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AoS Carnasaur vs Stegadon 3.0

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Lambs and Lions, Jun 22, 2021.

  1. Lambs and Lions
    Cold One

    Lambs and Lions Active Member

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    With the new edition coming out I wanted to discuss our two melee monsters, the Scar vet on carnasaur and the skink chief on stegadon.

    Both of these units got a few nice buffs with the new edition being monsters and heroes, the can make a heroic action such as healing and a monsterous action such as mortal wounds on the charge. In addition, it's much easier to get extra artifacts now and both of these bad boys want one. Finally, they count as 5 models for scoring in an edition of MSUs so they can easily charge onto an objective, kill one model, and take it over.

    Carnasaurs are really nice monster for 215. 12 wounds with a 4+ save, 10" move, and big nasty jaw attack that does 5 damage. The new 5+ ward save artifact seems really nice to keep this dino alive. On his own I think he is probably stronger that the skink chief on stegadon, but seraphon is not an army where our guys are ever alone.

    The skink chief on stegadon's biggest strength is that he is a skink and skinks get so many good abilities. For 305 points the stegadon is 90 points more than the carnasaur, he has less wounds at 10 wounds and less move at 8" move. They both have the same 4+ save but the stegadon has a few ways to increase his save, such as fighting a small unit, taking a stegadon helm, getting buffed by a skink priest or being nimble. While the 5+ ward save artifact would also be very nice on a stegadon I think the cloak of feathers is a better choice giving +4" movement, flying and -1 to hit. Speaking of movement buffs: a nimble, feather cloak, fangs of Sotek stegadon buffed by a skink priest can move 16" run and charge on turn 1. I could easily see the stegadon being used as a nice alpha striker with "their finest hour" and a skink priest to hit on 2s and wound on 2s for all it's attacks.

    Both the stegadon and the carnasaur are strongest in thunder lizards, they both would like the +2 wounds and prime warbeast. The carnasaur benefits much more from the +1 jaw attacks too. But the stegadon can go into starborne allegiances and still be powerful.

    So what it really comes down to is that the carnasaur is strong on his own but can't be buffed up very much while the stegadon is okay on his own but goes over the top when buffed.

    I think both are a very good addition to any army and I hope to see them both seeing more play than last edition, but I think the skink chiefs on stegadons are really something to keep an eye out for. Which one will you all be playing?
     
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  2. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    With 90 pts difference Chief is out of competition. As for Stegadon vs Carnosaur - it is a complicated question, they are too different too compare, IMO and there's simply no competition for them.

    Scar-vet vs EotG is at least interesting, IMO. Difference is only 50 pts vs 90, but EotG get access to Cloak of Feathers, which is huge. Also, EotG can deal twice as much mortal wounds on charge, can heal and summon stuff. It also has access to all the skink tricks. The damage is also more consistant. Not sure, but it seems to me you will more likely do no damage with carno than with EotG.

    IMO, if you want a cheap monster with OK damage, which do not depends on other part of you army, can eat a bunch of damage and still survive, take Carno.

    If you need fast, survivable monster which can fly, get run and charge, do lots of mortal wounds/summon and can fly, go for EotG.

    I will take Chief over eotg only if: 1) I desperately want bow; 2) I desperately want +1 attack; 3) I have 40 points with nothing to fill with (which is very possible now).
     
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  3. ArtoriusaurusRex
    Temple Guard

    ArtoriusaurusRex Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible that the Skink Chief on Stegadon was underpriced before? I think it is.

    Is it possible that the Skink Chief on Stegadon is worth 40 points more than the EotG? I think that is, too.


    Maybe we were spoiled before. I get it's not a VLoZD, but is 305 really such a disgusting price in the context of all the new prices of 3ed? I...really don't think so? Not with everything we can give it.


    215 for a Carnosaur is just bonkers good, so that's hardly in question.
     
  4. PJetski
    Chameleon Skink

    PJetski Active Member

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    305 points for a 10 wound monster? I'm very skeptical
     
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  5. ArtoriusaurusRex
    Temple Guard

    ArtoriusaurusRex Well-Known Member

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    I would say yes, but only as a Prime Warbeast in Thunder Lizard, with a cloak of feathers or amulet of destiny
     
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  6. Lambs and Lions
    Cold One

    Lambs and Lions Active Member

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    The +1 attack is pretty darn strong. It increases the damage of melee weapons by as much as 50% for the big horn attacks. Also the bow is much more consistent that the eotgs, especially when you don't have a slann near by.

    Some of the big things that hurt the skink chief on stegadon in the last edition were that artifacts were hard to get because our battalions were not great. Or if you were taking a battalion you were taking a stegadon eotg or carnasaur. Also since he counted as a single model he could smash through to a objective but then what? Carnasaurs usually had knights or warriors at it's heels ready to use the space the carnasaur made.
     
  7. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    Surely, it is strong and more consistent, but it is 40 points. Not 10, not 20 - 40. Even without Slann Eotg will do something - and I still see no reason not to have slann or Kroak. Also, you can only have single command ability per phase now. I would agree that Stegachief was worth current points if he could stack command abilities as before. Loss of thunderquake hurts too. It was a great battalion.

    I am not really sure what makes you think that way. Stegachief was the easiest hero to get artefact on in a competitive list - just take thunderquake and you are great. And I don't see how objectives was the problem for Chief - either kill everything on it or take more skinks. Unlike Carno and saurus, chief was perfectly consistent with skinks.
     
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  8. PJetski
    Chameleon Skink

    PJetski Active Member

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    Carnosaur with Prime Warbeast and Amulet of Destiny... plus 90 points :p
     
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  9. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    No shooting, no run+charge unit already in combat, no cloak of feathers, almost no synergy with a skink-heavy army, no free mortal wounds, no free +1 save against low number of models.
     
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  10. Putzfrau
    Skar-Veteran

    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    Stegadons are simply too expensive when compared with a carnosaur IMO. Biggest advantage is that they can fill the "behemoth that's not a leader" slot in core battalions.

    Steg chief at 305 seems overpriced considering it's a 90 point increase over a scarnosaur.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
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  11. Dingus
    Skink

    Dingus New Member

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    Scar Vet Carnosaur seems cartoonishly undercosted for what it does. I'm amazed that didn't get a much bigger price increase.
     
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  12. Christopher
    Terradon

    Christopher Well-Known Member

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    I sure hope so! Because while I'm mainly in this for the building and the painting and the reading, I do really like playing AoS. I'm just terrible at it! I need to read a book on small unit tactics or something.
     
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  13. Tyranitar
    Ripperdactil

    Tyranitar Well-Known Member

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    My best guess is that gw just did point adjustments in a vacuum instead of contextually. They likely thought the Scar vets CA wasn't valuable since you can't trigger multiple abilities on 6's to hit anymore without realizing that we don't have much else in the book that conflicts with that. Saurus heroes have it built into their scrolls, and the KC artifact does 2 mortals on 6's to hit, but that's it that I can think of.

    Or it's just completely random with no thought process and I'm trying to make sense of it. Like the trog going up by 50 points is just mind blowing for instance lol
     
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  14. Lambs and Lions
    Cold One

    Lambs and Lions Active Member

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    So I decided to do a little math hammer figuring out how much damage each monster can do. I made 3 calculation first if it's just on its own, next if it is the prime war beast and third, with all the buffs I can easily give them. These are assuming they are up against something with a 4+ save

    Buffs for canosaur are prime warbeast, all out attack, and the great drake.

    Normal: 9.9 wounds 21.7 points per wound
    Prime warbeast: 12.29 wounds 17.5 points per wound
    Everything: 16.12 wounds 13.3 points per wound

    For the stegadon I assume it will always use it's command ability on itself. Buffs to give itself include skink priest CA, star drake, and prime warbeast.

    Normal: 14.03 wounds 21.8 points per wound
    Warbeast: 17.3 wounds 17.6 points per wound
    Everything: 25.3 wounds 12 points per wound

    So really damage per point the two are pretty darn balanced. It should be noted the carnasaur needs to be coalesced or it will lose a lot of damage and get nothing in return. The stegadon in starborne is much more viable and the +3 to move from fang of Sotek is nice for an alpha charge.

    The carnasaur has a better points to wounds ratio making it better against mortal wounds, but the stegadon has several ways of easily stacking +1 save making it more tanky vs rend attacks.

    So really I think both are great monsters worth considering. Stegadon if you put the work into it you will get a huge benefit while carnasaur can just do his own thing and be pretty good.
     
  15. Tyranitar
    Ripperdactil

    Tyranitar Well-Known Member

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    I think the EotG is much more appealing now as it only went up 5 points. It has 2 more wounds than the steg chief and you get the engine activation, but lose the ranged weapon and the command ability. Might be worth considering
     
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  16. Lizerd
    Skink Priest

    Lizerd Well-Known Member

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    Carnosaurs all the way, have more versatility than the steg. While it might lack the mortal wounds offered, the carnosaur makes up in a few ways, notably its faster, better bravery means heroic recovery and other utility, the carno also has the ability to deal more damage, and finally we come to cost. With Stegs being so much more expensive, the fact that carnosaurs can equal, if not exceed their damage output is a testament to carnosaurs being lethally efficient and being a better melee damage platform than the stegadon.

    IMHO, if you're taking a stegadon its for the ranged weapons, or the potential mortal wounds they can offer. Simply put you dont take a stegadon for the raw potential melee damage.
     
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  17. Sudsinabucket
    Skink Chief

    Sudsinabucket Well-Known Member

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    Sotek Snake Boi Basti melee is better than a Carnos, fight me
     
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  18. Lizerd
    Skink Priest

    Lizerd Well-Known Member

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    alright then :D

    2k points tts, teachers parking lot
     
  19. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    I most definitely will fight you. I don't even have a stake in this fight but that is absolutely untrue
     
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  20. Sudsinabucket
    Skink Chief

    Sudsinabucket Well-Known Member

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    Bruh, i handle my mess ON THE PLAYGROUND, I dont need no teacher holding my hand

    Ill see you on the castle bridge, first to fall... falls into Lava (aka... wood chips)
     
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