8th Ed. Armour modified

[The Omen]

A question that came up in a game I played last night - how do armour save modifiers work in 8th edition?

The example in question was a hellblaster volly gun - now under 8th edition rules it is S5 so has a -2 armour save modifer, but the rules also state that it has an armour save modifer of -3

So how does this work, we came up with 2 ideas the empire player suggested it should be -5 (-2 for S5 and -3 modifer), I suggested it should be -3 (just the armour save modifer and nothing else.)

As usual we looked over the rule book and couldn't find anything so we rolled a dice, I lost and most of my cold ones died.

Now the way we play says that the dice roll will stand until I can find something in the rule book to contradict it, but try as I might I can't find anything.

So I have 2 questions:
1) How do other people play this situation?
2) Is there anything in the rules that states how this should work?

 

[Arli]

Good question! I would say that you take the strength of the weapon first (S5 in this case) and apply that -2. then take the additional modifier from that, so the total would be at -5.

I could be wrong though. I do not know if it is referenced in the BRB.

 

[The Omen]

Thats the way we ended up playing it, seems wrong to me but I have been know to be wrong before.

 

[Lord Cedric]

On page 11 of the BRB, it says that all army book rules come first over the main rulebook.. so wouldn't the army book's armour -3 replace the BRB's -2 armour save? It doesn't say to add them together.

- Lord Cedric

 

[T`hinker`er]

Perhaps I can help...I played Empire exclusively for about 2 years, although in a prior edition. All gunpowder weapons in WH are supposed to be armor piercing (this used to be explicitly stated). So a Str 5 weapon would be -2 plus and another -1 for being a gun powder propelled projectile. This rule is applied with Skaven Jezzails, Ratling guns, all pistols, Empire handguns, Engineer/outrider weapons and Dwarf Thunderers (off the top of my head....can't think of any other gunpowder weapons in WH that aren't artillery).

So the Organ Gun should be Str 5, -3 AS

Note that they didn't apply this to Mortars, as the projectile explodes rather than "pierces". I think they skipped applying it to cannon, since the strength is so high anyway. In fact, I think with cannon they just wrote "no armor saves" - although not sure if that carried over to the new edition (sometimes things get left out, not because they changed, but because of space limitations and/or the fact that someone thought it redundant or too obvious to state at length, at the time). Anyway, that's the origin of the extra -1 AS modifier.

 

[cyanhawk]

Its like T`hinker`er said. The old rule books used to summarize the total reduction to armor save seperate from the str value. So its str 5 for wounding purposes and -3 to armor saves over all. Now it would be listed as str 5 with armor piercing.

 

[The Omen]

Its like T`hinker`er said. The old rule books used to summarize the total reduction to armor save seperate from the str value. So its str 5 for wounding purposes and -3 to armor saves over all. Now it would be listed as str 5 with armor piercing.

Thats how I see it too, but I can also see how, with the wording of the rules I have been able to find, that the other option can be argued is correct (i.e -5)

I don't deny that I believe that it is not how GW intend it to be played, though my mate disagrees as he says it's the only reason to take a volley gun. What I need however is something in the rules argues my point, which doesn't appear to exist.

Incidentally I've posted this question on other forums too and the general consensus (around 70/30 split) is that it should be -5 under the current rules.

 

[Lord Cedric]

Well, if you are still unsure, then call GW for a rules inquirey at Customer Services: 1-800-394-4263 (USA) or email them with your question at Custserv@games-workshop.com. There are many people who have and do this as well.

- Lord Cedric

 

[cyanhawk]

So I took a look at the empire book and while this is not 100% proof that the armor save is just -3 its pretty good circumstantial evidence.

If you look at the page after the volley gun you will see the hellstorm rocket battery. The stat line for the rocket is displayed in a similar chart as the volley gun. It is str 5 and has -2 listed for armor save. Read the last paragraph on that page and it states that the total save for the rocket battery is -2. Its not -2 and then another -2 for str 5 for a total of -4.

Yes you could make the argument that this is not written in the rules for the volley gun but I look at this paragraph as defining rules as intended for that particular type of chart in general throughout the book.

 

[The Omen]

Well I checked with GW and their guy seemed to think it should be -5 at the moment too. Seems wrong to me, but since I can't find anything concrete and GW themself say -5 then I guess I'm stuck with it.

 

[HoverBoy]

No worries, call the next day, and another GW guy will give you a different answer.

 

[cyanhawk]

No worries, call the next day, and another GW guy will give you a different answer.

sad but 100% true. I called once and asked a LM question and the guys answer was " well I dont play LM so I dont know" I was like hmmm thanks for the FAQ help FAQ hot line. . .