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8th Ed. Characters in Chariots

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The Omen

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Can anyone give me a simple version of how a character in chariot works?

Based on the interpretation of the rule book that I've been able to work out then the character gets +1 armour save for being on a chariot, and also get the chariots wounds and toughness (almost certainly higher than the model) - since it has both the chariot and ridden monster special rules. You even suffer the chariots higher toughness and wounds in CC and in challenges!!!!!

This may not sound too bad - but I recently came up against an arch lector on the special empire chariot thing and he held up half my army for the whole game, since he had a 1+ save + a 4+ ward + T5 and 5 wounds.

Surely this can't be how the rules are designed to work - or can it?
 
sounds about right, keep in mind they are rather expensive and have some restrictions on movement and get destroyed if they run into terrain.
 
The Omen said:
This may not sound too bad - but I recently came up against an arch lector on the special empire chariot thing and he held up half my army for the whole game, since he had a 1+ save + a 4+ ward + T5 and 5 wounds.

Surely this can't be how the rules are designed to work - or can it?
Click to expand...
Yup, you did it wrong, when chariots and monsters with characters use the same rules, therefore in CC each fights and can be fought with seperately and they use their own WS, S, T,A and W.
 
Thats what I thought, but the 2 rules seem to contradict each other.

The rule for a character in a chariot says it has the unit type of "Chariot" which states "The Wounds, Thoughness and armour saves of the crew and the beasts are NEVER used - hits are resolved against the chariots Wounds, Toughness and Armour Save."

But below that it says you use the monster and rider special rules which say in CC you can target the character itself.

So based on the wording we played that you can target the character - but you still use the T and W of the chariot, which seems to be how it is worded (though I don't think we should have been using a 1+ save as that was the armour of the character and not the chariot - the save should have been 5+ with the 4+ ward)

Seems a rather poorly worded section in general really.

It does mention that the chariot doesn't take a monster reaction test if the character is slain - which implys that they do see a situation in which the character can die without the chariot, but I fail to see how if the character gains the chariot special rule as mentioned above.
 
The Omen said:
Thats what I thought, but the 2 rules seem to contradict each other.

The rule for a character in a chariot says it has the unit type of "Chariot" which states "The Wounds, Thoughness and armour saves of the crew and the beasts are NEVER used - hits are resolved against the chariots Wounds, Toughness and Armour Save."
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It says that about the model not the character himself (who retains his own type for the purpoces of killing blow), in essence the charracter and chariot work exactly like a monster (aside for monster reaction) for the sole reason that GW said so.
 
GW have confirmed this, do you have a place they confirm it? Is it in the FAQ? We did look in there but couldn;t find anything.

I'm glad that they have, but it does state in the Rule book on page 105 that their troop type is chariot, considering that the only thing about troop type chariot is the fact that they mix stats then that whole section doesn't seem to make any sense at all, it'd have been easy just to say that the chariot counts as a ridden monster and ignore the whole part about it have a troop type of chariot.

Apologies if I'm being stupid, but I'm just trying to anticipate my opponantes arguments next time.

The wording in the character section implys that the Chariot rule comes first, and then it takes the rules of ridden monster where there is no contridiction with the chariot rule, "A chariot mount OTHERWISE follows the rules for ridden monsters"
 
If you don't wanna read the brick then i can't help you son.
Feel free to call them altho there's no telling what the phone monkeys will tell you.
 
The brick? I have no idea what that even is, what is it and where can I find it to read it?

I did read the FAQ, but I can't see anything in there that says if you target a character in a chariot you use his own stats, and as I said the Chariot troop type states that you ALWAYS use the T, W + Armoue save of the chariot. It doesn't say you always use them except in a challenge, but if it is in the FAQ then I can't find it, I've just read through it again and still can't find anything that suggests that.
 
The "Brick" he is referring to is the rule book, its big and red and looks vaguely like a brick.

The chariot rules for characters are clearly defined on page 105 under the "Character Mounts" section of the book. You don't need to look at a faq for this.
 
The character almost certainly doesn't take the T and W of the chariot, otherwise TKs would get nerfed ( their chariots are T4, W3, whereas a tomb king on foot has T5 and W4!)
 
TheRolfgar said:
The "Brick" he is referring to is the rule book, its big and red and looks vaguely like a brick.

The chariot rules for characters are clearly defined on page 105 under the "Character Mounts" section of the book. You don't need to look at a faq for this.
Click to expand...

But thats what I'm saying, on page 105 of the rule book it clearly says that they get the chariot troop type, and the chariot troop type don't use the riders stats, they use the chariots - thats what it says in the rules and try as I might I don't see anything o say that characters don't use the chariots stats instead of their own, the only thing I can find is the wording that says they have the chariot troop type.

It might be that GW don't intend to use the chariots stats, but unfortunately my gaming group always play rules as written so if I can find something that says you don't use the chariots stats then I'm kinda stuck.
 
The Omen said:
TheRolfgar said:
The "Brick" he is referring to is the rule book, its big and red and looks vaguely like a brick.

The chariot rules for characters are clearly defined on page 105 under the "Character Mounts" section of the book. You don't need to look at a faq for this.
Click to expand...

But thats what I'm saying, on page 105 of the rule book it clearly says that they get the chariot troop type, and the chariot troop type don't use the riders stats, they use the chariots - thats what it says in the rules and try as I might I don't see anything o say that characters don't use the chariots stats instead of their own, the only thing I can find is the wording that says they have the chariot troop type.

It might be that GW don't intend to use the chariots stats, but unfortunately my gaming group always play rules as written so if I can find something that says you don't use the chariots stats then I'm kinda stuck.
Click to expand...
The rules book may look like a brick but it is far bigger and heavier!

Try reading the entire two paragraph section on pg 105, the first paragraph says that the troop type is chariot, but the second paragraph? It says that all the rules (except one) of ridden monsters apply to chariots when used as character mounts! This means you also have to read another bit of the rules (that spread on to pg 106) and lo and behold it says that characters and their mounts can be attacked seperately, the mount using the mount's stats and the character using the character's stats.
 
Unless I have a miss print in my book it states in the first paragraph that that they have the chariot troop type, and in the second paragraph it states "A Chariot mount OTHERWISE follows the rules for ridden monsters"

To me that means that it counts as a ridden monster only where that doesn't contradict with the chariot rules - hence the key word of otherwise - thats how we played it in our game and how, after many discussions at the gaming group it has beeen decided the rule should be played (again we play RAW and not RAI due to too many arguments over the "intension" of the rule).

It's possible that our group is playing it wrong, but I still maintain that the wording of the rules are such that the ridden monster rule only come into play when they don't contradict the chariot rules.

So yes, you can target the rider - as per the monster and rider special rules (since there is nothing in the chariot tules that say you can't) - but they still get to use the chariots T, W and Armour as per the chariot rules (which override the rider and monster rule).

I'm almost certain this isn't what was intended, but it is the way they are written.
 
The key that you are missing is that the Chariot rules state that "The Wounds, Toughness and armour saves of the crew and beasts are never used."

Crew and beasts only.

When a character joins the chariot, it does not become part of the crew, so this rule doesn't apply. Therefore, characters follow the Ridden Monster rules which state that the rider and monster fight using their own characteristics. I don't see any contradiction.
 
Thats a good point, we've been working on the assumption he gets classed as crew but it's certainly something to bring up. Everyone has agreed that the rest of the wording does imply that you can kill the character seperate from the chariot so if I can give a resonable argument I think they will take it.
 
Ah you got in before me MI_Tiger, thats the point I was going to make.

That the rule stop you from attacking the crew seperately from the chariot however when it is taken as a mount for a character they do not become part of the crew. Therefore you may attack the chariot with its stats or the character using their own stats
 
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