Discussion Can Lizardmen go bad?

[Scalenex]

Ogres/Chaos Ogres
Humans/Warriors of Chaos
Elves/Dark Elves
Dwarfs/Chaos Dwarfs
Halfling/they are already bad, read the warning told by a Wood Elf to her child in the 6th edition BRB

And of course all of the preceding races can be greedy, petty, lustful and otherwise be jerks WITHOUT falling to dark powers.

Do Lizardmen have the capacity to fall to Dark Powers? Do they even have the ability to cause harm through being merely selfish? I doubt a structured society like the LM would allow a Skink, Saurus, or Kroxigor to fall to Dark Powers before being slain or exiled well before that. A Slann might be well entrenched enough to fall all the way before being taken down, but I think they'd be a self correcting problem. Their minds are so complex and duty is so paramount to them that they'd probably go mad long before they became a willing tool of the Enemy. I looked at the Seven Deadly Sins and listed them in ascending order oh how I think they'd apply to the First Children of the Old Ones.

Lust: They have exogenic births so they are physically incapable of it

Greed: The fluff pieces by GW seem to paint materialism as an alien concept to them, they don't even have a currency.

Gluttony: Literal gluttony is hard to picture. Cold Blooded creatures don't eat as much as warm blooded creatures (I'm talking real world ones anyway). It's not unheard of for some predators to eat A LOT and then go without a while. I think the concept of gluttony would be alien to LM as well.

Sloth: Sloth is tricky. Can one of the First be lazy? Temperature extremes can make them lethargic. I think they have a limited capacity for sloth. A lot of things are beneath a Slann's notice but if a Slann doesn't want to do something he might say it's beneath his notice and not do it when he should (well a half day break to lead a critical battle really interrupt a pondering one has been working on for four years?). I can see a Skink trying to foist a dangerous duty on another if they think they can get away with it. I can imagine a Saurus trying to get another Saurus to do something boring if it means that Saurus can do something exiciting.

Envy: This is possible but it seems unlikely. LM have a stratified society that runs pretty efficiently. Does this mean LM are automatically content with their roles. I would put forth that they are USUALLY content. A Skink isn't going to be jealous of Slann and a Saurus isn't going to be jealous of Kroxigor's strength. I think you'd have some envy amongst groups. A Saurus might envy the other Saurus who killed more things (it was all luck! I'm better) and Skinks may resent being bossed around by higher ranking Skinks. Younger Slann probably don't always agree with the directives of their superiors who probably seem out of it and older Slann may envy their younger siblings vitality (youth is wasted on the young and all that).

Wrath: LM have battle rages so they would have the capacity for wrath. It's conceivable that they could lose their temper on each other. It's possible they might just get a taste for killing rather than just killing when their is need (like a sapient Ripperdactyl). It's also conceivable that their anger at the lesser Children of the Old Ones could lead them to overlook the positive contributions they make. This ties directly to the next sin.

Pride: If any of the First can fall all the way, pride will pave the way. All Lizardmen from the lowliest Kroxigor to the mightiest Slann know that they are better than all the other races of the Old World. They alone kept to the Will of the Old Ones. Coupled to that certainty is the fact that not even the wisest Slann fully understand the Will of the Old Ones. In the real world when someone says "God talked to me" they usually mean "God told me that all the ideas I had already were right." I can picture leaders from Skink Chiefs all the way to Slann doing horrible things all while utterly certain that they are fulfilling the Will of the Old Ones. The ends justify the means right?

What are your thoughts on bad Lizardmen?

 

[Fhanados]

I toyed with the idea of Chaos Lizardmen for a long time before our new models for 7th edition were released. Upon seeing the new TG and Stegadon I immediately abandoned my Chaos Lizards in favour of more traditional Lizardmen.

I think the way you’ve outlined how the traditional “7 deadly sins” apply to Lizardmen is better written than anything I would have come up with, so kudos for that! I think I’ll try to tackle this on a species-by-species basis

Kroxigor: I’ll start with these guys because they’re the easiest. Kroxigor are simple minded, too much so to become tempted by Chaos. They follow orders without question and will perform a task until it’s completed, they’re told to stop, or they die. In this sense, a Kroxigor could be led astray fairly easily, perhaps by a spawn kin or a ranking Skink or Saurus issuing a direct order. While the Kroxigor themselves aren’t corrupted, their obedience, loyalty and kinship to other Lizardmen could theoretically be pretty easily exploited.

Saurus: Saurus are a bit tricky. GW seems to like to portray them as some sort of living robot – automations designed to follow orders and pre-programmed for the tasks they’re built for with very little personality or free will of their own. I don’t like this.
I think that Saurus come pre-loaded with the software for battle, and engineered with a mindset that cements their duty and loyalty to the Old Ones, but they’re still individuals. Saurus do what is necessary of them, whether they like it or not. They accept this as their destiny, their very reason to exist.
I can see them seeking personal glory, but not for the same reasons as human-type races. A Saurus would seek glory or attempt magnificent tasks to prove his worth to the Old Ones. I’m finding it difficult to put words to thoughts here, but it’s essentially a selfless deed in his eyes.
I believe a Saurus would not consciously fall to Chaos, and it would be very difficult for the forces of Chaos to snake their way into the complex engineered mind of a Saurus warrior, and frankly the effort would most likely be a waste. Saurus do little more than fight. They are revered and honoured as sacred warriors, but in the end they’re just soldiers and labourers. Tainting a handful of Saurus would achieve nothing in the greater scheme of things, only the oldest and most experienced Saurus have any real authority over other Lizardmen, and even then it’s mostly only on the subject of combat

I had more thoughts on the subject but got hammered with work before I could jot anything down. I’ll have to come back to this when it doesn't feel like my brains are leaking out of my eyes…

 

[Anton_S]

I don't think human concepts of sin would apply to Lizardmen.

Their weakness is blind obedience, and reliance on magic in a world where magic is very much connected to Chaos. Read up on Lord Zhul (under The Ancient Enemy, pg. 15).

While Slann are powerful, they are clearly not immune to the influence of Chaos and should an especially powerful Daemon manage to possess a Mage-Priest, it would be a small matter for it to corrupt a number of lesser Lizardmen. Enough to build a themed army, anyway.

 

[Axolotyl]

The slan themselves are finding that their contemplations are being marred by the taint of chaos, they find it harder to perceive the future and divine their destiny. Often a slan will enter a torpor state to dwell on the plans of the old ones simply to be confused and lulled by chaos, hence the longer states of torpor. It has fallen to lord Mazadumandi to call the slan back from their contemplations and awaken them to their purpose.

As per the seven deadly sins:

Lust can be more than just physical, lust can be to covet and desire something, so why not lust after the realisation of their masters plan, why not desire the supremacy and dominion that the lizardmen once had.....

Sloth, as previously mentioned the slan are already falling prey to bouts of indecision and non response...

Greed, the lizard men do want, they covet scraps of knowledge and lore, going to great lengths to obtain knowledge of their past and masters. For a race of beings that are dwindling and becoming more and more pressured, this need will become more urgent. Further more, as their numbers dwindle, their will be less communal knowledge, and less communal will to resist this temptation, and as a psychically attuned race, when one falls the others will follow....

Wrath, all lizardmen can fall prey to this, consider Sotek, "- terrible and bloody god who feasts pon the souls of those shaven sacrificed to him" it may as well shout "kill maim burn" this does namely affect skinks, but have not the slan accepted Sotek as a god already?

Pride I can't see this being too much of an issue, except in those more pro active slan, those who believe that rptheir actions are more valued above those of their brethren who still ponder on the meaning of everything.

Gluttony, in a non traditional sense this may be an undoing. As things are, the lizardmen engage in a war feed and rest. As its been pointed out lizard men are pokilothermic, or cold blooded, so when they gorge, like in a battle, their body will soon enter a state of torpor to digest their meal, the bigger the meal the longer it can take! For instance an African rock python can consume a whole gazelle, to do this it actually tears its body to enlarge itself so that meal can fit, then, on top of that it can take a MONTH to digest it so that the snake can carry out its business, and then the snake can last over a year before feeding again. Now the issue with this is that if disturbed, it will be forced to throw up the meal, so the reptile has done itself damage and had no gain, so when chaos is rising strong its foreseeable that the lizardmen will be marching on very empty stomachs, the second issue is that their instincts will force them to feed whenever possible, so they could end up repeating this process again!

However, a rare ray of sunshine....

The chas gods are formed from the empyrean, which is a reflection of the emotions of the inhabitants of the realms, namely the mammalian lesser races, so the chaos gods namely understand how to tempt and interact with those mortals. Lizardmen will have *some* sense of emotion as do modern reptiles, but to be so slim and focused as to be negligibe. It is the slan and prominent skinks which will be the target, if at all!

Soap box done

 

[Lizardmatt]

If you read about the Sotek, you see that the slaan were pretty unhappy about the slaughter that the skinks were undertaking to gain favor of their new god.
Skinks found a long forgotten plaque and kind of went off on their own without direction from the slaan.

It wouldn't be hard to think that a cleaver daemon could make a new plaque that skinks could find and start another cult.

In the Sotek cult, the skinks were running the show, and the saurus were following the skinks orders.

-Matt

 

[VampTeddy]

I'm already concerned that Sotek might not truly be what he seems, even though i am more curious as to who Khaine truly is.

It seems to me Khorne has a lot of could be aliases.

And on the subject of being incorruptible, just consider, that if one really did fall, wouldn't it's normal refrain from sins, and what could be perceived as sins make it so much more of a danger?

Usually when things go bad, they really go bad if the concept is usually lost, or hidden well away in the, if you've kept your demons at bay for 5000 years, won't you just have so much more to release?

That said some Slann have traveled, or lived in a time where travel, between the stars was a possibility, and hence must have seen the immaterium, and the threat of chaos, most have probably seen the polar warp gates back when they worked, and hence know full well the threat and allure of chaos, and have probably been meticulously trained to avoid it's lure.

I don't believe it's a lack of emotion, but more a notion of a higher knowledge, and a pursuit of the higher purpose, and the search for a greater goal, and vengeance for the loss of their masters that drives the Lizardmen towards incorruptibility. After all, one should not forget who ruined the plans of the old ones, and set us back several millenia, even though all we strive for is the greater good. If the younger races would just realize what's best, and live in their alloted lands, or line up for eviction things would be so much greater... Cleansing the wayward of the younger races isn't something i particularly enjoy, but something i have to do, because, that's just how it is, and there's no questioning this, because the Slann have interpreted the will of the old ones thusly!


On another note i don't see why the LM aren't Neutral in therms of the book... yes our archenemies lie in the evil races, but our unhesitant behaviour towards killing our "allies" should they do wrong has me thinking we, at the very least, are one of the more neutral "good" armies.

 

[Spiney Norman]

I think that if you wanted to corrupt Lizardmen you'd probably have to do it in the spawning pool, rather than tempt them to join the Dark powers in later life. It seems that Lizardmen are all pretty much spawned to order with a strictly controlled psyche. Certainly Saurus and Kroxigor seem almost incapable of independent thought which would make them much harder to corrupt.

I see, to remember some fluff about the Skaven plagues that infested chaqua as corrupting their spawning pools so that the creatures emerged from them were badly mutated and didn't live very long as a result. I think that if a less extreme corruption were introduced into the spawning pool then you could end up with something badly mutated from the standard template, but nevertheless survivable.

 

[Scalenex]

I seem to remember some fluff about the Skaven plagues that infested chaqua as corrupting their spawning pools so that the creatures emerged from them were badly mutated and didn't live very long as a result. I think that if a less extreme corruption were introduced into the spawning pool then you could end up with something badly mutated from the standard template, but nevertheless survivable.

I did something similar in my fluff pieces where a vampire suffused a tainted spawning pool so that it could birth Lizardmen ghouls.

None of the twisted spawnings in the wake of the Skaven poisoning of the city had survived more than a few hours. Until the vampire lord Renliss learned of the pools and changed things. He found if he infused his own dark power in the pools around the time of their spawning that some of the creatures that emerged would take on a state halfway between life and true undeath. He named these unique Lizardmen ghouls the Quatlixa (Kwa-TLEE-shah), which translates into the lesser Lizardmen tongue as “blood servants of vengeance” (if you overlook Renliss shaky grasp of Saurian grammar).

While I'm sure the Quatlixa will make an interesting conversion project for my Lustrian undead some day, I think free-willed fallen Lizardmen would make more interesting fiction. If Lizardmen are mindlessly obedient, not only would they lack the capacity for sin, they'd lack the capacity for emotions, insecurities, and individual personalities. That's why in my fluff pieces, my Lizardmen are not robots. I figure the average Lizardmen is like a very pious/loyal human but still with some capacity for other drives in addition to duty.

 

[spawning of Bob]

I must have read it in a White Dwarf. They interviewed the author of a 40K book who explained how you could get trapped by the attributes of a race.

Space Marines always obey their orders. Space Marines feel no fear.

No story, no character development, no internecine conflict.

To get some interest into the characters, and to add doubt in themselves / conflict with their brothers, these can be twisted into "Space marines always obey, but sometimes a situation calls for on the spot decisions or sometimes their orders are ambiguous" or "Space marines feel no fear, except for a fear of failure or not meeting expectations"

I completely avoided the species trap in my story by coming up with a plausible (!?) reason for my characters to break all the rules.

If you want to stay within the rules have a go at listing all of the attributes of each of the LM subtypes (focused on higher rather than earthly matters / following ambiguous plaques or commands / robotic obedience + predatory fighter attribute etc)

Each attribute will have one or several weaknesses attached. It is fortunate that the LM as a whole are complementary fluffwise and on the table top.

As for writing, we do see a lot of fluff authors here come up with a fabulous origin story (Axolotl's, Dreadgrass's and Sealterbloind's are recent good examples - and I want more from all of you) and come up with a terrific character with a mighty destiny.

The next step in writing is harder. An awesome critter clearly will have a brief story arc ending with "and he defeated everyone"

Itza Chaq Khanx and Khaa'met have the potential to develop over a longer story arc because they start on the outside. One is an outcast. Will he/she ever be accepted? How will regularly spawned LM react to Khaa'met? Are either of these in accord with the great plan?

Scalenex's approach is to anthropomorphize his characters to make them relateable to us warmbloods (actually I'm still not sure if Scalenex is warmblooded). We can understand their frustrations and emotions because we share them. By peppering in factual / cultural references unique to this world ("Mahrlecht! I can't remember if I'm meant to head bob to or tail slap a lesser caste skink!") we can connect with the characters but still see the uniqueness of being a lizard.

Then he kills off all the good characters.

I might try killing a character in my story just to see if he only does it for the feelings of power it gives......

 

[Scalenex]

Scalenex's approach is to anthropomorphize his characters to make them relateable to us warmbloods (actually I'm still not sure if Scalenex is warmblooded). We can understand their frustrations and emotions because we share them. By peppering in factual / cultural references unique to this world ("Mahrlecht! I can't remember if I'm meant to head bob to or tail slap a lesser caste skink!") we can connect with the characters but still see the uniqueness of being a lizard.

Then he kills off all the good characters.

I might try killing a character in my story just to see if he only does it for the feelings of power it gives......

Thanks Bob, for spoiling the ending of all my stories . The power trip is not as strong as you think. I feel sad each time one of my characters dies. I guess I try to avoid unqualified happy or sad endings though.

 

[spawning of Bob]

Wait.... don't you do necromancy? You can kill the character AND have a happy ending!

 

[Axolotyl]

Actually bob I have been planning..... And I might write some more for you tomorrow! Do I edit it to the main thread or do it as a separate post would you say?

 

[spawning of Bob]

We are hijacking the traitor's thread here, but what goes around comes around.

I'm going to start hijacking his creative ideas in the Bob's next chapter, too.

I started with a bunch of "bookmark" blank posts for future chapters, thinking the whole thing would end up more cohesive. That was back when I thought about nine sections would do it. Turns out, a lot of the pleasure (for me anyway) is reading the comments back in context. So I prefer chapter, comments, chapter etc. That's good also for someone to point out subtle jokes (Terrordile Dhun-Dee springs to mind) or other subtle cleverness. Not so necessary for me, as I've taken to slapping people in the face with the obscure stuff.

When I get to the end, if such is possible, I should edit a table of contents into the original post, giving chapter headings and forum pages.

I am on a very interesting learning curve of my own here with writing prose, and have toyed with the idea of having a "writers clinic" thread. Maybe for some alternate reality when I have loads of time.

I should also acknowledge that I've been very fortunate to have a couple of respected individuals PM me with editorial advice, which has helped enormously.

 

[guster]

I think its not easy to seduce LM but its not impossible... All you need is that one slann go crazy and all saurus in that city will follow his commands only problem is with skinks they have brain so that can be problem.. xD

 

[anozeph]

i dont think the christian seven sins applies to this world but i could be wrong, i mean its not like chaos is satans army or that the empire are christian

 

[Scalenex]

i dont think the christian seven sins applies to this world but i could be wrong, i mean its not like chaos is satans army or that the empire are christian

Well I usually find it easier to start with a familiar frame of reference and work back to the fantasy world then try to start in the fantasy world and inject familiarity into it. Anyway. I see this is your first post. Welcome to the forum!

 

[Sacredless]

Sorry to be necroing this thread, but I'd like to apply Orwell on this.

In the book 1984, a world order is described that is so invasively dictatorial that the language is changed to make rebellious thoughts impossible to articulate. I think that this is the reason why Lizardmen are seemingly incorruptible, they simply don't have the capacity or mutability to change their minds on how their society works that radically. The various strata of their language use different but limited dialects that help them perform their job and only that job.

Which is, I think, what would make a lizardman that falls from grace interesting; it probably means that the lizardman was directly or indirectly educated enough to start articulating new thoughts.

So a saurus warrior might go bad if he's exposed to more of the skink dialect than is usually tolerated, allowing him to articulate thoughts that go against his prerogative. For example, in 1984, people don't have a lot of antonyms. So, things are only hot or unhot, rather than hot and cold. So a saurus warrior might learn words that are antonyms to the things all saurus warriors consider ubiquitous.

For example. A saurus warrior learns a word that describes a skink-like caution and starts applying it in the field. That saurus warrior is, thereby, starting to go down the path of cowardice, even if he might be becoming more intelligent in the field at first.

 

[spawning of Bob]

Welcome back, Sacredless. You've obviously gone back and read everything posted on the forum since 2012 - that's commitment!

My characters will one day make it back home with new ideas and was doctrine. They will be seen as heretical for sure. I hope they will show the inherent flaws of the conformist society they outgrew, and change it. Either that or end up with their heads on sticks.

 

[Sacredless]

I... I am not sure if that's meant to be a genuine compliment or snide irony, I'm sorry. ._.

 

[Scalenex]

Welcome back, Sacredless. You've obviously gone back and read everything posted on the forum since 2012 - that's commitment!

I... I am not sure if that's meant to be a genuine compliment or snide irony, I'm sorry.

Obviously you haven't read every post since 2012, otherwise you'd realize that Bob struggles to present genuine compliments and snide irony without mixing the two.

Anyway, @spawning of Bob. thanks to the Lustriapedia, one doesn't have to read every posting to cherry pick gems from threads long past. And obviously if he read every piece since 2012, he would not have apologized for thread necromancy. We love necromancy here....well I do. So he probably just cherry picked. After reading all of Scalenex's fine stories, he probably looked through the discussion topics...

Sorry to be necroing this thread, but I'd like to apply Orwell on this.

In the book 1984, a world order is described that is so invasively dictatorial that the language is changed to make rebellious thoughts impossible to articulate. I think that this is the reason why Lizardmen are seemingly incorruptible, they simply don't have the capacity or mutability to change their minds on how their society works that radically. The various strata of their language use different but limited dialects that help them perform their job and only that job.

Originally I thought Orwell's word destruction was a weak argument. I don't see why someone couldn't say "I think Big Brother is double plus ungood." They could even construct "I hate Big Brother." Origin Newspeak was a personal nightmare of Orwell. He lived through WWII. At the time Great Britain had a higher percentage of the country's land dominated by air fields than any country before or since. Hence Great Britain became Airstrip One. That was personal to Orwell. As a lover of fine literature, he included the dumbing down of literature works because that seemed especially repulsive to him on a personal level. I don't think anyone can create a fictional dystopia without revealing his/her personal fears, joys, and prejudices.

That being said, I'm not sure vocabulary destruction leads to blind obedience but there are studies showing that those with less capacity for critical thinking and those with less education are more likely to follow authoritarian leaders so you are onto something that a Saurus or Skink who gets too smart for his own good might be lead one to disobey a Slann.

Since obedience to the Slann is so paramount to Lizardmen culture I dare say that it would be hard to tell a story of Lizardmen falling from grace without using the theme of obedience. There are two main ways to tie obedience to a Lizardmen falling from grace. Either disobedience leads to evil or blind obedience leads to evil (however you choose to find evil). Both themes have been explored in fluff pieces. Slann aren't immune to this either, Slann can disobey the Old Ones and/or their plaques. Or they can inflexibly follow the Old Ones leading many to harm, especially if the Old Ones are not actual being of pure Good.

The only way I can think of to have one of the First Children of the Old Ones "fall" without obedience being involved is to have someone go insane...always a delightful story. We tend to get at least one story along those lines per short story contest. I liked "Rat Poison" best for incipient madness.