8th Ed. CHAOS DWARFS ~ Analysis & Tactics Discussion

[NIGHTBRINGER]

A thread for Dawi-Zharr Sorcerer-Prophets (and others who care to join in on the fun) to discuss the Chaos Dwarfs in terms of general tactics, strategies, unit analysis, etc. Pretty much everything outside of complete list building for which I've set up an alternate thread.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

How does the Iron Daemon do in terms of competitive play, @NIGHTBRINGER?

In my opinion it is a bit of a mixed bag, it has some great attributes but also a fatal flaw. I believe it can do well, but it is probably one of the harder units to utilize effectively (especially against a skilled opponent).

I miight as well start with the fatal flaw in its rules design. The Iron Daemon is essentially the Chaos Dwarf version of the Steam Tank. They have quite a few differences, but the biggest one that stands out to me is the fact that the Steam Tank has a grinding attack in ongoing rounds of combat, while the Iron Daemon is purely reliant (outside of a few crew attacks which won't do anything of significance) on its Thunderstomp in any round which it did not charge. Mind you that its Thunderstomp is at a mighty S8, but like all stomps, it is limited to Infantry, War Beasts or Swarms. Therefore an opponent can tie up the Iron Daemon with any unit that is not one of these three unit types (imagine a silly eagle tying up your Iron Daemon!). As a result, the Iron Daemon's performance is very much reliant on your ability to get it into combat with a Thunderstompable unit and your ability to keep non-stompable units either away from it or having something ready to step in to peel these units off. This is also complicated by the fact that the Iron Daemon is not the most maneuverable unit in the movement phase.

On the plus side however, the Iron Daemon is one of the very best anvil units and can easily tie up most opposing units. It is fully unbreakable and has a very impressive defense with its 7 wounds at toughness 7 (which is boosted to 8 wounds at toughness 8 when Hellbound) and a 3+ armour save. Outside of a limited number of threats (cannons, Searing Doom, Initiative based spells, etc.) it is very difficult to kill.

Offensively, there is no doubt that you are looking for the charge in order to unleash its devastating D6+2 S8 impact hits. Not many things in the game wil; feel comfortable on the receiving end of that. If you purchase the Skullcracker upgrade, its impact hits are increased to 2D6+2 and its Thunderstomp to 2D6. That said, this costs you an additional 30 points and you lose your Steam Cannonade. Personally, I'd opt to forgo the Skullcracker upgrade and keep the Steam Cannonade, because it gives the Iron Daemon a bit more utility. The Steam Cannonade does at times have difficulty hitting but when it does, it hits at S6 with the Armour Piercing and Multiple Wounds (D3) special rules. It is a monster and monstrous unit killer. It is also very rarely misfires (1 in 36 chance), but it can be difficult to line up a shot because it can only fire at a unit that is directly ahead of it.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

In my opinion it is a bit of a mixed bag, it has some great attributes but also a fatal flaw. I believe it can do well, but it is probably one of the harder units to utilize effectively (especially against a skilled opponent).

I miight as well start with the fatal flaw in its rules design. The Iron Daemon is essentially the Chaos Dwarf version of the Steam Tank. They have quite a few differences, but the biggest one that stands out to me is the fact that the Steam Tank has a grinding attack in ongoing rounds of combat, while the Iron Daemon is purely reliant (outside of a few crew attacks which won't do anything of significance) on its Thunderstomp in any round which it did not charge. Mind you that its Thunderstomp is at a mighty S8, but like all stomps, it is limited to Infantry, War Beasts or Swarms. Therefore an opponent can tie up the Iron Daemon with any unit that is not one of these three unit types (imagine a silly eagle tying up your Iron Daemon!). As a result, the Iron Daemon's performance is very much reliant on your ability to get it into combat with a Thunderstompable unit and your ability to keep non-stompable units either away from it or having something ready to step in to peel these units off. This is also complicated by the fact that the Iron Daemon is not the most maneuverable unit in the movement phase.

On the plus side however, the Iron Daemon is one of the very best anvil units and can easily tie up most opposing units. It is fully unbreakable and has a very impressive defense with its 7 wounds at toughness 7 (which is boosted to 8 wounds at toughness 8 when Hellbound) and a 3+ armour save. Outside of a limited number of threats (cannons, Searing Doom, Initiative based spells, etc.) it is very difficult to kill.

Offensively, there is no doubt that you are looking for the charge in order to unleash its devastating D6+2 S8 impact hits. Not many things in the game wil; feel comfortable on the receiving end of that. If you purchase the Skullcracker upgrade, its impact hits are increased to 2D6+2 and its Thunderstomp to 2D6. That said, this costs you an additional 30 points and you lose your Steam Cannonade. Personally, I'd opt to forgo the Skullcracker upgrade and keep the Steam Cannonade, because it gives the Iron Daemon a bit more utility. The Steam Cannonade does at times have difficulty hitting but when it does, it hits at S6 with the Armour Piercing and Multiple Wounds (D3) special rules. It is a monster and monstrous unit killer. It is also very rarely misfires (1 in 36 chance), but it can be difficult to line up a shot because it can only fire at a unit that is directly ahead of it.

S**t! I hadn't even thought of the non-Thunderstompable units!!!

I agree on the anvil point. You could also use it to tie up a unit that you don't want to have flank you in the same way that you talked about here.

For me, it's on my list of things to get anyways as I have a beautiful vision in mind to have a magma cannon on steam carriage moved to the flank of my opponents army and then I template-attack the s**t out of him.

Funnily enough, I would use it the same way I use a Stegadon: Never by itself due to various weaknesses, but a great flank combo charging unit. Adding on the steam carriage means I can get something like the magma cannon into a fantastic position to cause some real damage.

I need to fully explore the possibilities of the steam carriages. Deathshrieker rockets don't need to get close, Hellcannons neither. Need to work out what else I could do with this.

Plus it's a Chaos Dwarf only option to have a war machine running around the table AND STILL FIRING so I'll definitely work out some tactics for it.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Is this a legit deathshrieker model Nightbringer? It's on ebay as a Forge World version...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Is this a legit deathshrieker model Nightbringer? It's on ebay as a Forge World version...

View attachment 100690

That is the Forge World sculpt, but there is no way to tell from the picture if it is a legit Forge World cast or a recast.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

S**t! I hadn't even thought of the non-Thunderstompable units!!!

It really sucks, I'm not sure if they made the decision by design or if it was an oversight/blunder on their part. If you changed its Thunderstomp to a Grinding attack, like the Steam Tank has, it would be a pretty awesome unit.

For me, it's on my list of things to get anyways as I have a beautiful vision in mind to have a magma cannon on steam carriage moved to the flank of my opponents army and then I template-attack the s**t out of him.

Adding on the steam carriage means I can get something like the magma cannon into a fantastic position to cause some real damage.

I need to fully explore the possibilities of the steam carriages

Plus it's a Chaos Dwarf only option to have a war machine running around the table AND STILL FIRING so I'll definitely work out some tactics for it.

I can't stress this enough, the only reason to attach war machines to the Iron Daemon via the steam carriage upgrade is for fluff, thematic or fun reasons. It is an absolutely TERRIBLE tactical choice and a complete waste of points for several reasons:

1. You can only fire attached war machines if the Iron Daemon remains stationary
"Weapons mounted on carriages attached in a train may only fire if the Iron Daemon is stationary that turn" [page 177]

2. If you uncouple a war machine from the Iron Daemon, it can't shoot that turn either because it counts as moving

3. It is expensive (25 points for something that I wouldn't choose to do even if it was free)

4. War machines are typically best kept protected behind/within your lines. Rest assured, unless you are facing a superior gun line, your enemy will come to you.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Lizards of Renown here are the results of a survey that was completed on the Chaos-Dwarfs forum . Respondents were asked to rank each unit from 1 to 5. It is based on the votes of only 14 people, so make of it what you will, but it should give us a good starting off point. Some of the results are as expected, with a few small surprises here or there. I've rearranged the entries from best to worst:

Magma Cannon 4.50

K'daii Destroyer 4.43

Hellcannon 4.14

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher 3.93

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Castellan 3.43

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Prophet 3.36

Chaos Dwarf Deamonsmith Sorcerer 3.36

Bull Centaur Taur'ruk 3.21

Bale Taurus (mount) 3.21

Great Taurus (mount) 3.15

Giant Wolf (mount) 3.15

Hobgoblin Khan 3.00

Hobgoblin Cutthroats 2.93

Hobgoblin Wolf Raiders 2.93

Iron Daemon 2.71

Dreadquake Mortar 2.71

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard 2.64

Bull Centaur Renders 2.64

Lammasu (mount) 2.62

K'daii Fireborn 2.57

Chaos Seige Giant 2.00

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Ironsworn 1.64




Here is the legend given to the voters:
5 – This choice is extremely powerful / under-costed
4 – A very competitive choice, good value for the points.
3 – An OK choice, not optimal but still decent
2 – This unit is below par, either underpowered or overcosted
1 – Complete rubbish, very difficult to find any use for it

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@Lizards of Renown here are the results of a survey that was completed on the Chaos-Dwarfs forum . Respondents were asked to rank each unit from 1 to 5. It is based on the votes of only 14 people, so make of it what you will, but it should give us a good starting off point. Some of the results are as expected, with a few small surprises here or there. I've rearranged the entries from best to worst:

Magma Cannon 4.50

K'daii Destroyer 4.43

Hellcannon 4.14

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher 3.93

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Castellan 3.43

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Prophet 3.36

Chaos Dwarf Deamonsmith Sorcerer 3.36

Bull Centaur Taur'ruk 3.21

Bale Taurus (mount) 3.21

Great Taurus (mount) 3.15

Giant Wolf (mount) 3.15

Hobgoblin Khan 3.00

Hobgoblin Cutthroats 2.93

Hobgoblin Wolf Raiders 2.93

Iron Daemon 2.71

Dreadquake Mortar 2.71

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard 2.64

Bull Centaur Renders 2.64

Lammasu (mount) 2.62

K'daii Fireborn 2.57

Chaos Seige Giant 2.00

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Ironsworn 1.64




Here is the legend given to the voters:
5 – This choice is extremely powerful / under-costed
4 – A very competitive choice, good value for the points.
3 – An OK choice, not optimal but still decent
2 – This unit is below par, either underpowered or overcosted
1 – Complete rubbish, very difficult to find any use for it

I need to review this a couple of more times thoroughly, but I'm a bit shocked that Hobgoblins outrank the Chaos Dwarf Core choice...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I need to review this a couple of more times thoroughly, but I'm a bit shocked that Hobgoblins outrank the Chaos Dwarf Core choice...

That's one of the ones that surprises me too. Remember though, this is only based on people's opinions. The Fireborn are also ranked too lowly.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@Lizards of Renown here are the results of a survey that was completed on the Chaos-Dwarfs forum . Respondents were asked to rank each unit from 1 to 5. It is based on the votes of only 14 people, so make of it what you will, but it should give us a good starting off point. Some of the results are as expected, with a few small surprises here or there. I've rearranged the entries from best to worst:

Magma Cannon 4.50

K'daii Destroyer 4.43

Hellcannon 4.14

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher 3.93

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Castellan 3.43

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Prophet 3.36

Chaos Dwarf Deamonsmith Sorcerer 3.36

Bull Centaur Taur'ruk 3.21

Bale Taurus (mount) 3.21

Great Taurus (mount) 3.15

Giant Wolf (mount) 3.15

Hobgoblin Khan 3.00

Hobgoblin Cutthroats 2.93

Hobgoblin Wolf Raiders 2.93

Iron Daemon 2.71

Dreadquake Mortar 2.71

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard 2.64

Bull Centaur Renders 2.64

Lammasu (mount) 2.62

K'daii Fireborn 2.57

Chaos Seige Giant 2.00

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Ironsworn 1.64




Here is the legend given to the voters:
5 – This choice is extremely powerful / under-costed
4 – A very competitive choice, good value for the points.
3 – An OK choice, not optimal but still decent
2 – This unit is below par, either underpowered or overcosted
1 – Complete rubbish, very difficult to find any use for it

I was doing some research to find some Fireborn, but they're ranked pretty low here...

Do you agree that they are a bit crappy in your experience playing with them?

Same with Bull Centaurs.

I get it on the Chaos Siege Giant because of the potential fall over liabilities.

And how are the Ironsworn so low?!? They're only 14 points each.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I was doing some research to find some Fireborn, but they're ranked pretty low here...

Do you agree that they are a bit crappy in your experience playing with them?

I have yet to field my CD, but in my opinion the ranking is too low. We can see their performance in the Bonus Matches of the CC contest. They held their own pretty well (considering the field they are up against). If you put them into the right units, they will shred the opposition.

I think some of these ratings suffer from direct comparison to something similar but better in the list (even though that isn't the way they should be scored):

• Destroyer > Fireborn
• Hellcannon > Dreadquake Mortar
• Infernal Guard (core) > Ironsworn (special)

If the superior option was not available, I think each of these choices would have received higher ratings.

I haven't finished my matchups with the Bull Centaurs. Their measly 2 attacks does hurt them, but they do have their purposes.

And how are the Ironsworn so low?!? They're only 14 points eac

17 points.

Their major issue is that they come out of Special and not core like their Infernal Guard counterparts. As such, they are in direct competition with the Fireborn, Bull Centaurs, Iron Daemon... not to mention our heavy hitters: the Magma Cannon and the Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher.

They're not terrible but not game winners either.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, so @NIGHTBRINGER I've been doing some study (and re-study and re-re-study, etc. you know me ) on the Chaos Dwarf rulebook as well as making my Excel grid. Doing this grid is a nice exercise as it makes me look at every single detail of every unit and along the way I start concocting list ideas.

Definitely want to end up with two Destroyers. They are magnificent.

I'll definitely end up with at least one unit of Fireborn. I just think the Forgeworld models are epic. The definitely still seem useful, maybe in a low points list? Or as an addition to the Destroyer in a larger game?

It struck me as kind of odd that the Daemonsmith Sorcerer doesn't have access to the Lore of Hashut? Is that right? Or am I somehow reading this wrong?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I'll definitely end up with at least one unit of Fireborn. I just think the Forgeworld models are epic. The definitely still seem useful, maybe in a low points list? Or as an addition to the Destroyer in a larger game?

Just remember to take them in decent sized units. Minimum units are too susceptible to the Burning Bright special rule. You need them to arrive into combat at sufficient fighting capacity.

If played alongside a Destroyer, they serve as excellent cannon ball catchers (remember that if a Monstrous model is not killed by a cannon ball, the cannon ball stops and proceeds no further). Their forced re-rolls of wounds, 4+ ward save and 2 wounds, means that they have a decent chance of surviving the shot and protecting the Destroyer.

It struck me as kind of odd that the Daemonsmith Sorcerer doesn't have access to the Lore of Hashut? Is that right? Or am I somehow reading this wrong?

You are correct. Only the Sorcerer-Prophet has access to the Lore of Hashut.

He is such a great hero wizard though. For only 30 points more than a Skink Priest (for comparisons sake), you get:

• +2 WS
• +2 S (includes the bonus from his weapon)
• +2 T
• +1 A
• +3 Leadership (but does not have cold blooded)
• 4+ armour save (also a 5+ ward versus flaming attacks) and the subsequent ability to take magical armour (Skink Priest only has Scaly Skin 6+)
• magical attacks
• access to 3 lores of magic instead of 2
• ability to re-roll war machine dice! (and gets a LOS roll when near war machines)

Of course, he is much slower and more susceptible to miscasts, but I think he is very much worth his points (IMHO).

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Just remember to take them in decent sized units. Minimum units are too susceptible to the Burning Bright special rule. You need them to arrive into combat at sufficient fighting capacity.

If played alongside a Destroyer, they serve as excellent cannon ball catchers (remember that if a Monstrous model is not killed by a cannon ball, the cannon ball stops and proceeds no further). Their forced re-rolls of wounds, 4+ ward save and 2 wounds, means that they have a decent chance of surviving the shot and protecting the Destroyer.

Makes sense and is a good point. For some reason I thought they were M4, but doing my Excel grid made me see that this was wrong. M6 means they're pretty fast comparatively and so could easily move up without hampering the Destroyer too much.

You are correct. Only the Sorcerer-Prophet has access to the Lore of Hashut.

He is such a great hero wizard though. For only 30 points more than a Skink Priest (for comparisons sake), you get:

• +2 WS
• +2 S (includes the bonus from his weapon)
• +2 T
• +1 A
• +3 Leadership (but does not have cold blooded)
• 4+ armour save (also a 5+ ward versus flaming attacks) and the subsequent ability to take magical armour (Skink Priest only has Scaly Skin 6+)
• magical attacks
• access to 3 lores of magic instead of 2
• ability to re-roll war machine dice! (and gets a LOS roll when near war machines)

Of course, he is much slower and more susceptible to miscasts, but I think he is very much worth his points (IMHO).

Oh, I think it is a must-include purely for the war machine efficiency point. Put him with two Deathshrieker Rockets and all of a sudden you have a fairly efficient battery for not a lot of points.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Oh, I think it is a must-include purely for the war machine efficiency point. Put him with two Deathshrieker Rockets and all of a sudden you have a fairly efficient battery for not a lot of points.

Indeed. The character adds such great utility to the army. A good value in my opinion.

Plus... I need someone to hold onto my Chalice of Blood and Darkness!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Indeed. The character adds such great utility to the army. A good value in my opinion.

Plus... I need someone to hold onto my Chalice of Blood and Darkness!

Oh yeah, caddies for sure.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I'll definitely end up with at least one unit of Fireborn. I just think the Forgeworld models are epic.

What are your thoughts on the Forge World Bull Centaur Renders models? I think they are even better than the Fireborn (model wise).

It struck me as kind of odd that the Daemonsmith Sorcerer doesn't have access to the Lore of Hashut?

What are your thoughts on the Lore of Hashut? (other than Ashstorm being perhaps the single greatest spell in Warhammer)

Oh yeah, caddies for sure.

They do it all. Daemonsmiths, thy name is versatility.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

What are your thoughts on the Forge World Bull Centaur Renders models? I think they are even better than the Fireborn (model wise).

They're pretty cool. Not cool enough that I'm willing to pay the prices ongoing for them currently... I'm fairly happy with the anointed Bull Centaurs from the Lost Kingdom range.

What are your thoughts on the Lore of Hashut? (other than Ashstorm being perhaps the single greatest spell in Warhammer)

Overall, I think it's good, but not excellent. The lore attribute, IMO, is quite weak as it depends on others spells being cast and any old-timer knows that the number of spells actually successfully cast per turn is usually pretty minimal.

Hatred signature spell is good for a 6+. Especially as one to throw in to tempt some dispel dice out of the opponent who is waiting for your big one.

Burning wrath is too short for it to be good in my opinion. 8" is literally charge distance. Still, it's D6 S6 hits so not to be sniffed at. Upgraded one as 2D6 is cool, considering that Shems Burning Gaze only gets S6 on the powered up version.

Dark Subjugation is cool. I like it because it's cheap (8+) and strategical. Cast signature spell and this on a combat, tips it your direction (or gets it ready for a Hellcannon shot).

Curse of Hashut is okay, but it is just like the Death spell which I don't like as you have to first do 2D6 minus toughness, THEN do a wound on a 4+. It has no armour saves so still not bad, but only targets a single model. Good sniping.

I hadn't really read the Ash Storm. Great strategical spell here as you automatically cut the movement down and if they do move then auto-wound on 1 for every model. Awesome if you combine with Dark subjugation and signature. Now a combat wholly swings in your favour.

Hell Hammer is okay. But the random range and the initiative test means limited workability with a lot of armies.

Flames of Azgorh is pretty epic. Template direct damage spell that is S6? And model directly underneath also has to do Toughness test to not be slain outright? Pretty deadly.

I think out of all of them, the lower priced combat affecting spells are my favourite. Especially if I had Flames of Azgorh. I'd make sure my opponent knows just what that can do, then cast my lower price spells as he hoards his dispel dice.

They do it all. Daemonsmiths, thy name is versatility.

Shakespeare rewritten. "A hammer by any other name will smash as well."

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl do you know of any UK supplies who still do Forgeworld K'Daai Fireborn?

I've only been able to find them in the USA, but it's going to be a complete b****d to get them over here...

The closest I found was this but I don't really like the miniatures...

@NIGHTBRINGER it's a vain hope, but do you know of any UK supplies?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@NIGHTBRINGER it's a vain hope, but do you know of any UK supplies?

nope... I do not