8th Ed. Bastiladons Beam and General Bound Spells

[archangelvk]

Ive found that the Bastiladons beam as well as other bound spells kind of useless. Let me explain. The bastiladons power level of 3 for what it does is amazing. So generally we throw one dice at it on a average winds of magic phase (say we get 7-8 dice) Lets say we are successful and get it off. When dispelling a bound spell, the opponents wizard not only throws the same number of dice that we did but ALSO gets to add his wizard level to whatever his dispel roll. So IF we roll a 3 or 4, a lvl 2 mage can feel safe just throwing one dice at it knowing that he will dispel it. If he uses a lvl 4 mage he is almost certain he can dispel it with one dice. If we roll a 5 or 6 a lvl 2 MIGHT throw two dice at it but a lvl 4 will still really only need to throw one. So whats the hype about this beam? I dont see it going off EVER.... maybe once per game. YOure basically trading one power dice for one of your opponents dispel dice. This can be done casting any other spell.


Am I missing something?

 

[dokushin]

Indeed you are

Assuming you're leading off with the bound spells, your opponent won't dare throw one die with his LV4, because (just like with casting) a roll of 1 or 2 always fails, breaking the wizard's concentration and preventing him from making any more dispel attempts (or using scrolls, etc.)

So, if they brought a second caster -- most do -- they can probably afford to be a little more pushy with trying the one die, as it doesn't hurt as bad if he breaks concentration -- except that the dispel scroll is usually on the L2 and failing a dispel roll will take it off the table for the round, and they'll have to be a little more conservative with the L4 as they won't have backup.

But let's ignore that and assume they make all the dispel rolls, and they're successful in dispelling your casts. The end result is you lost a power die, and they lost a dispel die. That's great; if you keep that up, eventually you will have "some" power dice, and they will have "none" dispel dice, and you didn't even have to waste a good spell drawing out those dispel dice!

Even if they don't ever fail any dispel rolls and dispel every solar engine, that can turn a 7PD/4DD phase into a 5PD/1DD phase, which is a lot better for getting spells off. ("Well that would have happened anyway!" Yes, but you would have had to cast a good spell and given them the opportunity to dispel it, instead of dispelling some random bound spell.)

But it's even better, because they aren't always going to risk a 33% chance of shutting down a wizard for that phase, so if they want to dispel it, they'll throw 2DD, which is pretty amazing.

So why don't they let it go off? See, on the offense, you're seeing the bad results, the d3 S3 (lol) or the d4 S4, but your opponent can't afford to think like that. There's a 50% chance that the spell will land at least 2d6 S5, which is a pretty nice hit and can absolutely wreck a lot of units. No one is going to risk that without thinking about it.

The end result is you either a) shut down a caster, b) waste their dispel die, or c) get off a really powerful nuke, or maybe even some combination of the three.

Now, as a caveat, this kind of trickle-cast strategy works best when you have cheap spells to follow up with to take advantage of the reduced PD vs. no DD. I've had better luck running solar engines with wandering deliberations, and not so much with high magic. Still experimenting, though!

 

[Gor-rok]

Excellent post! Concise explanation; gave me a lot to think about. Thanks!

 

[Rettile]

also this is an innate bound spell, so if you aren't going to cast something with your slann (broken concentration, no slann at all...) you can 6 dice it and it doesn't matter if you miscast

 

[archangelvk]

Indeed you are

Assuming you're leading off with the bound spells, your opponent won't dare throw one die with his LV4, because (just like with casting) a roll of 1 or 2 always fails, breaking the wizard's concentration and preventing him from making any more dispel attempts (or using scrolls, etc.)

I dont believe the rule book states that a roll of 1-2 for dispelling makes you lose concentration. That is only for casting. That means that depending on what you roll and what level wizard the enemy is fielding 95% of the time the opponent will throw just as many dice as you do.

Going back to making the opponent wasting his dispel dice, for 150 pts, I could field ANOTHER lvl 2 skink mage with beast lore and draw out 3 dice after casting Wyassans (spelling?) as he will do the same.

I just dont feel that spending 150 pts to draw out one dispel dice is worth it. As a matter of fact, I dont think ANY bound spell is worth it.

 

[archangelvk]

also this is an innate bound spell, so if you aren't going to cast something with your slann (broken concentration, no slann at all...) you can 6 dice it and it doesn't matter if you miscast

Why would you not cast anything else with your slann ?

In addition if you DO miscast youre right that the mage wont get hurt but if you read the rules in the BRB, an irresistible force on a innate bound spell means that you can NEVER use that bound spell again for the rest of the game.

WOrth throwing 6 dice at it ? not really

 

[Lizardmatt]

also this is an innate bound spell, so if you aren't going to cast something with your slann (broken concentration, no slann at all...) you can 6 dice it and it doesn't matter if you miscast

Why would you not cast anything else with your slann ?

In addition if you DO miscast youre right that the mage wont get hurt but if you read the rules in the BRB, an irresistible force on a innate bound spell means that you can NEVER use that bound spell again for the rest of the game.

WOrth throwing 6 dice at it ? not really

Read up in "Innate Bound". Miscast = spell goes off, and nothing bad happens.

-Matt

 

[Rettile]

^ +1

in addition i was talking about situations in which the slann cannot cast anything, for example if he broke concentration or if you're running slannless. For example, you go with 2 priests wih lore of beast and you roll 12 PD. 3 dice wyssan, 3 dice wyssan, 6 dice laser. Oh, double 6. AND I DON'T GIVE A F*** MUAHAHAHAH!!

 

[Gor-rok]

I dont believe the rule book states that a roll of 1-2 for dispelling makes you lose concentration. That is only for casting. That means that depending on what you roll and what level wizard the enemy is fielding 95% of the time the opponent will throw just as many dice as you do.

You do lose concentration, regardless of modifiers, on a natural dispel roll of 1-2. Big rule book book page 35, under "Dispel Value".

Beam of Chotec is one of the few things I have come to love about the new book. For one power die, it has the potential to kill a chimera or chariot or something, and no other spell we have access to can do that without serious risk of our Slann losing concentration. Yes, it is just as likely to do nothing... Can your opponent afford to take the chance? Worst case, you're down a single die but your wizards can keep casting. Best case, you draw a couple dispel dice, OR you blow something up. Sounds good to me!

 

[Scalenex]

To add my two cents. We covered working in bound spells with a 8 spell Slann and working them in a Slann-less list.

If you take a BRB Slann, you only get four spells, you might only like three of them. Now you have power dice to spare so why not put some towards bound spells? The opportunity cost of doing so for us seems low.

 

[T`hinker`er]

Doesn't work as well against Dwarfs, as they get a 2+ army wide dispel, not tied to any wizard, and a roll of 1 or 2 will not break the army's concentration for purposes of further dispel attempts.

 

[archangelvk]

Ah yes sorry I do see that a natural roll of a 1 or 2 is an automatic fail to dispel. My fault. But throwing 6 dice at an innate bound spell causes it not to work for that phase. Okay I can still see that if we throw one dice at it and get it off that the opponent MIGHT think about using two dice on dispelling it. But if I were playing against lizardmen id still just try with one dice meaning still trading one dice for one dice.

 

[Rhodium]

Ah yes sorry I do see that a natural roll of a 1 or 2 is an automatic fail to dispel. My fault. But throwing 6 dice at an innate bound spell causes it not to work for that phase.

BRB page 37
No it doesn't, throwing 6 dice will cast it
If you get two 6's it is cast irresistibly and no dispell can be attempted
Then the model cannot cast any more spells that phase (a solar engine has none so this is a moot point)
Nothing bad happens to a bastilidon when it double 6's

Okay I can still see that if we throw one dice at it and get it off that the opponent MIGHT think about using two dice on dispelling it. But if I were playing against lizardmen id still just try with one dice meaning still trading one dice for one dice.

Tbh you are the minority then, this is not what I have experienced in most games,
Even if you are risky like that, one day you will throw one dice with your level four, roll a 1, the laser will go off cause 2D6 str6 hits and destroy a unit then without your level 4 to dispell, my slann will cast whatever he wants and the game will change in my favour
Or
You throw one dice with your scroll caddy, roll a 1, the laser destroys something, then I cast a very important spell with my slann, don't roll double 6 but roll a very large casting value, even with your level 4 you don't think you can get it with your dice, however your scroll caddy failed to dispell so you can't use your dispell scroll, I get the spell off and change the game in my favour.

It's a quite a big risk to try and one dice a bound spell unless you only use your army wide dispell rather than using a wizard and have a straight up dice off

 

[archangelvk]

Ah yes sorry I do see that a natural roll of a 1 or 2 is an automatic fail to dispel. My fault. But throwing 6 dice at an innate bound spell causes it not to work for that phase.

BRB page 37
No it doesn't, throwing 6 dice will cast it
If you get two 6's it is cast irresistibly and no dispell can be attempted
Then the model cannot cast any more spells that phase (a solar engine has none so this is a moot point)
Nothing bad happens to a bastilidon when it double 6's

Okay I can still see that if we throw one dice at it and get it off that the opponent MIGHT think about using two dice on dispelling it. But if I were playing against lizardmen id still just try with one dice meaning still trading one dice for one dice.

Tbh you are the minority then, this is not what I have experienced in most games,
Even if you are risky like that, one day you will throw one dice with your level four, roll a 1, the laser will go off cause 2D6 str6 hits and destroy a unit then without your level 4 to dispell, my slann will cast whatever he wants and the game will change in my favour
Or
You throw one dice with your scroll caddy, roll a 1, the laser destroys something, then I cast a very important spell with my slann, don't roll double 6 but roll a very large casting value, even with your level 4 you don't think you can get it with your dice, however your scroll caddy failed to dispell so you can't use your dispell scroll, I get the spell off and change the game in my favour.

It's a quite a big risk to try and one dice a bound spell unless you only use your army wide dispell rather than using a wizard and have a straight up dice off

But arent you assuming that, that opponent fails AND I roll a 6 for that spell. What if I get a 1-5 which is way more likely.

 

[Haemoglobin]

Ive tried using the bastiladon with laser and im pretty sure it will be in my list for most of my games. It did really well killing about 15 white lions in two turns. My opponent didt bother dispelling because "it might suck" . Sure he had more dispel dice to dispell my slanns spells but in the end my goal ws met: get rid of as many white lions as possible before thzy hit my lines
Its still a 50 50 chance of 2d6 S5 hits. Thats just plain nasty for chaff and elite infantry
Hell even MC will feel the pain.

 

[Kimiko]

Hello all, can you tell me please in the BRB where it says you can't use a scroll when you fail a dispel roll? First time i hear of that! Thanks and keep the good discussion

 

[Gor-rok]

It's on page 5 of the FAQ on Games Workshop's web site, under Magic.

Basically, there can never be more than one attempt to dispel something per magic phase, and if a wizard has failed a dispel that phase he can't use his scroll on something else.

 

[Rhodium]

But arent you assuming that, that opponent fails AND I roll a 6 for that spell. What if I get a 1-5 which is way more likely.

Yes, I have illustrating a point using a worst case scenario, which is why you won't find many people risking it with one dice because there is a chance that can happen.

Even so, a failed dispell will occur 33% of the time, there is then a 50% chance of 2d6 str5(6) flaming magical hits occurring, that isn't something to be sniffed at,it will readily do serious damage to various units and monsters,

 

[Caneghem]

But arent you assuming that, that opponent fails AND I roll a 6 for that spell. What if I get a 1-5 which is way more likely.

Yes, I have illustrating a point using a worst case scenario, which is why you won't find many people risking it with one dice because there is a chance that can happen.

Even so, a failed dispell will occur 33% of the time, there is then a 50% chance of 2d6 str5(6) flaming magical hits occurring, that isn't something to be sniffed at,it will readily do serious damage to various units and monsters,

That sums it up nicely. The beauty is your opponent must dispel this because he is trying to minimize risk, and he has to assume the worst will happen.

 

[Rhodium]

But arent you assuming that, that opponent fails AND I roll a 6 for that spell. What if I get a 1-5 which is way more likely.

Yes, I have illustrating a point using a worst case scenario, which is why you won't find many people risking it with one dice because there is a chance that can happen.

Even so, a failed dispell will occur 33% of the time, there is then a 50% chance of 2d6 str5(6) flaming magical hits occurring, that isn't something to be sniffed at,it will readily do serious damage to various units and monsters,

That sums it up nicely. The beauty is your opponent must dispel this because he is trying to minimize risk, and he has to assume the worst will happen.

Exactly, that's why the old infernal gateway was feared so much, sure there was only an 8.3% chance of getting a 11 or 12, but still 1 in every 12 times you will lose your whole unit no questions asked, therefore you have to try to dispell it at all costs, I have lost 24 skinks 3 Krox and a slann BSB on turn 6 in a tournament to an old gateway.

And although not in the same ballpark, I feel a bastilidon has the ability to draw out extra dispell dice from the other side, and if not, there's a 1/3 chance of taking ascendancy in that magic phase, which is even more desirable than getting the laser to go off.