Discussion Communication with Pathetic Warmbloods

[pendrake]

That said, I'd like to stake a claim to an unused letter of the alphabet.

Solution P: What warm bloods? Whatsa warmblood?
(There are no warmbloods in a story to speak to — it's worked in two out of two stories so far.)

Oooops. Make that one of two.

solutions away from your one, P for Pendrake. And I'm sure there was something being fought against in the Monument.

Good point. It was those foul ratmen. This is what I get for not paying close attention to fluff. Not even my own!

But yes, Solution A was in full effect in The Monument. It was mostly ranged shooting, but that still qualifies as case A, I think.
~~~~~~~~
Which letter does solely Vexillogical communication fall under? Plain flags of certain solid colours.
Red — no quarter
White — truce / parley / surrender
Black — plague

 

[pendrake]

Hmmm. Ponders.

Looks like use of solid color flags would be a mix of Solution F with Solution I. Do flags need adding to case F in the original post?

 

[spawning of Bob]

Overthinking added

I don't recall anything written by any Great Wordsmiths from the Citadel (GW/Citadel) where they ever dealt with this issue much. It is hard to think of any possible means you have not covered so far. Very thorough.

The only WHFB novel I've read is Headtaker, where dwarfs, Skaven and greenskins seemed to converse effortlessly. I could read the story part of the End Times books I paid for, but I think that would leave me more irritated than informed.

However, what are all the named "official" WHFB languages?

Reikspeil
Khazalid
Saurian
? Bretonnian
? Queekish
? Norskan
Probably only one Elvish

I assume Tilean, Arabyan and Estalian and Cathayese must exist.

 

[pendrake]

Overthinking added



The only WHFB novel I've read is Headtaker, where dwarfs, Skaven and greenskins seemed to converse effortlessly. I could read the story part of the End Times books I paid for, but I think that would leave me more irritated than informed.

However, what are all the named "official" WHFB languages?

Reikspeil
Khazalid
Saurian
? Bretonnian
? Queekish
? Norskan
Probably only one Elvish

I assume Tilean, Arabyan and Estalian and Cathayese must exist.

JMO but I think "Bretonnian" the word applies to all things from Bretonnia, but not so much the language. They were just an adjunct of what became The Empire a few editions ago, alternative allied forces.

At most/worst Reikspiel vs whatever they speak in Bretonnia is like Frankish vs Old German.

Reikspiel / Bretsprech.

 

[Fhanados]

I know older army books referred to the "Dark Tongue", the language spoken by Chaos followers. I believe it was spoken by both Beastmen and Warriors and could be used to communicate with Daemons. It could be the same as the whatever Norse speak, but I recall them being distinct. I feel like "Dark Tongue" is like picking up a second language that Chaos followers from all backgrounds could use to communicate regardless of origin.

I don't actually own the Beastmen or Warriors books so I could be totally wrong.

 

[pendrake]

I know older army books referred to the "Dark Tongue", the language spoken by Chaos followers. I believe it was spoken by both Beastmen and Warriors and could be used to communicate with Daemons. It could be the same as the whatever Norse speak, but I recall them being distinct. I feel like "Dark Tongue" is like picking up a second language that Chaos followers from all backgrounds could use to communicate regardless of origin.

I don't actually own the Beastmen or Warriors books so I could be totally wrong.

I have some of those older books and you remember correctly, there is even a script. It might be called Dark Speech instead of The Dark Tongue. I will try to look for it.

I think the Norscans speak... ...Norscan?

 

[spawning of Bob]

Hey @RoseThorn what have you got Hjeki speaking? What is your source for languages?
(Try to keep @Kcibrihp-Esurc out of this discussion - he really needs to work on his geometry.)

 

[Scalenex]

Read Orc and Goblin appearance, they always seem to be able to speak to anyone. Basically whatever language the dominant area speaks they seem to speak the Cockney/Caveman-esque version of it.

So the way I see it, Greenskins either

1) Written by lazy GW writers who just don't care about linguistic realism
2) Are geniuses that learn languages quickly but avoid the finer details
3) Have some magical ability with languages. Either they automatically know all languages (sort of) or the nature of their birth by spores mean they pick up the local language at "birth" through magical metaphorical osmosis.

I'm torn between (1) and (3). Either Greenskins have their own language (or languages) or they pick up a bastardized version of whatever language is spoken around them.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Read Orc and Goblin appearance, they always seem to be able to speak to anyone. Basically whatever language the dominant area speaks they seem to speak the Cockney/Caveman-esque version of it.

So the way I see it, Greenskins either

1) Written by lazy GW writers who just don't care about linguistic realism
2) Are geniuses that learn languages quickly but avoid the finer details
3) Have some magical ability with languages. Either they automatically know all languages (sort of) or the nature of their birth by spores mean they pick up the local language at "birth" through magical metaphorical osmosis.

I'm torn between (1) and (3). Either Greenskins have their own language (or languages) or they pick up a bastardized version of whatever language is spoken around them.

I'd say 3 but not a magical ability more of adaptability, I suspect Skaven to be the same as they both centre around a skavenger existence.

 

[Killer Angel]

Read Orc and Goblin appearance, they always seem to be able to speak to anyone. Basically whatever language the dominant area speaks they seem to speak the Cockney/Caveman-esque version of it.

(snip)

I'm torn between (1) and (3). Either Greenskins have their own language (or languages) or they pick up a bastardized version of whatever language is spoken around them.

It's both.
(1) is probably the real reason, and (3) is one of the probable explanations, if you care about verisimilitude.

 

[Fhanados]

Another option for Greenskins would be that their brains never grow out of that early child stage of development. Anyone with kids can tell you that young children pick up language VERY quickly, and our ability to learn and retain new language skills drops sharply during adolescence and adulthood. Children are also impulsive, emotional, irrational and are quick to overreact to things. All these traits are common in Greenskins too.

This doesn't mean that Greenskins are stupid (well they are... kind of) or incapable of being functioning adults, they still learn from their experience and are capable of being quite cunning. It does go some way to explain some of their behavioral quirks and give a plausible explanation for some of the more obviously stupid decisions that an otherwise competent Orruk warlord may make, and gives a reason for their language skills. They only have a very bare-bones language of their own, and simply pick up the native language of whatever region they occupy.

Or you could go for the whole "greenskins are psychic but too dumb to realise it" theory that seems to be popular in 40k. Personally I think it's a cop-out, the Ork equivalent of "a wizard did it", but a lot of people seem to have jumped on board with that. Not sure how prevalent it is in WHFB/AoS fanbases though, I only dwell in Lustria!

 

[spawning of Bob]

I was thinking of the child language development thing for O+G as, well.

 

[Warden]

As threatened, I am going to collate options and examples of means of communication between Lizardmen and Lesser Races. The intent is for this to be indexed into the Lustriapedia, the L-O writer's resource.

The Problem: Lizardmen / Seraphon come from culturally and geographically different origins to the other races, and if we don't mind getting technical, would have very different vocal apparatus to mammal based creatures. How can they communicate?

Analysis includes possible "logical" mechanisms, and pros and cons from a writing perspective. Cons may include the effort of explaining it and/or the amount of suspension of disbelief it will cost you if you don't.

Solution A: If you communicate using your spear alone, your average Warmblood will get the point. (Don't even bother trying to use a shared language)
Mechanisms: Cultural isolation / they are just animals anyway / If he is the enemy of my enemy, I don't need to ask questions / shooting fireballs or blowdarts at range is probably this /
Writing Pros: No explanation required / can make the antagonist alien and scary /
Writing Cons: antagonist's motivations can only be guessed at /
The Coward by @Killer Angel
The Ghosts We Have by @Oldblood Itzahuan
The Monument by @Pestdrake

Solution B: Make at least a bit of effort to use sign language or such.
Mechanisms: Universality of gestures (shaking weapon to challenge, pointing, submissive posture ) / intelligent beings improvising to communicate /
Writing Pros: requires show don't tell / can emphasise common ground between very different folk / can set up plot relevant miscommunications
Writing Cons: a saurian smile being interpreted by a human as a happy look. If a dog smiles at you it is about to take a chunk of flesh / difficult with complex ideas /
Examples:
The Coward by @Killer Angel - a rat head being interpreted as equivalent to a bunch of flowers by saurians
Cold Commerce (story 2) by @spawning of Bob
Cities of Gold (story 5) by @lordkingcrow

Solution F: Use of written word / signs / diagrams / maps
Mechanisms: point to existing text, artwork, statues or friezes / create on demand with normal writing tools / improvise on demand (mud map) / a scholar is fluent in the written language of the counterpart species / flags or banners like running up the colours on a pirate ship / semaphore
Writing Pros: can get more spatial or contextual info than gesture / use of text can convey meaning even if the writer can't physically make the sounds of the language / can set up plot relevant misinterpretation of records or artwork /
Writing Cons: may require a stereotypical nerdy scholar with coke bottle glasses and a pasty complexion / open to misinterpretation /
Examples:
Paranoia by @Otzi'mandias

Solution G: Lizard / lizards make the effort to learn to speak a heavily accented warmblood tongue.
Mechanisms: significant trading or slaving relationship / every temple has a linguistic scholar skink / character specific cross cultural experience / a space frog pressed the language into my head. But no one told him Esperanto is dead. Stupid space frog /
Writing Pros: easy or plausible to set up / allows for plot-important or comedic miscommunication /
Writing Cons: may need a nerdy scholar / if every single lizard is a speaker, you need a different explanation / may be implausible depending on how isolationist your lizards are / may require excessssive use of "S"s to portray character voice / There are lot of languages to know and sub-dialects could not all be studied /
Examples:
In the Serpent's Eye by @Hyperborean
Pirates of the Dragon Isles by @Warden

Solution H: Warmblood speaks accented Lizard Tongue
Mechanisms: significant trading or slaving relationship / every temple has a linguistic scholar skink / character specific cross cultural experience / a space frog pressed the language into my head. Saluton kiel vi fartas bastardo rano. /
Writing Pros: I would get them to learn our language and make them pay for the lessons / easy or plausible to set up /
Writing Cons: implausible if your lizards just kill everyone instantly anyway / character voices of broken speech can come across as racist (this means you Jar Jar) or ignorant or unintelligent /
Examples:
The Fall of Turochitan by @Scalenex
Divided We Fall by @Scalenex (Vampire and Banshee)
The Beginning by @Fhanados
The Blood Dish by @spawning of Bob (I hated doing this to the Amaxon "primitives" because it seems like a hack stereotype of an indigenous culture, but doing anything else would have taken too many not plot advancey words.)

Solution M: Use a third party translator
Mechanisms: Someone must have a trading / diplomatic / slaving relationship with the other race.
Writing Pros: very easy to plausibly set up / adds the spice of the interpreter posssibly having their own agenda / allows double miscommunication potential and lying for various motives / comedic possibilities galore /
Writing Cons:
Examples:
Blackadder - The Queen of Spain's Beard by @Rowan Atkinson and @Richard Curtis

I'll start.




This is the most realistic of all of them. In my opinion it's an adequate way to handle violent action based stories but it doesn't allow as much depth. Whether the Lizardmen are the protagonists or the antagonists, the antagonist is just to provide conflict. That means almost all of your characterization is focused on the hopes, fears, successes and failures. If communication with the other side is this limited, this is not that different from a Man vs. Nature story. In fact, I would fighting Lizardmen in Lustria would feel like fighting against nature itself.




You might still have violence but in this case, merely establishing communication becomes the conflict. It might not be the main conflict of the story, but establishing basic communication with the other side whomever they may be becomes one of the challenges the protagonist must overcome.




If this is hand waved you basically have an author lazily trying to hand wave past the communication issue but I haven't seen anyone on L-O treat this lazily. If you have two telepathic characters talking, the author is basically telling you. "These are powerful beings who exist on a level that's beyond your understanding." That fits the bill with Slann and Daemons or gods and Old Ones.

When you have a telepathic creature speaking to a non-telepath, it's an invasion of privacy at the very least. If not a violent violation of the mind. it also highlights the disparity of power. You can really tell the telepath is stooping to speak to this lowly worm because their own lowly words are too crude for one such as the telepath.




I'm not sure this deserves it's own letter. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who did it on L-O. Reading minds is BIG, so hopefully any use of this treats telepathy devices as the dangerous McGuffins they are.




This is a pretty common staple of fantasy and sci-fit. It does not have as much potential for storytelling conflict around the communication itself (though you can make it a cornerstone of the story if you work at it.). It's a good way to quickly overcome the language barrier to allow in depth verbal interactions without taxing the reader's suspension of disbelief.




Pretty much everything I said about Solution B applies here. If Bob reorganizing the lettering again (please don't!) I would put these adjacent. The only minor difference is given how so many people in a quasi-medieval setting are illiterate, this style of communication implies a slightly higher level of sophistication. Animals communicate with gestures, but they don't draw pictures. While the exact opposite is true in "Paranoia" I would say writing and pictures usually implies less violence and more understanding between the communicators.




This is a good way to split the difference between the pros and cons of the others. It's realistic, because people learn new languages in the real world. If your story requires the characters to communicate clearly, make the lizards fluent. If your story requires misunderstanding make them hear or say something erroneously. You can build character by picking something telling for what was misspoke or miss-heard.




The same stuff I said above applies here, but the Lizardmen are SLIGHTLY more likely to pick up warmblooded tongues than warmbloods are likely to pick up Saurian. You might have some odd High Elf or Dark Elf scholars that keep records from the times of the Old Ones but their Saurian would probably be unintelligible based on translations of translations of transcriptions of transcriptions where the original writers only had a tiny connection to Saurian.. I studied German for a number of years. One time I ran across a crew of Dutch. I thought "This sounds like German, but I can't understand what they are saying!" I imagine Skinks would feel the same way hearing Elf scholars of Hoeth try to speak in their specialty "dead" language.

For the most part the outside world doesn't want to learn about the Lizardmen. They either want to leave them alone or steal their stuff. So far, except for Lord Renliss, every single non-Lizardmen who knows some Saurian is because at some point one of the First wanted to share their language, not because one of the Prodigal races wanted to learn it. The only real incentive to learn Saurian is to make a grab for the Lizardmen's power and lore, not treasure. That fits Lord Renliss to a "t." Also the Fimir in my old short story piece "Chameleons in the City of Mists" but Fimir aren't really "pathetic warmbloods" are they?




They not only did this in Lord of the Rings, but they did it in Orson Scott Card's universe. So everyone has their own language, but they also have a common shared tongue. This is intrinsic to most D&D worlds and the Star Wars Galaxy.

The Lord of the Rings universe, every race shares the same history and gods more or less. On Ender's Earth and the colonization that follows, Earth was basically ruled by one government and they needed a common language of the realm. Most D&D worlds lazily handwave Common into the setting. Star Wars initially used a lazy hand wave then they built up the metaplot to have most interplanetary travel spearheaded by Humans, who evolved on nearly adjacent star systems, Correlia, Alderaan, Chandrilla, and Coruscant. That's Humans are so wide spread and their language spread even further.

The Warhammer Fantasy World is NOT unified. It's whole point is disparate cultures evolving independently and hating everyone else's guts. Every nation, every race has it's own gods, heck every tribe or city has it's own gods. There's not enough universal desire to communicate with all to put forth to work to implement a common tongue. Since in Age of Sigmar different people now live on entirely different planets I don't see a Common Tongue evolving very fast in the new status quo, everyone still hates everyone else. Though the interactions have become complex enough that more people are putting forth the effort to be multilingual, I just don't see the cooperation necessary to implement this.

In general I'm biased against this solution. It's so unrealistic to me, I find magic more likely. I'm extra biased against this solution in WHF settings, but I don't want to tell anyone they are wrong. I can even dip my toe in the water here. A case can be made that a tiny number of things are universal. I could buy the idea that every race and nation in the WHF world has nodding mean yes and shaking one's head mean no. You can branch out from there. Pointed fingers, eyeball etc. There is probably enough of a common origin for all the various races that there are plenty of cognates. English says "cat,' German says "eine Katze." Going out further, English says "dog," German says "ein Hund." Okay so they don't sound alike, but you clearly hear "hound" right so it kind of makes sense. Against my wishes, Bob made "mahrlect" a universal swear word in his literary metaverse.




I don't like this solution either BUT I like this better than a shared Common tongue everyone has a second language. If you have a common tongue, either people won't use it because they don't want to talk much or people will use it so much it replaces their original tongue. While not very realistic this is very convenient. If communication is not a concern you get to the action that much faster. I can't imagine K-E's pieces holding together if people had to stop to get translators every five minutes.

It's also handy for short stories. Every sentence should either build character or advance the plot. In a short story, 100 words (or more) to explain how the characters are talking is just distracting noise. Likewise if you want to start a story with men talking around a campfire you probably want to skip "And then Ted built a pyramid of sticks and caught some tinder on a spark. After a ten minutes of work feeding successively larger sticks, they finally had enough of a flame to cook on." Start with the fire already there! Especially now that the consensus is pointing towards a preference. That's not to say imperfect communication cannot build character or advance a plot, I'm just saying it needs to be done carefully.

FANTASTIC Thread! Took me a while to read through it all, I have earmarked it for later use. Great reference for later stories.

Looking at some of the real-world interactions of the Spanish and the New-Worlders long time ago, the mostly used translators. The Spanish had over the course of just a decade able to establish working "relations" with most of the natives, being able to communicate at first through sign language and eventually translators. The Franciscans/clergy were also helpful in this regard, desiring to either A) learn the language of the natives in order to teach them the one true faith, or B) though they were savages and made them learn Spanish and then teach them the one true faith. When Cortes/other conquistadors set out on their expeditions they did so with many native allies, using translators. Cortes is even rumored to have a native mistress who doubled as his very influential translator when they encountered the Aztecs. Similar things happened by the time Pizzaro went up the mountains to steal the Incan's gold, he used translators and levies of local natives to bolster his troop numbers.

In terms of Lustria and Warhammer, this doesn't translate as well simply because the majority of the continent is uninhabited. The Lizardmen language is so unscrutable it is difficult for an outsider to master unless they devote years of study. It has only been within the last few DECADES that we have been able to translate the Mayan glyphs in order to understand them! (Solution H: Warmblood speaks accented Lizard Tongue and Solution F: Use of written word / signs / diagrams / maps).

That being said, in my opinion their are other ways around this, and these are the two I like the best:

Solution G: Lizard / lizards make the effort to learn to speak a heavily accented warmblood tongue. Like stated previously, temple cities keep some skink priests trained in the arts of the lesser-beings languages. The priests don't know why they do it anymore, other than it is always done this way. Almost instinctual. Every once in a while it comes in handy when they encounter some raiding enemies. More often they just go back to using their spears (see default Solution A: If you communicate using your spear alone, your average Warmblood will get the point. (Don't even bother trying to use a shared language)

Solution M: Use a third party translator. Native translators. In previous versions of the game their were pygmies living in Lustria or the Southlands. It is plausible that they speak/understand a bastardized version of the language of the Old Ones. I also would like to think their are human tribal groups living in Lustria (mostly cannibals) that if persuaded to work with other human adventurers/working as their slaves they could be used to talk between them. I like this idea the best, but in most cases Lizardmen will probably default to Solution A because most of them are convinced the warm-bloods "shouldn't be here" in the first place.

I've found the language barrier in the Warhammer World quite a challenge in the past. Skaven admittedly seem to have it easy since by being so spread out and having the scary ability to learn and adapt faster than most races, they often (at least their leaders or intellectuals) seem to gain a grasp of most languages (albeit usually haltingly, poorly accented, and with terrible grammar.) Though I will usually state what language the Skaven in question is trying to speak (Estalian, Bretonnian, Reikspiel, Orcish, Khazalid, e.t.c.) I wasn't sure what passes for human kingdoms and language in AoS, hence why it was just stated to be "human tongue" (i'd guess Reikspiel as it is the closest thing to a common tongue given the relative power of the Empire and the setting. However, this does lead to the question: why did my protagonist know "human tongue" in the first place? Heheheh.)

Something I find odd is that there's never much mention on different accents in Skaven Queekish, despite their race having covered much of the Old World. I know some Eshinites have more Mandarin styled names, but it doesn't really seem to seep much into their speech. I guess my own Warlock Engineer Tkull (a tongue-in-cheek reference to the inventor of the seed drill and the late 60s folk rock band) is stated to be from Albion and pretty much is a sarcastic Malakai Makaisson who constantly irritates my Seer, but is both too difficult to be killed off and is too useful for the Seer to want to kill him (that and the two make great Bloodbowl-esque hosts!)

Additionally, in another short story i've had a Chaos Dwarf speak a dark tongued Khazalid to his Hobgoblin servant to translate into Orcish for the Skaven translator to translate it into Queekish (mostly because the Dwarf wanted to annoy them after they tried to speak to him directly using a terrible excuse for Khazalid.) Surprisingly the translations seem to mostly hold up in the exchange, though the Hobgoblin does get confused by the term "breeders".

But yes, for Lizzies I can imagine it's quite a challenge considering how distant they are from other civilisations in the Old World. AoS you have, I guess, the whole imparted knowledge from the Slann.

I really like the idea of a Chaos Dwarf using translators SPECIFICALLY to upset his diplomatic opponents. Aside from being incredibly nasty, just like a Chaos Dwarf, must make for a great story to increase the tension.

This has been a very interesting discussion. I don't recall anything written by any Great Wordsmiths from the Citadel (GW/Citadel) where they ever dealt with this issue much. It is hard to think of any possible means you have not covered so far. Very thorough.

That said, I'd like to stake a claim to an unused letter of the alphabet.

Solution P: What warm bloods? Whatsa warmblood?
(There are no warmbloods in a story to speak to — it's worked in two out of two stories so far.)

Great Wordsmiths!!

 

[n810]

^ the Amazons live in Lustria, and have a little contact with the Lizardmen.
(might know some basic saurian)

Also there was a story about Marco Columbo, where he spoke with a priest that knew some English.

 

[tom ndege]

got to give this on a closer look later... Quiet interesting here! Never really thought about that... As I think know I imagine, that there is at least one priest in Lizardmen society for every known language.. So Lizardmen are in case able to communicate with any race in the warhammer world ... It might be that if there is no frequent contact between Lizards and other races (which is the case for most races), that Lizardmen speak a very ancient version of the language... Also I think that some languages are only know as written languages by Lizardmen... So Lizardmen could be able to write a letter to the emperor or so quite easily, but it would take some effort to talk to him... (except for a Slann, who has the telepathic ability to communicate with ANY species that's clever enough. )...

 

[spawning of Bob]

Yes, it's worth thinking about, even just to choose which details you will choose to ignore. I've used language barrier as a major plot point more than once (so has Scalenex), and been careful to have an explanation of communicationon in the back of my mind on other occasions.

The list here was always meant to be a toolbox - select the appropriate tool for the writing task you have at hand, and have less people saying "hey, that didn't make sense" later.