7th Ed. Can terradons drop rocks during a charge?

[Caneghem]

I guess a new thread is in order.

To sum up for those joining, here is the rule under debate.

"Once a game, during the Remaining Moves segment of the Movement phase, a unit of Terradon Riders may drop rocks on an enemy unit at least one of its models has moved over during that phase."

The argument made is that the last word of that sentence implies the whole movement phase. This would also include a fleeing terradon unit that flies over the heads of enemies. The argument against so far has been common sense, precedent with similar attacks, and obvious intent of the writers.

Also of note, based on the wording, the rocks are definitely dropped on the enemy during the remaining moves phase. We know the rocks fall on the enemy during remaining moves, but if the terradons have already charged, how do they get in position to drop rocks? This is why I suggested that maybe the rocks parachute to the ground for the delayed impact.

I have found something that could clear up the situation even further. From the BRB p. 18 under "The Movement Phase"

"As we have seeen before, the movement phase is divided in the following five sub-phases, which we will now analyse in full detail.." (then it lists all the sub-phases)

So the semantic RAW argument isn't rock-solid, as the sub-phase (Remaining Moves) is quite likely what they were referring to. It's easy to find rules written to support your claim, as GW writes at such length in each section. I don't really believe that the stages of the movement phase are absolutely called "sub-phases", I'm just pointing out how easy it is to latch on to a particular bit of phrasing and maybe take it the wrong way.

As a final note, I think the whole dropping rocks while charging wouldn't be a huge upgrade, but it could help protect the terradons from shooting by getting them into combat instead of leaving them in the open as happens after they drop rocks normally. I just tend to err on the side of not giving myself an advantage not intended by those who "balance" the books.

Well, I've now officially written a novel about and researched a ONE-USE niche ability. That means... never drink and post kids!

 

[Craken]

I've already commented on this elsewhere, but here is my 1 argument with charging and dropping rocks. When you charge your models never go over the opponent they stop in front, and the stipulation is that they must move over the opponent. However, like I said before, talk it over with your opponent before the battle on how they think it is fair that it works.

 

[Aren]

I agree with Craken. It seems obvious, since they have to move over the target unit, and they don't move over a unit they have charged. However, if you fly over a unit during your charge (in order to reach the target unit) you can drop the rocks on that unit IMO.

 

[Xtoalz]

I would say you can drop your rocks on another unit you pass over while charging, but ot drop your rocks on the chardged unit.

Maybe you can see a dwarf gunline on a hill with a cannon in front of it (not on hill), you could charge the gunners and drop your rocks on the cannon.

I am totaly new to lizardmen, but thats how we read these rules at out gaming club.

EDIT: was a minute to late with my response :'(

 

[Craken]

Ya I definatly agree with that, if you pass over a different unit during the charge you should be able to drop rock on the unit passed over.

 

[didleoman]

that's what i was refering too when i made my post that started this whole thing. 2 different units one getting charged the other being stoned

i know it wouldn't make any sense to drop rocks on the unit you are charging since you never actually fly over that unit

 

[Caneghem]

that's what i was refering too when i made my post that started this whole thing. 2 different units one getting charged the other being stoned

i know it wouldn't make any sense to drop rocks on the unit you are charging since you never actually fly over that unit

We seem to have come full circle again! How does everyone reconcile the fact that the ability can only be used in the "Remaining Moves" part of the movement phase? Charge movement happens before remaining moves...

 

[strewart]

Well.. I have finally had a look at the rules, and I can give my opinion for what its worth.

People against charging and dropping rocks on a different target on the way keep referring to it happening 'in the remaining moves'. But what you need to notice in the section on page 52 is that while the rocks are dropped during the remaining move phase, it says:

"a unit of terradons may drop rocks on an enemy unit at least one of its models has moved over during that phase"

You aren't going to be doing your movement during the remaining move phase. You move in the movement phase, then in the remaining movement phase drop rocks on a unit you moved over during the phase. Delayed reaction? Parachutes? Or simply doing your movement first THEN working out other effects, making the sequence of the game go smoothly. For example, you shoot 25% of a unit in the shooting phase, they need a panic test, it doesn't happen right then, it happens at the end of the shooting phase. Does the unit stand around and watch all ther other shooting happening before fleeing? Hell no, they flee straight away when they get shot but it is worked out AFTER the shooting has all happened to make the game smoother.

So now that the LM army book has clearly defined that at the end of the phase, you can drop rocks on anyone you moved over during the phase, lets define the phase shall we?

Page 11 of the BRB sums it up nicely. There is a box that says "THE MOVEMENT PHASE" In that box, there are 5 segments. Declare chargers, rally fleeing troops, compulsory moves, move charges, remaining moves.

It looks very very clear to me that charging is part of the move phase, and thus in "the remaining move segment..." (Page 52 LM AB) "may drop rocks on ..... during that phase" (Page 52 LM AB) means that according to the definition of "The movement phase" on page 11 of the BRB, you can fly over one unit to charge another and drop rocks on that unit in the way. I can see no other interpretation.

Of course, you would need to have it perfectly ligned up so you had LoS to the second unit but the first unit was at least partially in the way. Remembering of course that only one of the terradons needs to pass over the unit for all of them to be able to drop rocks, and only one needs to see the second unit to charge, there can be a reasonable angle rather than a straight line going over the first and onto the second. I'll see if I can draw something...


T T T


---W
--------W


T is terradon, W is warmachine. You have clear LoS to the further one, but at least one model will fly over the first to reach the second, so I say since you move in the movement phase you can drop rocks on the way, just resolve it in the remaining moves segment.

 

[Caneghem]

BRB p. 18 under "The Movement Phase"
"As we have seeen before, the movement phase is divided in the following five sub-phases, which we will now analyse in full detail.." (then it lists all the sub-phases)

So while it refers to the remaining moves segment of the movement phase in the army book, it calls the different parts of the phase "sub-phases" in the BRB where it introduces what each of them means. People make mistakes when writing rulebooks, and sometimes use shorthand when they feel like they have explained themselves enough. Not to mention, the BRB refers to remaining moves as a sub-phase.

"Or simply doing your movement first THEN working out other effects, making the sequence of the game go smoothly. For example, you shoot 25% of a unit in the shooting phase, they need a panic test, it doesn't happen right then, it happens at the end of the shooting phase."

Read the rules for panic tests again, panic tests happen at the end of ANY phase, including movement.

BRB p.49
"Note that you only need to take one panic test per unit in each phase (start of turn, movement, magic, shooting and close combat phase), even if there are multiple reasons to take Panic tests."

If things were different for the movement phase specifically, then I could see a point in saying, "maybe they did it that way to make things simpler", but the panic rules are already clear and sufficient. Attacks are always rolled as they happen, it is the psychology tests that can be delayed.

If anything, resolving the hits from an attack that happened earlier makes it more confusing and convoluted. Again, there is literally no precedent for this sort of ability... except abilities that people "discovered" according to the rules as written. These abilities tend to be short-lived, as they get hit with the FAQ stick. GW usually begins the FAQ with "Darn that copy-paste button!"

This reminds me of the ever popular "flame cannons don't make flaming attacks" argument. It's true, under the flame cannon's special rules profile in the dwarf book, "flaming attacks" doesn't appear anywhere. Many players refused to see this as merely an accident, and swore up and down it didn't make flaming attacks (until the FAQ shut them up of course).

 

[strewart]

Read the rules for panic tests again, panic tests happen at the end of ANY phase, including movement.

BRB p.49
"Note that you only need to take one panic test per unit in each phase (start of turn, movement, magic, shooting and close combat phase), even if there are multiple reasons to take Panic tests."

I don't really see how that changes my point... In magic, all magic happens before a panic test, not panic test required > happens. Same in shooting. Same in any phase. That was my point, they happen at the end not as they are required.

BRB p. 18 under "The Movement Phase"
"As we have seeen before, the movement phase is divided in the following five sub-phases, which we will now analyse in full detail.." (then it lists all the sub-phases)

That is a good point, and does indeed illustrate their shorthand. But we can only play the game as we read it. I am more than happy to accept that the movement phase is split into 'subphases' rather than 'segments' as is mentioned in the LM book and page 11, clearly it can be either segments or subphases.

So does page 52 of the LM book say they drop rocks on a model that they moved over "during that subphase? If so, Then they cannot. But if you call it a subphase, and the implication is subphase, then the LM book would say during that subphase. It doesn't. It says during that phase. The phase is movement, the subphase or segment is remaining moves. It can be dropped on units passed over during the phase. Whethere you want to go by page 11 and the LM book (mentioning segments), or whether you want to go by your example on page 18 of subphases, it still says you may do it from movement during the phase, not during the subphase.

 

[didleoman]

the only time i don't see it viable is when fleeing... a fleeing unit may take no actions other then flee... that is the sole action they do

this is just another rule that people won't be swayed from their side of the fence

like how some people feel that bane head + piranha blade = 3 wounds or 4 wounds and even 2 wounds

 

[msinosic]

I have commented enough on this already in the other thread and I feel we are all in agreement bar one person is still beating the dead horse. poor horsey.

 

[MrPeaBuddy]

I'm glad i didn't join in this thread


My head hurts

 

[Caneghem]

"If so, Then they cannot. But if you call it a subphase, and the implication is subphase, then the LM book would say during that subphase."

We only disagree on the implication and intent of the rules, not on what is written. I agree that you could construe the rule to function as you say, and using the strict construction of a single sentence you would be right. I also think that is a deliberate overlooking of the rules as intended as well as this being a unique and bizarre departure from the norm (see screamers), and that you shouldn't build dropping rocks during a charge into your playstyle because of the fact that it wouldn't fly at a tournament. Do you really forsee an impartial judge at a tourney interpreting the rules the same way?

That's all I got to say about that. We can bury the horse.

 

[didleoman]

you have nothing to lose really if you ask... just like local games... ask before the game starts

if they say no fine... they say yes fine... either way the judge will tell you if you can or not at a tourny

in a friendly game if you can't decide.. let the dice decide

 

[Aparach]

you have nothing to lose really if you ask... just like local games... ask before the game starts

if they say no fine... they say yes fine... either way the judge will tell you if you can or not at a tourny

in a friendly game if you can't decide.. let the dice decide

Long live "The Most Important Rule" - BRB pp.3

 

[jormi_boced]

I would see no reason they couldn't drop rocks on a unit they moved over during their charge.