8th Ed. Applying multiple wounds

[Ondjage]

In wich order are multiple wounds apply?

Say a carnosaur causes 3 wounding hits to a block of 3-wound ogres; Do you roll the three D3 multiple wounds and then the number is the amount of wounds caused? Or do you roll each die separately and substract the number from one ogre at a time?

For example, if you get 2 - 3 - 1 on your dice for the multiple wounds, will this kill two ogres, or will it kill one ogre and deal a single wound to another?

 

[hilburn]

BRB page 73

Where the number of Multiple Wounds is generated by a dice roll, roll a dice separately for each unsaved wound and use the total of all the dice rolled for the final number of wounds inflicted

So 3D3 wounds on the unit, so 2 ogres dead in the example you gave

 

[n810]

Yep Hillburn is right.

 

[Ondjage]

Alright thanks, I only have access to the island of blood rule book.. Waiting for 9th edition or more money I guess



PS:

It still would´nt kill 6 clarats right..?

 

[n810]

Yea you still can't multiwound. single wound models.
(3 dead rats)

 

[rantapanda]

If we just look at the BRB p.73 there is 2 dead ogres.

If we look at BRB p.45 regarding hits inflicting multiple wounds, it would be 1 dead ogre and 1 wounded ogre. as the wounds do not carry over to the next ogre.

However page 45 is in the section of "shooting" so does it effect close combat situations?

page 48, basicly states that hits are always done against a model, not a unit. so again basicly, its quite the same deal.

so its 1 dead ogre and 1 wounded ogre.

altho i feel this is still debatable and theres no exact ruling that the wounds do not carry over...........

however, people seem to keep saying that multiple wounding doesnt account to models with 1 wound.
I cant find any ruling which would state so.
multiple wounding does effect models with singe wound, (but its redundant to roll for those wounds since the wounds do not carry over, or do they? )

if u wish to keep playing like so that its 2 dead ogres, then in the same situation against say random orcs, it would be 6 killed orcs?

i think ive discussed this matter earlier somewhere but cant seem to find the thread.. : P

RAI is probably 1 dead ogre, 1 wounded one

 

[VampTeddy]

If we just look at the BRB p.73 there is 2 dead ogres.

If we look at BRB p.45 regarding hits inflicting multiple wounds, it would be 1 dead ogre and 1 wounded ogre. as the wounds do not carry over to the next ogre.

However page 45 is in the section of "shooting" so does it effect close combat situations?

page 48, basicly states that hits are always done against a model, not a unit. so again basicly, its quite the same deal.

so its 1 dead ogre and 1 wounded ogre.

altho i feel this is still debatable and theres no exact ruling that the wounds do not carry over...........

however, people seem to keep saying that multiple wounding doesnt account to models with 1 wound.
I cant find any ruling which would state so.
multiple wounding does effect models with singe wound, (but its redundant to roll for those wounds since the wounds do not carry over, or do they? )

if u wish to keep playing like so that its 2 dead ogres, then in the same situation against say random orcs, it would be 6 killed orcs?

i think ive discussed this matter earlier somewhere but cant seem to find the thread.. : P

RAI is probably 1 dead ogre, 1 wounded one

RAW is 1 dead Ogre and 1 wounded ogre.

You roll to hit.

You roll to wound.

You roll multiple wounds - for each hit caused, separately. The rule states that if the multiple wound is decided by a dice roll - add all of the dices rolled together. It doesn't state that you should roll all of your wounds together. When you deal a single wound to a model, you don't add them up - you deal large amounts of single wounds. The same is true here, you deal several times 1 d3 multiple wounds.

 

[rantapanda]

If we just look at the BRB p.73 there is 2 dead ogres.

If we look at BRB p.45 regarding hits inflicting multiple wounds, it would be 1 dead ogre and 1 wounded ogre. as the wounds do not carry over to the next ogre.

However page 45 is in the section of "shooting" so does it effect close combat situations?

page 48, basicly states that hits are always done against a model, not a unit. so again basicly, its quite the same deal.

so its 1 dead ogre and 1 wounded ogre.

altho i feel this is still debatable and theres no exact ruling that the wounds do not carry over...........

however, people seem to keep saying that multiple wounding doesnt account to models with 1 wound.
I cant find any ruling which would state so.
multiple wounding does effect models with singe wound, (but its redundant to roll for those wounds since the wounds do not carry over, or do they? )

if u wish to keep playing like so that its 2 dead ogres, then in the same situation against say random orcs, it would be 6 killed orcs?

i think ive discussed this matter earlier somewhere but cant seem to find the thread.. : P

RAI is probably 1 dead ogre, 1 wounded one

RAW is 1 dead Ogre and 1 wounded ogre.

You roll to hit.

You roll to wound.

You roll multiple wounds - for each hit caused, separately. The rule states that if the multiple wound is decided by a dice roll - add all of the dices rolled together. It doesn't state that you should roll all of your wounds together. When you deal a single wound to a model, you don't add them up - you deal large amounts of single wounds. The same is true here, you deal several times 1 d3 multiple wounds.

so what you are saying actually is that 1 ogre dies and 1 is unharmed

 

[Noveltyboy]

If your quoting pages then read the whole thing including the multi wound effects on multi wounds models. You roll all the wounds applying them one model at a time noting extra wounds on the unit so the quick way we all do it is for instance 7 wounds is 2 dead ogres and 1 ogre xown to 2 wounds. It clearly states this applies to magic and weapons as well as cannons n the like.

 

[rantapanda]

oh i see.
i must have misunderstood that part. got it. thanks.

so does a cannon shooting at ogres, wounding 6 on the wounding number, kill 2 ogres ?

 

[Screamer]

oh i see.
i must have misunderstood that part. got it. thanks.

so does a cannon shooting at ogres, wounding 6 on the wounding number, kill 2 ogres ?

No, because multiple-wound weapons can never cause more wounds on a single model than it has on the profile. It's on the same page.

The "spare wounds" is not allocated to a single model, but on the unit.

 

[rantapanda]

ah seems i got a bit confused.

the multi-wound models and multi-wound weapons sections refers to for example spells such as fiery convocation, and doesnt really have anything to do with our discussion here. got me confused when i though we were talking about cc.

so back to the original example.

one ogre is killed and one is wounded, when a carnosaur inflicts 3 unsaved wounds and then rolls 2 - 3 - 1.
the first ogre gets 5 wounds and thus 2 of the wounds are wasted and the last one gets one wound.

if a mortar hits a group of 6 ogres, does 6 wounds, then 2 ogres die right?

a cannon hits an ogre, rolls 4 wounds, the ogre dies and nothing is behind the said ogre, nothing else happens.

--

although, there is still the question does the page 45 apply to cc as it is under the topic "shooting"

 

[Noveltyboy]

oh i see.
i must have misunderstood that part. got it. thanks.

so does a cannon shooting at ogres, wounding 6 on the wounding number, kill 2 ogres ?

No, because multiple-wound weapons can never cause more wounds on a single model than it has on the profile. It's on the same page.

The "spare wounds" is not allocated to a single model, but on the unit.

Yes but if your inflicting d3 wounds then you cant exceed the wounds it has on its profile. Shooting rules are different, hell if the cannon ball only does 1 wound on the first guy it stops anyway but a steg on the charge doing d3 wounds cant go over the ogres 3 wounds per model so say you roll 7 wounds after multipliers you kill 2 ogres and wound 1. The spare wounds are allocated to the unit not single models, the unit is made up of all the models and with the exception of characters and champions with multiple wounds you always remove wounded models first. Its not like 40k where a unit can have multiple wounded models so your point is moot.

 

[Noveltyboy]

ah seems i got a bit confused.

the multi-wound models and multi-wound weapons sections refers to for example spells such as fiery convocation, and doesnt really have anything to do with our discussion here. got me confused when i though we were talking about cc.

so back to the original example.

one ogre is killed and one is wounded, when a carnosaur inflicts 3 unsaved wounds and then rolls 2 - 3 - 1.
the first ogre gets 5 wounds and thus 2 of the wounds are wasted and the last one gets one wound.

if a mortar hits a group of 6 ogres, does 6 wounds, then 2 ogres die right?

a cannon hits an ogre, rolls 4 wounds, the ogre dies and nothing is behind the said ogre, nothing else happens.

--

although, there is still the question does the page 45 apply to cc as it is under the topic "shooting"

Your right on all but as the carno does d3 wounds there can be no wasted wounds coz your not exceeding wounds on a models profile unless its 1 or 2 wound models then you can have wasted wounds as you say. Mortar central hole can kill a single model as is multiple wound S6 then the rest get spread as in single shot shooting

 

[rantapanda]

oh i see.
i must have misunderstood that part. got it. thanks.

so does a cannon shooting at ogres, wounding 6 on the wounding number, kill 2 ogres ?

No, because multiple-wound weapons can never cause more wounds on a single model than it has on the profile. It's on the same page.

The "spare wounds" is not allocated to a single model, but on the unit.

Yes but if your inflicting d3 wounds then you cant exceed the wounds it has on its profile. Shooting rules are different, hell if the cannon ball only does 1 wound on the first guy it stops anyway but a steg on the charge doing d3 wounds cant go over the ogres 3 wounds per model so say you roll 7 wounds after multipliers you kill 2 ogres and wound 1. The spare wounds are allocated to the unit not single models, the unit is made up of all the models and with the exception of characters and champions with multiple wounds you always remove wounded models first. Its not like 40k where a unit can have multiple wounded models so your point is moot.

and i believe the point in the ogre example is that the first hit does 2 wounds to ogre number 1, which leaves ogre number 1 with 1 wound left. the second hit hits the ogre number 1 and does 3 wounds. the ogre number 1 can only suffer 3 wounds max and because there is total 5 wounds suffered the 2 wounds are wasted. then the last hit hits ogre number 2 and does 1 wound. I believe most people play this rule like this.

i see you are talking about a mechanic which works like this: you roll 3 hits and roll 2 + 3 + 1 wounds, and you kind of distribute the hits to different ogres, say you allocate the wounds like this; orge1 gets the first hit and suffers 2 wounds, the ogre2 get the second hit, get 3 wounds and dies, then u get back to ogre1 which get the third hit and suffers a third wound and dies. am i correct? If the wounds would be D4, and the results would be 2 + 4 + 1 the outcome would be the same then right? since the 4 wounded ogre would only get 3 wounds and 1 wound would be wasted.
or are u just simply counting the 6 wounds together and then removing 2 ogres? simply because p.45 is only for shooting rules.

im not sure which mechanic is the correct way since the rules can be understood both ways i think. the latter has some problems though.
so please tell me why wouldnt this work, (especially if u simply count the 6 wounds together and remove 2 ogres)
if we apply only the p 73 rule, Multiple Wounds, disregard the p 45 stuff cos we are now in cc
SV with pirahna blade whacks a group of orcs, do 3 wounds, which multiply to 3 + 3 + 1, it kills 7 orcs then?

btw charging steg hits are allocated as shooting, in the same outcome, it would kill only 3 orcs right?

 

[Noveltyboy]

You have to apply the whole page 45 bit as the last line clearly states this applies to spells and weapons that have the multi wound rule. So then you cant ignore the bit about excess wounds being applied to the unit.

Unless your in a challenge multi wound never applies to single wound models and even then it just adds to the overkill score which is also stated either in the rulebook or faq I cant remember

 

[rantapanda]

You should read that part which you are referring to. the last bit is "This method is also applied if such a unit is attacked by a spell or weapon that causes a hit on every model in the unit".

before that there is this: you need to determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually, and a model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on it profile. (a model doesnt shuffle behind the ranks to be replaced by another full health model)

in short, in our original original example 1 ogre is killed and 1 ogre is wounded. not 2 ogres killed.
(if we still count that this thing also counts in cc)

 

[Ondjage]

So you roll one die at a time, applying the number of wounds to one model at a time?

Because if you roll all 3 dice at the same time, the order in which you apply them will affect the damage-output.


Also; if you add the wounds generated from the hits to the unit of ogres altogether, you will kill 2 ogres. This is a stupid way of doing it, because you can create a similar situation:

Carnosaur deals 2 wounds to a unit of ripper dactyls (2 wounds each); you roll 3 on both dice (6 wounds), and kill 3 ripperdactyls. If the same carnosaur was attacking a unit of clan rats, it would only kill 2 clan rats. Thats counter intuitive imo

 

[Noveltyboy]

The way its playex everywhere I play it for simplicity and time saving is roll all the multi wounds then knock those off the unit. Ive never seen a reference to discarding excess wounds it says note them on the unit implying wounds carry over. If you roll 3 d3 wounds whos to say the first roll of 5 or 6 doesnt kill the first model your hardly going to put the first 1 or 2 on him them the 5 or 6 and discard the 2 left over wounds when doing it the other way kills and wounds more models. It also never says apply wounds then roll hour dice one at a time.

Play it how you wilk as the rules change soon anyway but thats the way its been played since the book came out locally and at the 3 tourneys ive attended Iin the last few years and as its never been put jn a faq I would assume the majority are doing it the correct way

 

[hilburn]

So you roll one die at a time, applying the number of wounds to one model at a time?

Because if you roll all 3 dice at the same time, the order in which you apply them will affect the damage-output.


Also; if you add the wounds generated from the hits to the unit of ogres altogether, you will kill 2 ogres. This is a stupid way of doing it, because you can create a similar situation:

Carnosaur deals 2 wounds to a unit of ripper dactyls (2 wounds each); you roll 3 on both dice (6 wounds), and kill 3 ripperdactyls. If the same carnosaur was attacking a unit of clan rats, it would only kill 2 clan rats. Thats counter intuitive imo

The number of wounds you can do with multiple wounds is capped at the wound value of a single target model.

Therefore in the above example you kill 2 clanrans and 2 ripperdactyls, not 3.

If you roll eg 3 MW(d3) against something with 2 wounds and get 1, 2, 3 that's 5 wounds. 2 kills and a half. You don't have to apply the 2 wounds to the same model that took the 1 wound, wasting a wound, the wounds go to the unit.

A pseudeocode representation would be as follows:

WoundsDealt=0
For Each(Wound)
WoundsDealt+=Min(TargetWound, MultiWound#)
Next Wound
Apply(WoundsDealt)

eg, 6 wounds with Multiwound d6 on something with 3 wounds, get 1,2,3,4,5,6 on the raw rolls, apply 1,2,3,3,3,3=15 wounds because of the cap

Hope this helps clear things up, ignore the code if it confuses you, it's just a different way of representing it