstrous infantry isn't that bad. 4 models would be 178pts with a champ. They still work good as a support unit and the interesting thing is that they are now something you'd want to target with your magic. I wouldn't want AHW.

    External balance wise I cannot help, but think of trolls. They are 35 damn points which is ridiculously low. Yes their weakness is their low Ld and stupidity, but that can be overcome. Not only that, but they have a regen .___.

    Personally though I'm all for more options. I'd give saurus warriors the opportunity to have great weapons and same with CoRs and what you proposed for kroxigors would all be welcome in my book. Maybe not the absolute most competitive, but the more options the better the way I see it.
     
  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

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    Trolls are tough to beat, they are definitely the king of monstrous infantry. They are cheap, resilient and sport the awesome troll vomit ability. If you can manage their stupidity and keep them away from fire, they will destroy most things. Kroxigor can't match up to them unless they get some sort of boost in their defensive resilience. Tack on a 3+ armour save and a musician... and we might just have a very useful unit.

    Great weapons on Saurus warriors would make them absolute beasts.
     
  19. Mr Phat
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    Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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    Halberd option for Saurus

    Greatweapon option for Templeguards.

    There, both became valid and useful units.

    But to stay on topic:


    Crypt Horrors = Trolls
    Regarding usefulness imo...both are laughably undercosted (I play VC too)
     
  20. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

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    That would be a great option for both units.

    Having regen gives them both a huge advantage of our Kroxigor. Kroxigor are simply too brittle.
     

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