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8th Ed. anyone else wanting to stop playing lizards ?
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Saurus
ElectricPaladin
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I think that's a pretty gross exaggeration. Do you care to elaborate? The changes I see don't seem to be too drastic. And we got a couple of interesting new toys: bastilodons, high magic, ripperdactyls. What's the problem?
Jungle Swarm
morgrendel
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No. High Magic is weak and doesn't have a lot of synergy, lore attribute is weak. Spell Swapping is weak in both incarnations. Magic Items are expensive, and not especially useful (OK, the Egg is fun, it is essential a skink assassin - where is it)
Overall, nothing new. Just iterationss on what we already have.
THAT SAID...
Two Carnisaur lists are playable
Monstermash at 2000 is soooo fun.
EotG is a steal to me.
Saurus are worth every point.
If I were wishlisting . . .
I'd add more scouts.
An army builld that has magic resistance when you don't take a slann.
More Winds dice.
Overall, nothing new. Just iterationss on what we already have.
THAT SAID...
Two Carnisaur lists are playable
Monstermash at 2000 is soooo fun.
EotG is a steal to me.
Saurus are worth every point.
If I were wishlisting . . .
I'd add more scouts.
An army builld that has magic resistance when you don't take a slann.
More Winds dice.
Temple Guard
Silverbolt
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That's still pretty vague and not really helpful. Could you be more specific?
Saurus
Malebranche
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I prefer the old book but the new one isn't as bad as people think. Then again I played tyranids since 3rd edition 40k so maybe I just have a different perspective.
I actually find high magic to be pretty good. The ability to tear up magic items can be huge game changer, as can buffing the WS of a huge Saurus block. The damage/magic missile spells can be situational but allow you to thin enemy ranks at a distance then swap them out for better stuff later. Taking spells from life/shadows, for example, allows you to make a lone Slann almost untouchable as well as further buffing your units (shadow shenanigans with a feathered Skink priest + recovering wounds). It essentially allows you to tailor your magic phase to your opponents list after the game has started, which is insanely useful. Yes, the spells are mostly sub-par compared to other Fl
Lores, but treating it as an all-comers lore it can be very useful.
Of course, I think they went a bit too far with the Slann nerf, Trogs are painfully bad, they missed a lot of potential with COC and upping the cost of the Carnosaur was stupid.
I'm obviously not denying that the new book has problems, and "it could be worse" is a pretty bad defense but I wouldn't say it's "bad" anyway.
Of course I don't have many opponents so I could be completely wrong, I'll admit that. But it has served me pretty well so far, I have won about 50% of my games and never use the same list twice, so that speaks well for both the internal and external balance of the book imo.
*edit* That post seems far more negative than I intended. I pretty much meant to say it has its problems, it's not perfect, but it is quite good.
I actually find high magic to be pretty good. The ability to tear up magic items can be huge game changer, as can buffing the WS of a huge Saurus block. The damage/magic missile spells can be situational but allow you to thin enemy ranks at a distance then swap them out for better stuff later. Taking spells from life/shadows, for example, allows you to make a lone Slann almost untouchable as well as further buffing your units (shadow shenanigans with a feathered Skink priest + recovering wounds). It essentially allows you to tailor your magic phase to your opponents list after the game has started, which is insanely useful. Yes, the spells are mostly sub-par compared to other Fl
Lores, but treating it as an all-comers lore it can be very useful.
Of course, I think they went a bit too far with the Slann nerf, Trogs are painfully bad, they missed a lot of potential with COC and upping the cost of the Carnosaur was stupid.
I'm obviously not denying that the new book has problems, and "it could be worse" is a pretty bad defense but I wouldn't say it's "bad" anyway.
Of course I don't have many opponents so I could be completely wrong, I'll admit that. But it has served me pretty well so far, I have won about 50% of my games and never use the same list twice, so that speaks well for both the internal and external balance of the book imo.
*edit* That post seems far more negative than I intended. I pretty much meant to say it has its problems, it's not perfect, but it is quite good.
Razordon
RipperDerek
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The new book is not unplayable, but I acknowledge there's a fair amount to hate about it.
Troglodons are not just useless, they're also a mess in general. They're supposed to be blind, but they have a BS based shooting attack? He supposedly lives underground, and maneuvers carefully by using his whiskers to feel out where he's going, so of course he should run around in open fields at M7? The other lizards are all afraid of it, so hearing it roar inspires your fighters to greater heights? Seriously, what the heck is wrong with this thing? It's a waste of points and a flavor mess.
There's a ton of really sloppy rules. Is Predatory fighter meant to work with supporting attacks or not? Why is a Slann worse than a Skink at reigning in your Predatory fighters? Shouldn't Skink characters on Rippers be able to join Ripper units? Speaking of which, do they get to place / take advantage of bloat toads? Is it intentional that supporting attacks can't hit Krox in a mixed unit? Do the special AoE spells found throughout the book ignore the "in combat" restrictions from the BRB? How does the Egg of Quango work in a challenge? When multiple Salamanders fire, how are the shots resolved (sequentially or simultaneously)? Does the Piranha Blade really give the character in general the Multiple Wounds (D3) special rule, instead of just attacks from the Piranha blade? The answers to these questions have a major impact on how lists are built.
Cold One Riders can't take a magic banner? Seriously, for all those points? Inner Circle Knights cost 9 points less per model, are Core, aren't stupid, come with a 1+ armor save and lances, can take magic banners, and can swap in great weapons for free. But I have to spend 4 points a model just to get spears?
Whose bright idea was it to give Kroxigor a bunch of special abilities that only function in the first rank, like Stomp and Predatory fighter, when they always fight from the second rank in mixed units? And then just to rub salt in the wound, change it so they're not even protected from attacks by being in the second rank, just in case you thought there might be some reason to do this? It's like someone really, really hated Skrox blocks, and wanted to ensure they were as terrible as possible. Saurus and Skink Skirmishers for life (apparently).
The list goes on. There are elements of the book that are still powerful, so it's not unplayable, but an unfortunately large amount of it is sorta depressing. It's not nearly as well constructed or as well thought out as many of the other recent book updates.
Troglodons are not just useless, they're also a mess in general. They're supposed to be blind, but they have a BS based shooting attack? He supposedly lives underground, and maneuvers carefully by using his whiskers to feel out where he's going, so of course he should run around in open fields at M7? The other lizards are all afraid of it, so hearing it roar inspires your fighters to greater heights? Seriously, what the heck is wrong with this thing? It's a waste of points and a flavor mess.
There's a ton of really sloppy rules. Is Predatory fighter meant to work with supporting attacks or not? Why is a Slann worse than a Skink at reigning in your Predatory fighters? Shouldn't Skink characters on Rippers be able to join Ripper units? Speaking of which, do they get to place / take advantage of bloat toads? Is it intentional that supporting attacks can't hit Krox in a mixed unit? Do the special AoE spells found throughout the book ignore the "in combat" restrictions from the BRB? How does the Egg of Quango work in a challenge? When multiple Salamanders fire, how are the shots resolved (sequentially or simultaneously)? Does the Piranha Blade really give the character in general the Multiple Wounds (D3) special rule, instead of just attacks from the Piranha blade? The answers to these questions have a major impact on how lists are built.
Cold One Riders can't take a magic banner? Seriously, for all those points? Inner Circle Knights cost 9 points less per model, are Core, aren't stupid, come with a 1+ armor save and lances, can take magic banners, and can swap in great weapons for free. But I have to spend 4 points a model just to get spears?
Whose bright idea was it to give Kroxigor a bunch of special abilities that only function in the first rank, like Stomp and Predatory fighter, when they always fight from the second rank in mixed units? And then just to rub salt in the wound, change it so they're not even protected from attacks by being in the second rank, just in case you thought there might be some reason to do this? It's like someone really, really hated Skrox blocks, and wanted to ensure they were as terrible as possible. Saurus and Skink Skirmishers for life (apparently).
The list goes on. There are elements of the book that are still powerful, so it's not unplayable, but an unfortunately large amount of it is sorta depressing. It's not nearly as well constructed or as well thought out as many of the other recent book updates.
Saurus
JuQ
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Predatory fighter is just an army nerf. It is only there to force you pursue everytime, and that is a huge deal because that is what makes frenzy weak in this edition and every fighting guy in our book has that curse.
This is specially obvius when you check the fact that it is only skink characters, not slanns not any other skink, so the skink cohorts have to pursue when you have a single krox, troglodons have to do so even whentherider is almost like a character. But Carnosaurs don't get Predatory fighter because they are forced to pursue anyway due to the saurus character riding it or its own frenzy.
Also I don't really like the rules design of the blastiladon, it anty-synergic with your centrepiece, the slann, and has the crapiest bubble of all of its equivalents in WHFB. It's usuable but has nothing to compare with all those new no-brainers in other armies.
This is specially obvius when you check the fact that it is only skink characters, not slanns not any other skink, so the skink cohorts have to pursue when you have a single krox, troglodons have to do so even whentherider is almost like a character. But Carnosaurs don't get Predatory fighter because they are forced to pursue anyway due to the saurus character riding it or its own frenzy.
Also I don't really like the rules design of the blastiladon, it anty-synergic with your centrepiece, the slann, and has the crapiest bubble of all of its equivalents in WHFB. It's usuable but has nothing to compare with all those new no-brainers in other armies.
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Anton_S
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While not perfect I found the new book very refreshing. I like not having the overpowered options of last edition. I like several of the new units and if the get the FAQ right I think I might even like Predatory Fighter.
The army plays very nicely and I feel I have the tools I need to handle anything without resorting to unfair advantages like some of the old Disciplines.
If anything I'm keen to try more units and more different builds.
The army plays very nicely and I feel I have the tools I need to handle anything without resorting to unfair advantages like some of the old Disciplines.
If anything I'm keen to try more units and more different builds.
I am about to shelf them. I think the book is VERRY sloppy.
- Tiktaq'to gives his WS to the other terradons in his units. Thats all nice and dandy but he cant join any terradons.
- Tetto eko has an ability that lets him re-roll comet arrival. But hes only lvl 2 and the chance you dont even HAVE the comet spell is pretty large.
- Predfighter is a mess. With supporting attacks and all that. (And ofc skinks being able to hold back saurus but a slann cannot)
- There was realy no need to nerf the krox/skink unit.
- Only TG able to take a banner....realy?
- Rippers low leadership+frenzy doesnt work with their role.
There are so many errors in it that even i as a novince warhammer player notice right away. Why did this book hit the shelves b4 some1 that actualy plays warhammer read through it?
On top of it all the LM book is, ppart from TK , realy the weakest 8th book so far.
- Tiktaq'to gives his WS to the other terradons in his units. Thats all nice and dandy but he cant join any terradons.
- Tetto eko has an ability that lets him re-roll comet arrival. But hes only lvl 2 and the chance you dont even HAVE the comet spell is pretty large.
- Predfighter is a mess. With supporting attacks and all that. (And ofc skinks being able to hold back saurus but a slann cannot)
- There was realy no need to nerf the krox/skink unit.
- Only TG able to take a banner....realy?
- Rippers low leadership+frenzy doesnt work with their role.
There are so many errors in it that even i as a novince warhammer player notice right away. Why did this book hit the shelves b4 some1 that actualy plays warhammer read through it?
On top of it all the LM book is, ppart from TK , realy the weakest 8th book so far.
Razordon
Ondjage
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- Tiktaq'to gives his WS to the other terradons in his units. Thats all nice and dandy but he cant join any terradons.
Yeah thats awkward
- Tetto eko has an ability that lets him re-roll comet arrival. But hes only lvl 2 and the chance you dont even HAVE the comet spell is pretty large.
Tetto'eko is loremaster
- Predfighter is a mess. With supporting attacks and all that. (And ofc skinks being able to hold back saurus but a slann cannot)
Its only a mess until it gets clarified. The slann is too drowsy to retain them.
- There was realy no need to nerf the krox/skink unit.
That is a matter of opinion
Yeah thats awkward
- Tetto eko has an ability that lets him re-roll comet arrival. But hes only lvl 2 and the chance you dont even HAVE the comet spell is pretty large.
Tetto'eko is loremaster
- Predfighter is a mess. With supporting attacks and all that. (And ofc skinks being able to hold back saurus but a slann cannot)
Its only a mess until it gets clarified. The slann is too drowsy to retain them.
- There was realy no need to nerf the krox/skink unit.
That is a matter of opinion
My feelings on the book are probably well known on this forum by now, but I tend to agree with RipperDerek. Badly designed and sloppily implemented. When compared to the Dark Elf book, which is my second army, it strongly feels like Vetock crapped this out in his free time whilst doing something more important.
I won't stop playing it, because Lizardmen are my first army, but it feels like a chore. I'm definitely going to be playing my Dark Elves much more.
I won't stop playing it, because Lizardmen are my first army, but it feels like a chore. I'm definitely going to be playing my Dark Elves much more.
Saurus
jg0124
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The new rules made skrox units mostly useless. Rippers are useless after the first time the hit something. Bastilidon with the solar engine is like playing skaven or orcs. the ark can be useful in certain lists. Trog is situational at best. Nerfing salamanders then upping the cost. etc...
I'm a new Lizzy owner/player, but with 2 oppos in my local group, I have faced them a lot. I have always wanted Lizzy's, they were my second choice, after Beastmen, just for the look. And after 10+ years, I finally got one when someone decided they had to let theirs go to e-bay.
The new book seems to balance the army out to me. I doubt I'll ever field or face the Double-Slaan+Skink Horde again. And good riddance. It was sooooo predictable at tourney's. There are actually several VERY viable builds within the new book for someone with imagination.
Those of you thinking GW could have put more thought into rules, well, welcome to Warhammer gaming. Real gamers have been bashing GW rules-writing since they started publishing.
If you think your overpowered builds were not going to get nerfed some day, than you need to take a reality-check pill. An example is the Skrox unit. Trying to kill off 50 skinks before you ever get to touch what is killing your guys is probably about the most aggravating combat to be in. Thank you GW for reducing angst in the gaming community. Bottom line is, the previous iteration of that units presence in a list was so predictable it HAD to be overpowered. Just like the new WoC nurgle deamon prince.
I'm going to really enjoy playing lizzys under the new book. It has tons of fun options for builds, great lore, still about the best mage in the game (pleas exclude special characters. I do) and the ability to build a list that has good elements in all 4 phases of the game: Movement, Magic, Shooting, Combat. With 4500+ points of troops n my newly acquired army, I'll never field the same build twice in a row. Love it!
The new book seems to balance the army out to me. I doubt I'll ever field or face the Double-Slaan+Skink Horde again. And good riddance. It was sooooo predictable at tourney's. There are actually several VERY viable builds within the new book for someone with imagination.
Those of you thinking GW could have put more thought into rules, well, welcome to Warhammer gaming. Real gamers have been bashing GW rules-writing since they started publishing.
If you think your overpowered builds were not going to get nerfed some day, than you need to take a reality-check pill. An example is the Skrox unit. Trying to kill off 50 skinks before you ever get to touch what is killing your guys is probably about the most aggravating combat to be in. Thank you GW for reducing angst in the gaming community. Bottom line is, the previous iteration of that units presence in a list was so predictable it HAD to be overpowered. Just like the new WoC nurgle deamon prince.
I'm going to really enjoy playing lizzys under the new book. It has tons of fun options for builds, great lore, still about the best mage in the game (pleas exclude special characters. I do) and the ability to build a list that has good elements in all 4 phases of the game: Movement, Magic, Shooting, Combat. With 4500+ points of troops n my newly acquired army, I'll never field the same build twice in a row. Love it!
Generally, I think Salamanders are about right now. The points cost isn't too high, and they are still good at doing what they should do: killing big infantry units. That they aren't auto-includes anymore due to the march and shoot nerf is a good thing. You're right about Skroxigor though.
Surprisingly, I've actually found Ripperdactyls to be quite handy to have around. It really helps when you have something mobile that can go out and get points, and even one of them left alive will usually throw out a ton of attacks and to lots of damage to their Bloat Toad target.
I think Solar Engines Bastiladons can work in a no-Slann list, though I agree that they are way to random to truly rely upon. The Ark and Troglodon are simply terrible though. Including them in the book is simply a waste of print.
Surprisingly, I've actually found Ripperdactyls to be quite handy to have around. It really helps when you have something mobile that can go out and get points, and even one of them left alive will usually throw out a ton of attacks and to lots of damage to their Bloat Toad target.
I think Solar Engines Bastiladons can work in a no-Slann list, though I agree that they are way to random to truly rely upon. The Ark and Troglodon are simply terrible though. Including them in the book is simply a waste of print.