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8th Ed. Army Versus Army Matchups: Rock, Paper, Scissors

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Nov 26, 2021.

  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    This thread has been set up to discuss and explore army versus army matchups. Specifically, which matchups are favourable and which ones are unfavourable.

    Pick an army you play and answer the following:
    • Which opposing army do you feel most confident facing?... and why?
    • Which opposing army do you feel least confident facing?... and why?
    Feel free to tackle multiple armies and/or multiple favourable/unfavourable matchups per army. Discuss and dissect the choices proposed by other members... do you agree or disagree and why?

    If we get enough discussion/analysis going, we can correlate the data into some sort of table detailing all the relative advantageous and disadvantageous matchups for each army.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2021
  2. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Great topic!

    Have to write a quick response so that I get info'ed on any replies and will come back to this in detail.

    Funnily enough most confident to be facing I'd say would be Tomb Kings. A) Not a powerful army and B) I know them inside and out so I could strategize really well against any tactics that my opponent would come at me with.

    Least confident? Warriors of Chaos. A) OP army, B) ridiculous potential lord builds, C) specifically that the Core options are pretty cool to start with and that's what you "have" to pay your Core tax with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Playing as what army? Are those your feelings no matter what army you yourself are fielding (CD, DoC, OK, TK)?

    Meaning...

    I play army X, I most fear army Y and least fear army Z
     
  4. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    I think that playing as ANY army I believe that would be my overall most-feared and least-feared match-ups.

    It pretty much stands for any of the armies that I play. I have done a lot of list building and synergy building while fiddling around with my lists for the various armies and feel pretty confident that I could come up with a good counter for most armies with a good attack strategy as well. It's a shame that I hardly get to play nowadays as I would then be a bit more inspired to work these out in detail.

    It's funny when I think about it though.
     
  5. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I play Chaos Dwarfs !.png ...

    The army I feel most confident facing are the Tomb Kings:
    • Tomb Kings are slow and will be shot to pieces by Magma Cannons, Hellcannons or Deathshrieker Rocket Launchers. Properly positioned (castled in a corner), the TK will struggle to bring down the war machines. TK also have very little armor to protect them during their advance.
    • Tomb Kings have difficulty with armour, Chaos Dwarfs have good armour
    • Chaos Dwarfs are actually faster than the TK (without magic) because of the TK's inability to march. Additionally, the CD have a surprisingly fair number of very quick moving units.
    • The TK have less counters against the K'daai Destroyer than most armies do. Firstly, while they can field Dragonbane Gem and Dragonhelm characters, most of these characters can't be mounted on non-targetable mounts. This means that either the Destroyer can chop down their mount (Sphinx or Chariot) and thus bypass their 2++ ward save, or they're on foot, and can be easily avoided (Destroyer has M9) or Thunderstomped (which isn't flaming and is S7). In addition, should the Destroyer slip a regular wound through their ward, it will be doubled due to their Flammable special rule. Obviously I wouldn't want to dance with a Destroyer of Eternities wielding TK with a 2++, but as he can't be mounted, he has a non-marching M4 against my marching M9. Moving on, the Screaming Skull Catapult is ineffective against the Destroyer as it has flaming attacks, thereby activating the Destroyer's 2++. Ironically, the one thing I'd truly fear with my Destroyer happens to be one of my favourite TK builds... the Khalida-star. The Destroyer would have to be kept well outside of their shooting range until they can be tied up in CC.
    • Overall, I'd feel confident that my CD could easily win the Movement, Shooting and Close Combat phases. The TK would, no doubt, take the magic phase, but at least that can be somewhat partially negated by the Chalice of Blood and Darkness.

    The army I feel least confident facing are the Dwarfs:
    • the Dwarfs have better troop (infantry) quality... and by a fair margin too (they also have the means to take down non-infantry threats)
    • the Dwarfs have both more and better army special rules, while the CD are stuck with the pre-eight edition old variant rules of the Dwarfs
    • and easily the biggest and most significant reason I fear the matchup... the Dwarfs can win the battle of war machines!! While both armies have top tier war machines (like the Magma Cannon of the CD and the Organ Gun of the Dwarfs), the Dwarfs have cannons and the Chaos Dwarfs don't (by which I mean cannons that follow actual cannon rules, so the Hellcannon does not count). Cannons are great at taking out opposing war machines, meaning that eventually, the CD lose a war machine battle of attrition. Cannons also completely nullify the Iron Deamon and are a huge threat to the Destroyer.
     
  6. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Now this is a most interesting topic!

    I’ll have to discuss this in terms of each of the six armies I play, so I begin with my first army, the Dwarfs:
    • As Dwarfs I feel most confident about facing Orcs and Goblins, because as much as I love them, they don’t have many units that can be a real threat to T4, well-armoured Dwarf troops and I automatically gain Hatred towards them. Skaven are a close second because I can neutralise their monsters and war machines with Cannons and again my units Hate them.
    • As Dwarfs the army I feel least confident facing are, you guessed it, Warriors of Chaos, easily the most OP army in the game. To be honest these are one of the top choices for pretty much all the armies I have, with Core troops that are ridiculous (Chaos Warriors should have 1 Attack and Initiative 4 or less, they have no attack besides a weapon strike so 2 attacks makes no thematic sense and big, hulking armoured thugs should not have the same speed and reflexes as Elves) and Lord, Special and Rare choices that are even worse (we’ve seen all the BS that Skullcrushers and Hortennse Lords can achieve as two examples). Specifically from a Dwarf perspective pretty much any other army can be taken down by whittling them down with war machine and missile troop fire before my infantry mop up the remnants. I imagine this would be possible against WoC if their units had a Movement value of 1 or 2, but otherwise it’s only possible to win if you’re really lucky, or the WoC player is really unlucky. Certainly the only time I have won against them is because of luck, when the player blew up 9 of his own 20+-strong Chaos Warrior unit through a Miscast and the rest fled. I suppose this adds a little bit of balance, but you still shouldn’t be able to have an army with units that can massacre their way through a good-sized unit of elite troops without suffering a single casualty. Ogres are second on the list, as I haven’t got the knack of beating Ogres yet, even with Dwarfs who are one of the better-equipped armies for dealing with them. In particular I’ve only just realised how OP Leadbelchers are in 8th, after having a peep at their 6th Edition book where GW had given them pretty fun mechanics that helped to balance them (they had the potential to fire more shots as each one rolled an artillery dice, but also had the risk of misfiring and inflicting D6 Strength 4 hits on their own unit) and were also pretty thematic (given they’re Ogres, they aren’t that high up in the intellectual department, not to mention that the cannons they use were made by other races, so of course there are going to be a few amusing mishaps). I ranked them below WoC because they at least have noticeable weaknesses of low armour and Inititative, meaning at least I get a chance to hit them first or at the same time before I get flattened.
    More analyses to follow!
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021
  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I would have hoped that the best CC units of Warhammer tournament results might have changed your opinion on this a little. They finished in second last place, with only the Arachnarok faring worse. They were well below all the other infantry units in the tourney (Witch elves, Executioners, Savage Orc Big'uns, Black Guard, Hammers and White Lions). Would you suggest nerfing all of these units as well?
     
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  8. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    For me, each of the units you cited have a counter or counters that can be employed by a fair amount of armies (except White Lions which are up there with the Chaos Warriors in my opinion) making them less formidable. The Chaos Warriors have a normal movement, so fine, but high WS, high'ish strength and toughness, high initiative, high attacks and high leadership which means there is almost zero weaknesses to exploit from an overall battle perspective. Even against ASF enemies, their high initiative means they will most likely negate the re-rolls to hit.

    They are highly versatile because they can have high armour (3+ with Chaos Armour and Shields), they can have even MORE attacks by giving them MoK and additional hand weapons (4 attacks?!?!), you can give them a -1 to hit with MoN or a ward save with MoT.

    Your CC units tournament was a fantastic reference tool for what happens when two units clash and their rules interacting with each other.

    I just think that, everything considered, they are the best Core option out there.
     
  9. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    You guys are missing their big weakness... points cost! If Chaos Warriors cost what Witch Elves or Savage Orcs cost, they would be obscene. However, of all the units I named, a properly tooled up Chaos Warrior is the most expensive points-wise (and by a fair margin at that).

    So while the Chaos Warriors appear to have no weaknesses in terms of attacks, initiative, strength or toughness, they will almost always be outnumbered by an infantry unit of equal points cost. So their deficit comes by way of a unit's total wound count. Having more models/wounds in a unit can very quickly offset profile deficiencies in terms of attacks or toughness or armor...
    • Witch Elves have no armour and T3, but they have more wounds to soak up damage (and they have ASF to strike before their opponents)
    • Executioners only have 1 attack each, but they have more models in the unit with which to attack with (this is doubly true for White Lions who get to attack in an extra rank)
    • Savage Orc Big'uns have much poorer initiative than Chaos Warriors and typically strike after their opponents, but they have the models to soak up the incoming wounds and retain combat effectiveness for when it is their turn to strike
    We saw it time and time again in the tournament, Chaos Warriors simply did not have enough models to hang in the fight. They too quickly lost combat efficiency once casualties starting rolling in and then broke from combat as they didn't even have Steadfast to fall back on.

    Also, if the Dark Elves units taught us anything, special rules like ASF, poison and murderous prowess can win you the day despite having weak stats.

    At the end of the day, everything comes down to how good something is in relation to their points cost. Make a K'daai Destroyer 700 points and it is a steaming pile of garbage. Make a lowly TK Skeleton Warrior 1 point a model, and Tomb Kings instantly become a broken army. Chaos Warriors are very powerful, but they pay a very heavy price for that power.

    Not in most cases. The most abundant ASF in the game of Warhammer is found among the Elves, who usually sport at least initiative 5. They get their re-rolls from their ASF as long as their initiative is equal to or better than that of their opponent. So Chaos Warriors can't negate the re-rolls to hit from your typical pointy eared troublemakers.

    All great options, but more points, more points, more points! Our tournament contestant Nurgle CWs with Halberds come in at a mighty 18 points a model. In contrast, a Witch Elf tips the scales at only 11 points. Beasts of Nurgle only cost 15 points per wound!


    I play Warriors of Chaos and I used to spend a fair bit of time over at the Chamber of the Everchosen (which is why I had a couple years long hiatus here), and I can tell you that Chaos Warriors are not usually the keys to our victory. The WoC army is extremely strong, but it is in elements like DPs, Hortennse Lords, Skullcrushers, Chimeras, Trolls, (and perhaps even things like Hellcannons or Gorebeast chariots) that victory is ultimately achieved.

    There were quite a few players who deliberately steered clear from fielding Chaos Warriors because of their belief that they simply weren't that great for their points. As a result there were chariot heavy lists with no Warriors in them. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but I'd very quickly trade them out for Witch Elves or Executioners if I could!

    Also, you don't hear as many exploits from Chaos Warrior Deathstars as you do from something like the infamous Gut-star.
     
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  10. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Hmmmm.... all very interesting points.

    I believe that you should start a WoC tactica and also show up the weaknesses and what strategies would work against them. I'd be fascinated with that.
     
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  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    We don't betray our own! ;)
     
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  12. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    maxresdefault.jpg

    ;)
     
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  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    That's fair enough... but only for personal petty gain (as it should be).
     
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  14. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I play Warriors of Chaos...

    The army I feel most confident facing are the Tomb Kings, but that's been done before so let's go with Bretonnia:
    • the army is too reliant on getting the charge and WoC have multiple extremely dangerous flying models (DP, Hortennse Lords, Chimera) that can beat them to the punch. Without their charge bonuses, I don't see those Bretonnian Knights posing any sort of threat.
    • Bretonnia rely heavily on their armour saves and WoC have lots of ways to mitigate armour. High strength models/units, troll vomit, lore of metal, etc.
    • Monstrous Cavalry (Skullcrushers) outclass regular cavalry
    • the one thing that can be scary (depending on the WoC build), is the Virtue of Heroism (HKB) Bretonnian character, although the Hortennese lord is extremely well equipped to handle him

    The army I feel least confident facing are the Dark Elves:
    • Dark Elves have better troop quality, which is a problem for a close combat focused army such as the WoC! Between the Witch Elves and the Executioners, point for point, the Dark Elves can beat down just about any non-character WoC unit.
    • The Dark Elves main weakness is incoming ranged damage, which is something that is nearly impossible to exploit with WoC. As strictly a ranged threat (i.e. excluding it's CC potential), the Hellcannon is too expensive and any other shooting we have is extremely minimal. That forces the WoC to rely on ranged magic, which is fickle at best. Armies such as the Chaos Dwarfs, Dwarfs and Wood Elves are much better equipped to capitalize on the main weakness of the Dark Elves. In fact, I've often heard that the Wood Elves were meta-shifting in the sense that they hard countered DE and HE builds that typically tormented WoC generals.
    • More in general, Doomfire Warlocks are auto-includes for a reason and Lore of Dark Magic is extremely solid
     
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Nobody else?

    @Killer Angel
    @Imrahil (and don't say that you don't have enough experience... instead add to the fun!)
    @Knoffles
    @Scalenex
     
  16. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    My friend who I play most of my 8th edition games with collects WoC, Dwarves, and Orcs and Goblins. Before my local met died, those three armies were quite popular so I played them from other people.

    I played six or seven games against Orcs and Goblins and never lost, one or two of them were very close, but I am still undefeated.

    I even played two or three games deliberately trying out unorthodox army builds and I still won.

    I played around fourteen games against Warriors of Chaos and won twice and one of these victories was a campaign battle that was titled in my favor.

    [​IMG]
    That is essentially me against Warriors of Chaos.

    I'm sure if I played against Orcs and Goblins more, I doubt I'd be able to beat them 16 times in a row.

    But never the less, if I expect to against WoC I am bringing my A-game going over every point expenditure on my army list with a fine tooth comb. If I know I am playing against Orcs and Goblins, I will make a casual list and try out some unit types, magical item combos, and lores of magic I would normally not bother with.

    Most other armies, I've only played once or twice. I never actually had the pleasure of playing against Dark Elves or Beasts of Chaos. I had friend who almost started Dark Elves but quit early :(
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2021
  17. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    I do sound like a broken record, don't I?

    The fact is I have never ever played one game of WHFB, to add insult to injury, I have never even seen someone play a battle. Nonetheless, so there can not be said that Imrahil did not answered the call, here we go:
    • Which opposing army do you feel most confident facing?... and why?
    • Which opposing army do you feel least confident facing?... and why?
    My take on "feel confident facing" is not based on tactics whatsoever just on what I think I would feel when seeing them on the opposite side of the table, regardless of what is on my side of the table ;)

    I think I feel most confident facing Orcs and Goblins. Mostly because they look great and are always in for some good smashing.

    I think I feel least confident facing Chaos Deamons. I do not like their esthetics and therefore might face a very awkward game.

    I hope this was to your satisfaction @NIGHTBRINGER :p

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  18. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    GW surely should have realised something was amiss when one army is so good that even experienced players can beat it very rarely and require a good amount of skill and/or luck to do so, while another is so weak that even an inexperienced player can beat them without too much fuss.

    Though to be fair, I didn't realise that ASF granted you the re-roll if your initiative is the same as that of your opponent as well. At least that means I have a bit more of a chance against them with one of my armies (which happens to be in top-tier alongside them) even if the rest will still struggle... :rolleyes:

    Longbeard-style grumbling aside, might as well continue with this thread.

    I will be playing Beastmen when I get chance to build a decent-sized army up...

    The army I feel most confident facing is Empire. My infantry has the same Initiative as theirs and are distinctly better quality (even Ungors have the Primal Fury rule which, when it works - which will be roughly 50% of the time - will give them an edge in melee against the Empire's sword-fodder infantry), meaning close combat will usually go my way. Sure, shooting is a threat, but as Empire are a jack-of-all-trades army they'll be hard-pressed to counter my magical dominance and either some magic missiles or some Toughness-boosting from Wyssan's will do the trick. Ambushing units should be able to (eventually) reach and take apart any war machines unless I roll a 1, and even if they get shot by them before they can do so, it directs a turn's worth of fire away from my more important units. My characters are easily superior, meaning I shouldn't need to worry about any challenges and when not in challenges they'll boost the performance of my units even further and ensure any combats turn into a messy riot.The only units of any concern are Knights of any form, but they crop up less than in Bretonnian armies and I have some tools that can deal with them (Totem of Rust, Traitor-Kin, Minotaurs if necessary). The icing on the cake? Because of the 7th Edition fluff-nerf that made the Beastmen only a localised threat to specifically humans, they get a few small but useful bonuses specifically against human armies.

    The army I feel least confident fighting is Dark Elves. During my time at University I knew a chap who was clearly a 'that guy' player, who endlessly bragged about his two armies, and whenever he wasn't boasting how he could supposedly own Tyranid armies with his Dark Eldar, he was boasting how he could own Beastmen with his Dark Elves. Upon closer inspection of the army, I can see why they are able to inflate his ego to such bastard-esque levels. The army is fast-moving, Witch Elves and Black Guard abuse ASF to horrendous levels, Executioners would still strike before me and Darkshards will be extremely annoying to an army that eschews armour almost entirely. The only chance I've got against these goons is to try and magic missile them to death to get past their crap armour (and would be one of the times where I would use Lore of Death and pray to the Gods that I would get Purple Sun). Warriors of Chaos are a close second, because while they are slower and don't have ASF they are a lot better-armoured and still get to strike before me, and there's the added threat of their characters being a sizeable threat to my own.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2021
  19. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    For now i won't go into details but by answering at least i will receive notifiations of updates. :D

    What i play: Lizardmen (i'm more used to them rather than TK or Dwarfs)

    most confident: Ogre Kingdom. not because i find them to be an easy opponent, but i've played against them a fair number of battles, so i'm not going to face something unexpected or unknown.

    less confident: High Elves. i think it's the only army i've never faced, so (apart the horror stories involving the banner of the world dragon), i know very little and so i wouldn't know how to handle them.
     
  20. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Are Hellcannons overpowered? Yes

    Would they be overpowered if they cost 1000 points a model? No, they would crap. That means the ideal points alottment is somwhere between 200 and 1000 points.

    Are jungle swarms underpowered? Yes

    Would they be under powered if they cost five points a base? No, they would be crazy OP. That means the ideal points value is between 5 and 35 points.

    I wish GW watched the meta tournaments and adjusted points up or down so competitive lists didn't all look the same.
     

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