8th Ed. Applying multiple wounds

[Noveltyboy]

I dont get why your applying the cap when it says carry over spare wounds on the unit. As you roll you multi wounds at the same time then they do pool nowhere does it say apply then one at a time ignore the excess. Noone ive spoken to about this agrees there is this imaginary cap that is there purely to stop someone trying to apply multi wounds for combat res on models that cant be affected by multiple wounds. The onlh exception to this is the cannon ball which is technically applied one model at a time on monstrous things as if you fail to kill the guy in front your ball stops.

I would point out ive been playing for 18 yrs and all the guys at my club are vets of equal time and more and as yet noone has disagreed with this method.

 

[hilburn]

The reason there is a cap is that, as pointed out by Ondjage, without it you can suddenly kill more multiple wound models than you can single wound models with the same number of attacks. This is clearly lunacy.

No individual attack (so ignoring war machines etc) should be able to kill more than 1 model

The 'excess wounds' you refer to are the wounds that have been dealt which haven't resulted in removing a model. Thus 5 wounds on a Ripperdactyl unit results in 2 kills and 1 excess wound, recorded against future wounding, so a further 5 wounds would be 3 kills no excess.

If your gaming club chooses to play with a different interpretation of the rules and everyone agrees then great, however if you tried to use that interpretation at a tournament against me I would definitely argue against it and would probably win for the reason given in paragraph 1.

 

[rantapanda]

The way its playex everywhere I play it for simplicity and time saving is roll all the multi wounds then knock those off the unit. Ive never seen a reference to discarding excess wounds it says note them on the unit implying wounds carry over. If you roll 3 d3 wounds whos to say the first roll of 5 or 6 doesnt kill the first model your hardly going to put the first 1 or 2 on him them the 5 or 6 and discard the 2 left over wounds when doing it the other way kills and wounds more models. It also never says apply wounds then roll hour dice one at a time.

Play it how you wilk as the rules change soon anyway but thats the way its been played since the book came out locally and at the 3 tourneys ive attended Iin the last few years and as its never been put jn a faq I would assume the majority are doing it the correct way

if we retrack the thread so far and again notice that in rbr is a sentence "..determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually.." so that means one-by-one
and there isnt really a phrase where it states the wounds are carried over to the next model.

indeed it seems you and your buddies have played it wrong so far. understandable since the RBR is what it is.
you could argue that the page 45 applies only to shooting since it is under shooting topic, but .. if we dont accept page 45 to apply overally to multiple wounding, then that would results in lots of complications with multiple wounds rule that makes the whole rule unbalanced and stupid.

 

[rantapanda]

I dont get why your applying the cap when it says carry over spare wounds on the unit. As you roll you multi wounds at the same time then they do pool nowhere does it say apply then one at a time ignore the excess. Noone ive spoken to about this agrees there is this imaginary cap that is there purely to stop someone trying to apply multi wounds for combat res on models that cant be affected by multiple wounds. The onlh exception to this is the cannon ball which is technically applied one model at a time on monstrous things as if you fail to kill the guy in front your ball stops.

I would point out ive been playing for 18 yrs and all the guys at my club are vets of equal time and more and as yet noone has disagreed with this method.

if page 45 would read "determine how many wounds are caused individually" then i would agree with you
however there is also the phrase "..are caused on each model.."
so u what at a one model at a time. and one model cannot suffer 10 wounds if it only has 3 wounds on its profile.
this is there to cut back on ridiculous CR.
The cannon ball is not an exeption, it follows the same rules of multiple wounds as everything else, but the ball itself just continues to the next fellow if it kills its target

also the authority argument is really a not strong way to present one's case.
especially in the internet forums.

 

[rantapanda]

Also doesnt a ripperdactyl only have 1 wounds?
Only the riders wound count here right?

 

[Screamer]

the individual RnF models in an unit does not have "individual" wounds, i.e. you never attack a specific "ogre 1".
The wounds are always applied to the unit, and when the unit has suffered enough wounds you remove models.

thats why you always can do up to 3w to a ogre-unit with a multiple wound weapon, and it doesn't matter of the unit has suffered previous wounds. Then you add all the wounds dealt to the unit, and remove models.

 

[rantapanda]

the individual RnF models in an unit does not have "individual" wounds, i.e. you never attack a specific "ogre 1".
The wounds are always applied to the unit, and when the unit has suffered enough wounds you remove models.

thats why you always can do up to 3w to a ogre-unit with a multiple wound weapon, and it doesn't matter of the unit has suffered previous wounds. Then you add all the wounds dealt to the unit, and remove models.

the ogre1,ogre2,ogre3 stuff was merely an example of how to allocate the wounds

page 45
"Any leftover wounds that were not enough to remove a model are carried over and will be added to the wounds inflicted by any subsequent attacks" (and no the multiple wound hits dont carry over)

also "you are not allowed to spread the wounds throughout the unit to avoid suffering casualties.."

yes the wounds are kind of applied to the unit. but not in that way you state.
if there is an ogre group of three ogres, two of them are in full health, one has only 1 wound left,
and there is a comet doing 100000wounds on a single model, then the comet hit is applied to the one ogre already wounded, kindoff, so the result will be an ogre bunch of two healthy ogres who are facing a panic test.
as the already wounded ogre cannot suffer more than 3 wounds, it dies.

not a group of two ogres where one of them has one wound, that need to take a panic test.

 

[Ondjage]

Also doesnt a ripperdactyl only have 1 wounds?
Only the riders wound count here right?

It has two:

"All the cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry, with one exception - monstrous cavalry always use the highest Wounds characteristics the model has, rather than automatically using the rider's - indeed, this will normally mean that the model uses the mount's Wounds characteristic."


Page 83, small rulebook (from island of blood)

 

[rantapanda]

Also doesnt a ripperdactyl only have 1 wounds?
Only the riders wound count here right?

It has two:

"All the cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry, with one exception - monstrous cavalry always use the highest Wounds characteristics the model has, rather than automatically using the rider's - indeed, this will normally mean that the model uses the mount's Wounds characteristic."


Page 83, small rulebook (from island of blood)

cool!

 

[Demelain]

My my, alot of confusion with this rule, its not really that hard.

Heres an example using a cannon on a unit of ogres 3 ranks deep.

Cannon shoots and gets a bounce long enough to get through the whole unit.

the cannonball hits an ogre in the first rank rolling a 6 for the number of wounds, as an ogre only has 3 wounds only 3 wounds are counted, the rest is lost.

The cannonball continues and hits an ogre in the 2nd rank, it get a 4 for number of wounds, again a maximum of 3 wounds can be caused so the last wound is discounted. the ogre unit now has 6 wounds on it in total.

The cannon hits the last ogre in rank 3 and gets a 2 for number of wounds, this i fine since ogres has 3 wounds each both the wounds are counted.

The ogre unit now has 8 wound on it in total, 2 ogres are removed and a counter is placed so you can rember that the unit has 2 wounds on it.

The next time a single wound i caused to the unit a ogre dies.

This works the same for the carnosauer d3 wounds and the pirana blade as well.

Hope this helps clear things up.

 

[rantapanda]

Haha thats exactly how it goes.
Though thats not really the problem we have been discussing here.

The question is what would be the end result if the unit woyuld already have 1 or 2 wounds on it?

(answer:exactly the same as your previously mentioned end result)

 

[twistedmagpie]

you could argue that the page 45 applies only to shooting since it is under shooting topic, but .. if we dont accept page 45 to apply overally to multiple wounding, then that would results in lots of complications with multiple wounds rule that makes the whole rule unbalanced and stupid.

For the record, on page 51 under Close Combat, it states that you remove models in exactly the same way as you do with shooting.

Anyway I think the issue most people are having is with multiple hits not doing enough wounds to kill models. Using the cannon example....there are 3 ranks of ogres. The first model is hit and takes 2 wounds from the multiple wounds rule, the second hit also does 2 wounds, and the final hit only does 1 multiple wound. This means that according to 'Multiple Wound Models and Multiple Wound Weapons' section it clearly states that you 'add up all the wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models'. So the total of 5 wounds have been done and 1 model is removed with 2 wounds taken off the last ogre in the unit.

However as already mentioned.... if you're doing D6 multiple wounds then the maximum you take from any single 'multiple wound roll' is 3 because that's the wounds profile on the ogres. So for an example, the cannon ball does 2,4,1 multiple wound rolls you would take 2,3,1 equaling 6 wounds and remove 2 ogres.

 

[Screamer]

You have to kill the first ogre with the cannonball, otherwise the cannonball stops and inflicts no further wounds.
It's under the warmachine rules. MI/MC/MB/mo sters stops the cannonball.

 

[twistedmagpie]

Sorry, I'm also a Skaven player and that rule does't effect our Warp Lightening Cannon

 

[Korhedron]

Hi folks. Sorry if this is a bit confusing to my primitive lizard brain. I'm a returning player, and I must say I have some issues with this. But this issue cropped up recently, and I have a poor head for these things. Could i have a clear recap from this thread, in the form of this example here?

I charge a saurus oldblood on foot out of a unit and into 4 skullcrushers. He has the Piranha blade and the stegadon helmet. Crushers have 3 wounds each, WoC-list. Result: 2 wounding impact hits, and 3 wounding close combat hits, all after as is taken. The unit of 'crushers have 1 previous wound from skink fire, and has a champioon. Because of 'Eye of the Gods', he had to challenge my lord, and I must accept.

Now we resolve the wounds.
1) Impact. Am I correct in the following: 2xd3 wounds is scored on the unit, since impact hits is scored against r&f in the charged unit. Lets say 3 and 2 wounds. First hit kills off 1 crusher, second does 2 wounds, enough to kill second crusher? And NOT 2 wounds on first crusher (because of wound cap), and then 2 on the next, rigth?
2) Combat wounds. Champion takes 3xD3 wounds. Lets say 3+2+1. Dies after 3 wounds, and yields 6 to cr.

But lets say instead, an a.-stegadon charges a similar, but unwounded unit. It scores 4xd6 wounds from impacting hits. Then gets 1 additional wound in cc.
3) Impact. 4xd wounds scored, equals 5+4+3+2. Is this capped to 3+3+3+2, due to the unit only having 3 wounds per model, resulting in 1 wounded champion remaining for cc? Or is the unit wiped out to the sum of 14 total wounds?
4) How would this change if the 4'th member of the crushers untit was a theoretical hero, alike but with 1 more wounds than the regular unit?

Also;
5) my friend claims his crushers are wounded individually by regular saurus attacks, according to which model is in contact with which saurus. This results in a scenario with several r'nf models with 1 or 2 wounds remaining, rather than 1 dead model, assuming my unit scored 3+ wounds. Is this not utterly incorrect? He was adamant on it, unless we found the text saying it should be otherwise. I'd appreciate a rules quote on this, as well.

Sorry if I am retreading already muddy grounds, but I'd appreciate the a resolution, since this will likely crop up again.

 

[VampTeddy]

Also;
5) my friend claims his crushers are wounded individually by regular saurus attacks, according to which model is in contact with which saurus. This results in a scenario with several r'nf models with 1 or 2 wounds remaining, rather than 1 dead model, assuming my unit scored 3+ wounds. Is this not utterly incorrect? He was adamant on it, unless we found the text saying it should be otherwise. I'd appreciate a rules quote on this, as well.

Sorry if I am retreading already muddy grounds, but I'd appreciate the a resolution, since this will likely crop up again.

Don't want to get too far in on the above before i've read it through some more times.

The last part here though is you being correct.

You strike at the unit, unless only able to hit his champion (as when you are challenged or if your hero somehow only were in contact with him) - this mean the wounds are taken by the unit, and you will kill whole models and can never wound several models at a time.

 

[Demelain]

Direct qoute from the big red rulebook page 45

MODELS WITH MORE THAN ONE WOUND
Some particularly huge or hardy troops, such as Ogres, have more than one Wound on their profile. Should such a unit suffer wounds, you must remove as many whole models as possible. You are not allowed to spread the wounds throughout the unit to avoid suffering casualties, tempting though it may be to do so.
In this situation, divide the number of wounds caused by the Wounds characteristic of the models in the target unit, removing this number of models from the rear-most rank. Any leftover wounds that were not enough to remove a model are carried over and will be added to the wounds inflicted by any subsequent attacks.
For example: A unit of Ogres suffers 5 wounds from arrow fire. Ogres are huge creatures and each model has 3 Wounds. So, 5 wounds equals one model dead (3 wounds) with 2 wounds left over. The wounds left over are not enough to remove another model, so the player must make a note that 2 wounds have been suffered by the unit. If the unit takes another wound from some other attack later in the game, then another Ogre model is r



MULTI-WOUND MODELS AND MULTI-WOUND WEAPONS
If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit.
This method is also applied if such a unit is attacked by a spell or weapon that causes a hit on every model in the unit.



This
Should such a unit suffer wounds, you must remove as many whole models as possible

And this
You are not allowed to spread the wounds throughout the unit to avoid suffering casualties, tempting though it may be to do so.

Clear as day your opponent was cheating
Also ask him where the rules backing his veiwpoint is. If you have to prove your view of the rules he should have to prove his as well. This is always a good idea in a rules argument.
Demelain

 

[Korhedron]

Thanks, Demelain and VampTeddy! That was clear cut. I dunno, it sort of made sense that my guys only could wound what was in front of them, so i did no push it. Since I'm pretty much "Ohgod! Everything is new again and i don't know why half my guys are covered in bees and on fire!" ruleswise, I have asked so many questions. My friend gets a bit annoyed at bringing out the Big Book so much during play. But we've sorted most things out by now.

Thanks. Removing as many models as possible; cap each dice rolled at number of wounds pr model. Then add up all wounds and remove corresponding models + carry over spare wounds. Got it.

 

[godswearhats]

I charge a saurus oldblood on foot out of a unit and into 4 skullcrushers. He has the Piranha blade and the stegadon helmet. Crushers have 3 wounds each, WoC-list. Result: 2 wounding impact hits, and 3 wounding close combat hits, all after as is taken. The unit of 'crushers have 1 previous wound from skink fire, and has a champion. Because of 'Eye of the Gods', he had to challenge my lord, and I must accept.

Now we resolve the wounds.
1) Impact. Am I correct in the following: 2xd3 wounds is scored on the unit, since impact hits is scored against r&f in the charged unit. Lets say 3 and 2 wounds. First hit kills off 1 crusher, second does 2 wounds, enough to kill second crusher? And NOT 2 wounds on first crusher (because of wound cap), and then 2 on the next, right?

The Oldblood has the special rule Impact Hits (D3) from the Stegadon Helm. This means he will only do D3 hits, not 2xD3. The Piranha Blade has no effect on the Impact Hits. Only attacks with the Blade itself will do multiple wounds.

Those impact hits happen before challenges (see BRB under Impact Hits special rule). They are distributed against the unit as per shooting.

2) Combat wounds. Champion takes 3xD3 wounds. Lets say 3+2+1. Dies after 3 wounds, and yields 6 to cr.

This is correct.

But lets say instead, an a.-stegadon charges a similar, but unwounded unit. It scores 4xd6 wounds from impacting hits. Then gets 1 additional wound in cc.
3) Impact. 4xd wounds scored, equals 5+4+3+2. Is this capped to 3+3+3+2, due to the unit only having 3 wounds per model, resulting in 1 wounded champion remaining for cc? Or is the unit wiped out to the sum of 14 total wounds?

I think you've got Impact Hits confused. An Ancient Stegadon will do D6+1 impact hits. If it has Sharpened Horns then each of those hits will turn into D3 Wounds. However, to demonstrate how the rule works ...

Let's assume that each model has 2 wounds, and you roll 3, 2, 1 and 1 for your impact hits. Impact hits are distributed as per shooting, which means you must do at least 1 impact hit per model before you can do another. This is against the whole unit, not just those models in base contact.

So because the models in the unit can suffer a maximum of 2 wounds before dying, your rolls cap out to be 2, 2, 1, 1. You then add these up (6) and try to remove as many whole models as possible (in this case 3). This is all on P45 of the big rule book.

4) How would this change if the 4'th member of the crushers untit was a theoretical hero, alike but with 1 more wounds than the regular unit?

You can't allocate wounds to him, unless there are less than five rank and file models, or if he is a different model type (e.g. infantry). However, in either of those circumstances, the player who controls the unit can decide how to allocate hits, but each model needs to have one hit allocated to him before the next one. You'd then roll the multiple wounds for the hero separately from the others. (p99 of the big rule book).

Also;
5) my friend claims his crushers are wounded individually by regular saurus attacks, according to which model is in contact with which saurus. This results in a scenario with several r'nf models with 1 or 2 wounds remaining, rather than 1 dead model, assuming my unit scored 3+ wounds. Is this not utterly incorrect? He was adamant on it, unless we found the text saying it should be otherwise. I'd appreciate a rules quote on this, as well.

Sorry if I am retreading already muddy grounds, but I'd appreciate the a resolution, since this will likely crop up again.

This is completely wrong, as another poster has already mentioned.

Hope this helps,
~gwh

 

[Korhedron]

The Oldblood has the special rule Impact Hits (D3) from the Stegadon Helm. This means he will only do D3 hits, not 2xD3. The Piranha Blade has no effect on the Impact Hits. Only attacks with the Blade itself will do multiple wounds.

Those impact hits happen before challenges (see BRB under Impact Hits special rule). They are distributed against the unit as per shooting.

Yeah, 2xD3 there is from the 2 wounding impact hits being multiplied by the blade, as stated in the text. That's not a valid tactic? Darn. It was cheezy, but seemed like such a great combo. And our tactica article on the forums pointed out. Oh well, it WAS too good to be true.

I think you've got Impact Hits confused. An Ancient Stegadon will do D6+1 impact hits. If it has Sharpened Horns then each of those hits will turn into D3 Wounds. However, to demonstrate how the rule works ...

Let's assume that each model has 2 wounds, and you roll 3, 2, 1 and 1 for your impact hits. Impact hits are distributed as per shooting, which means you must do at least 1 impact hit per model before you can do another. This is against the whole unit, not just those models in base contact.

So because the models in the unit can suffer a maximum of 2 wounds before dying, your rolls cap out to be 2, 2, 1, 1. You then add these up (6) and try to remove as many whole models as possible (in this case 3). This is all on P45 of the big rule book.

I was assuming the 'sharpened horns' upgrade, and should maybe have stated that. But yeah, that's how the previous posters also defined the resolution!

You can't allocate wounds to him, unless there are less than five rank and file models, or if he is a different model type (e.g. infantry). However, in either of those circumstances, the player who controls the unit can decide how to allocate hits, but each model needs to have one hit allocated to him before the next one. You'd then roll the multiple wounds for the hero separately from the others. (p99 of the big rule book).

Thanks, that was how I assumed it would go, but my opponent had another point of view.
In all: thanks for clearing this up for me, folks! I'm printing out the rules quotes before our next game, so we can get it out before the game.