8th Ed. Chameleon skinks in numbers?

[grd[25]]

I haven't had an opportunity to field any chameleon skinks yet so I thought to reach out to those that have.

I've read that chameleon skinks are good at war machine hunting. If so, how many would you need to use?

Depending on how many you have to use, point-for-point are they more viable than 3 or 6 ripperdactyls?

 

[Mr Phat]

For competitive play I never go with out at least a unit of 6.

Because of their scouting your opponent have to take them in consideration when lining up his forces (and indeed his war-machines) in deployment, and it might cause him a lot of irritation for close to no points.

short answer: yes, they are very good at hunting warmachines.

longer answer:
I prefer them over Terradons. I have not yet tried rippers for warmachine hunting so I cant say anything about that for sure, but I know they wouldn't work (for warmachines) in my meta, as too much is between them and those machines for them to statistically NOT charge anything else due to frenzy.

when answering to "how many" the answer will be "how many can you fit in?" in both terms of what your playstyle is and if there is actual space for them to slip through you opponents ranks to get to the juicy bits behind their lines.

3 or 4 wide is what works best for me, meaning units of either 6 or 8.
When it comes to skirmishers like chameleons I like more small units rather than a few big ones.
This also makes it even harder for your opponents deployment.

Where they DO fall short compared to terradons and rippers is that they dont fly.
My friends have gotten used to my Chameleons so they know how to place themselves (yet I still bring em, as its still to my advantage). This means my chameleons cant get through, and usually that means that they end up assisting other skirmisher units in making needle-cousins of other targets.
I am starting to think I should bring both chameleons and some flyers...possibly rippers, I dont know yet.

Try two units of 6 to start out with and see if they can get the job done
hope it helps!

 

[Lizardmatt]

Has anyone tried a really large unit? Like 20+

I've only had success with 6-8, as bigger than that I can't slip out of charge arcs; but I'm wondering if you can go big enough that you can shoot enough to stand off instead of slip between.

-Matt

 

[Pinktaco]

I usually go with 10. For whatever reason even 20 attacks will only generate 2-3 poison attacks. Dunno why really..

 

[hdctambien]

For whatever reason even 20 attacks will only generate 2-3 poison attacks. Dunno why really..

That's about what you should get. 1/6 * 20 = 3.3 poison hits.

I like the smaller units because, as Lizardmatt said, you can get around units easily. Also, if a unit of 5 or 6 Chamos dies, it's not too many points down the drain. So, you can be more risky with them.

I much prefer 2 units of 5 to 1 unit of 10. I think 6 is the magic number for "should get at least 2 poisons", "not very expensive", and "really small footprint".

All that being said, I have had very little success with Chameleon Skinks. If I don' get 1st turn, my Chamos won't live to see a shooting phase. When I do get first turn, I haven't had much luck with actually killing anything (stupids Elfs and Dwarfs putting armor on their war machine crew... who do they think they are?!).

 

[olderplayer]

Very funny Pink, but well put. A unit of ten is 20 shots. and will average 3.33 poison hits. Usually, that is just enough to kill a normal war machine with crew of three and will generally kill high elf and dark elf bolt throwers with high probability because they have only two crew. Since they are really good at sniping tough monsters with lower armour saves and war machines (often T7 to shooting and magic) they are extremely handy plus they are -2 to BS shootinng and have greater BS than normal skinks, allowing them to march and shoot with 2 shots each at long range and still get poison. For example, this weekend I saw a unit of chameleion skinks put all the wounds on a bloodthirster and even though depleted they managed to ultimately kill it. Similarly saw poison shooting from skaven scouts take out a K'dai in a chaos daemon army over a few turns of shooting (K'dai makes one re-roll to wound non-magical attacks but poison hits don't roll to wound). They are a problem for terrorgheists such that sometimes a Vvampire general will take a turn just to try to get rid of them or avoid them. A couple or few poison wounds on a terrogheist realy reduces its ability to kill with its scream.

At 2500 and with open lists in events we play, we typically don't get to deploy the skinks in the opposing deployment zone unless they really invested heavily in big units and characters and monsters. But making the opponent spread out the units to block the scouts and avoid concentrating war machines and then avoid moving to expose the war machines and chameleon shooting is pretty handy.

All that being said, they are very vulnerable to magic missiles and direct damage spells and things like fast cav (especially dark riders with 4= AS now), high armour cav, flying units, and being charged by other units, so they often have to flee when charged to be saved even if a good stand and shoot seems tempting. Two units of harpies (dark evles and beastman) or furies (daemons) can create situations where one will get the charge and kill the chameleoms in combat or easily break them with their low LD and poor combat abilities. The 8th edition rules forcing them to essentially be played in loose ranks makes them a lot more vulnerable in that way.

A unit of 10 or two of 6 is kind of a mimimum base of a LM army. I see two units of 10 be with their points cost, that can be a bit too much investment relative to other stuff in the army.

 

[Scalenex]

I agree with everything the above posters said. I would like to add that Chameleon Skinks become MORE useful in smaller points games. The more empty table space you have relative to the size of the army, the easier it is to drop your Chameleon Skinks on your opponent's soft underbelly.

a 1500 point game or less on a standard table would recommend at least two units of Chameleon Skinks. Speaking of which, regardless of whether you are playing a large game or a small game, two units of five usually out perform one unit of ten. The only thing the unit of 10 can do slightly better is not panic from a magic missile. I personally like units of 7 or 8.

The new book doesn't cap Chameleon Skinks at 10 anymore, but I haven't read a single army list or battle report where someone fields a unit of more than 10. When you can field at least three separate units of Chamo Skinks in any game, there's no benefit to growing your unit past 10 that I can see.

 

[Mr Phat]

two units of five usually out perform one unit of ten. The only thing the unit of 10 can do slightly better is not panic from a magic missile.

First of: I agree that several small units is better

but it should be said that one large unit has an advantage in term of magical buffs.

if you have two units of 5 you can only buff 5 models with one spell
if you have one unit of 10 you can buff 10 models with one spell

Harmonic convergance:
re-rolls 1's to hit (extra poison chance) and re-roll 1's to wound, even though it aint poison it gets an extra chance to go through for extra needle-cousin.

walk between worlds:
you get it...probably rarely useful if you know how to play scouts

hand of glory:
make more of those hits! even with move + multishot!
combine this with harmonic and WAY too many shots gets to hit.

I havn't tried this but imagine the effect.

as said: I still recommend the two smaller units, as you will probably want those spells of on something else anyway.
I just thought it should be mentioned!
Every card on your hand is a card to play

 

[JuQ]

For me 6 is the perfect number, they are as wide and deep as a 5 skink unit with 1 more guy shooting.

The point of keeping this units small is that bigger units are more dificult tu deploy and move around the enemies troops. If you have a bigger unit your movement will still be the same and you menot be able to move them all from the enemy's front arc.
The blowpipes range is also quite short, so the bigger the unit the more difficult it will be to get them all in range.

I never pay for the champion upgrade, theese guys are meant to be hitting on 6+ to take advantage of the poison. So if one guy hits on 5+ it won't be really good because you will still have to wound with S3. It's way better to bring another chameleon and have more bodies on the field.

 

[Putzfrau]

one unit of 6 and one unit of 7 or 8 IMO.

but then again, I've been going light on them recently. solar beam cannon too much fun.

 

[grd[25]]

So from what I'm seeing, multiple small units, 6-8, of chameleon skinks are the way to go. Also, regardless of the point amount of the game, chameleon skinks should almost always be taken?

I'll give it a try. Thanks. Any other suggestions regarding chameleons?

 

[Mr Phat]

I'll give it a try. Thanks. Any other suggestions regarding chameleons?

yup, never forget their long list of things they can do:

They are
- 1 to hit from skirmish
- 1 to hit from chameleon skin
- 1 to hit in forests (also Stubborn in forests)

your opponent easily forgets that they are extra hard to hit. Dont let them.

also they can effectively multi-shoot and keep poison on a stand-and-shoot reaction.

 

[Scalenex]

So from what I'm seeing, multiple small units, 6-8, of chameleon skinks are the way to go. Also, regardless of the point amount of the game, chameleon skinks should almost always be taken?

I'll give it a try. Thanks. Any other suggestions regarding chameleons?

I would suggest reading this. About the only thing NOT in it is recommended unit size (maybe I should modify it).

 

[JuQ]

I'll give it a try. Thanks. Any other suggestions regarding chameleons?

yup, never forget their long list of things they can do:

They are
- 1 to hit from skirmish
- 1 to hit from chameleon skin
- 1 to hit in forests (also Stubborn in forests)
.

Also:
-1 to hit in rivers and marshes from being skinks (I want a flooded forest terrain type now!)

 

[Pinktaco]

I'll give it a try. Thanks. Any other suggestions regarding chameleons?

yup, never forget their long list of things they can do:

They are
- 1 to hit from skirmish
- 1 to hit from chameleon skin
- 1 to hit in forests (also Stubborn in forests)
.

Also:
-1 to hit in rivers and marshes from being skinks (I want a flooded forest terrain type now!)

There's a marsh that gives -2 to hit. I've had my cameleons placed there, ready to shoot at my enemy

 

[Mr Phat]

Tomb kings dont care.

 

[chefsdad]

So from what I'm seeing, multiple small units, 6-8, of chameleon skinks are the way to go. Also, regardless of the point amount of the game, chameleon skinks should almost always be taken?

I'll give it a try. Thanks. Any other suggestions regarding chameleons?

I'd even suggest the bog standard 5's. Cheap enough to not care if they die, and in games where the warmachines are too well protected can act as early redirectors.

 

[Mr Phat]

darn those cheaters.

yea....overpowered toilet-rolls...

and in games where the warmachines are too well protected can act as early redirectors.

somehow this feels like a waste to me. I know its no different than a group of skirmishers pointwise, but the potential of fielding these guys seems way above a redirector role.

If they cant get through tothe WM I usually just have them go hunting other single/few models units hoping for lucky-shots.

 

[hdctambien]

chefsdad wrote:
and in games where the warmachines are too well protected can act as early redirectors.


somehow this feels like a waste to me. I know its no different than a group of skirmishers pointwise, but the potential of fielding these guys seems way above a redirector role.

If they cant get through tothe WM I usually just have them go hunting other single/few models units hoping for lucky-shots.

Another use is Vanguard blockers. You can really put a kink in someones plan if their strategy is based on lots of vanguard and you plop down 2 or 3 units of Chameleons in the middle of the board 12 inches apart from each other.

 

[The Hunted]

6 is the magic number for 2 reasons;
- Poison

12 shots should give you 2 poisoned shots each time. Or 4, with my new dice...

- War machines

Sometimes you just need to charge a war machine, to prevent it from shooting. No matter if you win/lose but that cannon/bolt thrower/stone thrower just cannot shoot next round. And only 6 infantry models can fight vs a crew, so I make sure I have 6 chameleons to start with.
When you charge a crew, you should be able to kill 1 and no matter what the other 1 or 2 crewmembers do; you will at least tie the combat; Charge+wound vs 1 or 2 wounds. And then you have succesfully held up a war machine from shooting!

I am only scared of magic missiles, flyers and other skirmishers. Sure, fast cav is also scary; but a stand and shoot is also dangerous for them.

The Hunted