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8th Ed. Community Codex & Confusing Codex Rules

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Jungle Swarm

Whatwecee

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Hey guys, I have been a long-term lurker and I have finally thrown an account together. I have been playing Lizardmen for three editions now. I started back when sacred spawning(s) were still a thing.

I have been reading about the fate of the lizards from the Thanquol books and I think its epic. I am not impressed with how many of the Slann went out but I could not be happier with how hard Kroak, Tehenhauin, Chakax and Kroq-Gar handled things.

I understand there are plenty of plot problems. I do not think we are any worse off (plot-hole wise) than the elves that continuously fight gigantic wars despite being a dying race etc.

I saw the rumour mill has been running and people are suggesting everything from the fact that lizards may be finished as a playable race, to us being forced into allied books and even the possibility of Warhammer Fantasy being finished as a whole. I do not think GW is that stupid but someone made an excellent point that if GW were to spin off LM it would likely be picked up by the community. This would be done by community sculptors, lore builders etc.
I happen to be a big fan of writing and I enjoy making scenarios, testing rule sets etc. I have played as LM for a while and I think I have a good sense of what they represent and how they play.

I am wondering if anyone would be interested in a fan-developed codex. I would like to make one and put it out for the community! At this point I am not interested in revolutionizing the wheel and I do not have plans for lore changes, special characters etc. What I would like to do though is address some questionable parts (grey areas) of the codex and make appropriate changes and balances. I guess this could be like a community FAQ. This would be for 8th edition rules obviously.

My friend plays as Tomb Kings and he was so dissatisfied with the current TK codex that I made him a ‘house-rule’ one that is more competitive when we play and he really enjoys it.

I have some ideas of my own for small codex changes but I do not have anywhere near the knowledge some of you guys have when it comes to rules etc. If you know of something in the current LM codex that is really dumb, does not make sense etc. please tell me and if you have an appropriate solution please provide it!

I realize I do not have any pull within the Lustrian community or Warhammer Fantasy obviously but I would like your guy’s insight all the same even if I am the only one interested in using it.

I apologize if this isn't the forum for this, I'd consider these to be house rules though.

Thanks!
 
Post away!

I you do want a unit or some other aspect of the army to be identical to the current army book, just say "as the current army book" as opposed to retyping what is there. ESPECIALLY points cost cause GW gets angry at websites that don't enforce that rule.

Also it simplifies things if you don't retype things.

So hypothetically.

Saurus Warriors, stats and points cost as army book with the following exceptions:

-May swap shield for additional hand weapon
-May add one Mark of the Old Ones per model. The entire unit must have the same Mark
Mark of Chotek 2 points per model
Mark of Huanchi 1 point per model
etc

Also for formatting, I think it's easier to read if you write the stat abbreviation before the number rather than trying to line up coloumns because the formatting is lost in translation on this forum server. The top one is slightly more readable

Kaitar M4 WS5 BS0 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld9

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Kaitar 4 5 0 4 4 2 5 3 9
 
I'm going to wait and see what happens in the coming days before getting too into this, but I certainly have some ideas.

Kcibrihp-Esurc said:
Tiq'tac'to being able to join units of Terradons!
Click to expand...

Ditto. Skink Chiefs (and Tic-Tac), when mounted on a Terradon, may join units of Terradons. When mounted on a Ripper, they may join units of Rippers.

Sacred Spawnings to allow more specialized and versatile Saurus, with cost settled in pts/model rather pts/unit.

Dark Elves, High Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarves, and even EMPIRE have 7+ units that can take magic banners (or runic, for Dwarves). We have 1. So let's have one unit of Saurus per army be allowed to take a banner, as well as Saurus Cold One Riders. Maybe even a unit of Skinks?
 
Lawot said:
Sacred Spawnings to allow more specialized and versatile Saurus, with cost settled in pts/model rather pts/unit.
Click to expand...

That's been on wish list for ages, so yeah. Sacred Spawning need to come back.

I'm not sure about points cost, but I would support:

Chotec: Frenzy
Sotec: Stubborn (this one needs limitations on mixed units to prevent abuse)
Tlaxcotl: +1 Ld
Tepoc: Extra spell for Skink Priests, MR 2 for units, or alternatively it could let PF units restrain themselves without a Skink.
Huanchi: Skink Skirmishers may Scout
Old Ones: +1 wound, characters only
Tzunki: +1 BS for Skinks, +2 I for Sauri

Probably not all seven.


Lawot said:
Dark Elves, High Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarves, and even EMPIRE have 7+ units that can take magic banners (or runic, for Dwarves). We have 1. So let's have one unit of Saurus per army be allowed to take a banner, as well as Saurus Cold One Riders. Maybe even a unit of Skinks?
Click to expand...
[/quote]

Cold One Riders are a no-brainer. Saurus and Skinks should be limited to one per army (that's one Saurs OR SKink, not one of each) and 25 points. Most armies with Core magic standards have a 25 point cap. Alternatively, one could give Tehenhaun and/or Tet the ability to bestow magic banners on Skinks.
 
I started re-writing the LM army book recently and (as luck would have it) I started on spawnings last night, I am happy to post them if it helps with ideas when I've finished them.

So far I've kept the tried test and known old ones, but I've also made some changes to some of them and introduced a second tier of spawnings. These ones are character only choices as they're spawnings from "Peripheral Old Ones", so you have things like Krok-gar's spawning of Xhotl.

I've also been re-working some of the characters and include some new ones (two kroxigor special characters, including Nakai), lotl of the ruby scantum, Kroq and Lotl-Botl.

I've also included a system of upgrades similar to the Slann generations, but it also comes with "teachings" which works in a similar vain to spawnings, but with a twist.
 
Rikard said:
I started re-writing the LM army book recently and (as luck would have it) I started on spawnings last night, I am happy to post them if it helps with ideas when I've finished them.

So far I've kept the tried test and known old ones, but I've also made some changes to some of them and introduced a second tier of spawnings. These ones are character only choices as they're spawnings from "Peripheral Old Ones", so you have things like Krok-gar's spawning of Xhotl.

I've also been re-working some of the characters and include some new ones (two kroxigor special characters, including Nakai), lotl of the ruby scantum, Kroq and Lotl-Botl.

I've also included a system of upgrades similar to the Slann generations, but it also comes with "teachings" which works in a similar vain to spawnings, but with a twist.
Click to expand...

Hey Rikard, If you don't mind posting the spawnings I might consider putting them in! I'm not sure with how i'm designing things but if you don't mind me checking them out I'd appreciate it!
 
How do you guys feel about the BSB rules? When a unit fails combat and your unit has a BSB. That BSB drops the banner and dies (according to the rules I think). Is that reasonable? I mean losing the slann seems super harsh
 
some weeks (or months) ago i posted my idea of spawnings, i don't remember where. The "strange" thing was the following: while the standard troops get the spawning benefit, heroes and lords gain blessings, a more powerful version of the spawning.

OR

max number of spawnings = model's starting wound value
 
That's been on wish list for ages, so yeah. Sacred Spawning need to come back.

I'm not sure about points cost, but I would support:

Chotec: Frenzy
Sotec: Stubborn (this one needs limitations on mixed units to prevent abuse)
Tlaxcotl: +1 Ld
Tepoc: Extra spell for Skink Priests, MR 2 for units, or alternatively it could let PF units restrain themselves without a Skink.
Huanchi: Skink Skirmishers may Scout
Old Ones: +1 wound, characters only
Tzunki: +1 BS for Skinks, +2 I for Sauri
Click to expand...

I was thinking something similar, but probably more standardised so it applies unanimously to both Saurus/Skinks etc. without room for abuse. Obviously, the more powerful they are (eg. Sotek and Chotec), the more expensive they should be.
Perhaps on the lines of:

Chotec, Lord of the Sun: Always Strike First
Sotek, The Bloody Serpent: +1 Strength on Charging.
Quetzl, The Protector: +1 Scaly Skin
Tepok, The Inscrutable: Magic Resistance (2)
Tzlatcotl, The Impassive: Immune to Psychology
Huanchi, The Jaguar: Forest Strider; treat Dangerous Terrain as Open Ground for the purposes of movement.
Itzl, Lord of Cold-Blooded Beasts: ???
Tzunki, Lord of Water: Aquatic; if the unit already has this special rule they gain an additional -1 To Hit when in aquatic terrain.

Also, I was thinking of introducing a new Lord-level 'augmenter' option (which appear popular in armies atm), and mix it with our need for a cheaper lord-level mage:

Skink Prophet:
The Skink Prophet is a Level 2 Wizard who may choose spells from the Lore of Beasts, Lore of Heavens, or Lore of Life.
The Skink Prophet may upgrade to a Level 3 wizard for +25pts.

Armour of Providence:
Plaques of potent extracts and prophecy adorn the Prophet
Armour Save (+1), Ward Save (+1).

Magic Items:
The Skink Prophet may take up to 75pts of magic items.

Prophet of the Old Ones:
May upgrade to one of the following options:

Prophet of Itzl: The Prophet has the Loremaster (Beasts) special rule. Additionally, any unit of Swarms, War Beasts, Monstrous Beasts, Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry, or Monsters, within 16" may always choose to test on the Prophet's leadership.

Prophet of Tzunki: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, gains -1 To Hit from close combat and shooting.

Prophet of Quetzl: +1 Scaly Skin. The Prophet, and any unit he's with, may re-roll failed armour saves.

Prophet of Huanchi: Dangerous terrain tests are treated as Open Ground for the purposes of movement. The Prophet, and any unit he's with, may re-roll failed attempts for charging, fleeing, or pursuing.

Prophet of Tzlatcotl: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, has the Stubborn and Immune to Psychology special rules.

Prophet of Tepok: Magic Resistance (2); re-roll channeling attempts.

Prophet of Sotek: +1 S. The Prophet, and any unit he's with, has the Frenzy special rule. They may never lose their Frenzy even when defeated in combat.Additionally, any Bastiladon with the Ark of Sotek within 12" of the Prophet instead grants .... [I was thinking extra attacks for the close combat snake attack -I don't have the rules to hand however].

Prophet of Chotec: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, has +1 WS. The Prophet may instead choose to use spells from the Lore of Light. Additionally, any Bastiladon with the Solar Engine within 12" of the Prophet instead grants +2 Initiative instead of the usual +1, and ... [a power boost to the Bound Spell -I don't have the rules to hand however].
 
Slanputin said:
That's been on wish list for ages, so yeah. Sacred Spawning need to come back.

I'm not sure about points cost, but I would support:

Chotec: Frenzy
Sotec: Stubborn (this one needs limitations on mixed units to prevent abuse)
Tlaxcotl: +1 Ld
Tepoc: Extra spell for Skink Priests, MR 2 for units, or alternatively it could let PF units restrain themselves without a Skink.
Huanchi: Skink Skirmishers may Scout
Old Ones: +1 wound, characters only
Tzunki: +1 BS for Skinks, +2 I for Sauri
Click to expand...

I was thinking something similar, but probably more standardised so it applies unanimously to both Saurus/Skinks etc. without room for abuse. Obviously, the more powerful they are (eg. Sotek and Chotec), the more expensive they should be.
Perhaps on the lines of:

Chotec, Lord of the Sun: Always Strike First
Sotek, The Bloody Serpent: +1 Strength on Charging.
Quetzl, The Protector: +1 Scaly Skin
Tepok, The Inscrutable: Magic Resistance (2)
Tzlatcotl, The Impassive: Immune to Psychology
Huanchi, The Jaguar: Forest Strider; treat Dangerous Terrain as Open Ground for the purposes of movement.
Itzl, Lord of Cold-Blooded Beasts: ???
Tzunki, Lord of Water: Aquatic; if the unit already has this special rule they gain an additional -1 To Hit when in aquatic terrain.

Also, I was thinking of introducing a new Lord-level 'augmenter' option (which appear popular in armies atm), and mix it with our need for a cheaper lord-level mage:

Skink Prophet:
The Skink Prophet is a Level 2 Wizard who may choose spells from the Lore of Beasts, Lore of Heavens, or Lore of Life.
The Skink Prophet may upgrade to a Level 3 wizard for +25pts.

Armour of Providence:
Plaques of potent extracts and prophecy adorn the Prophet
Armour Save (+1), Ward Save (+1).

Magic Items:
The Skink Prophet may take up to 75pts of magic items.

Prophet of the Old Ones:
May upgrade to one of the following options:

Prophet of Itzl: The Prophet has the Loremaster (Beasts) special rule. Additionally, any unit of Swarms, War Beasts, Monstrous Beasts, Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry, or Monsters, within 16" may always choose to test on the Prophet's leadership.

Prophet of Tzunki: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, gains -1 To Hit from close combat and shooting.

Prophet of Quetzl: +1 Scaly Skin. The Prophet, and any unit he's with, may re-roll failed armour saves.

Prophet of Huanchi: Dangerous terrain tests are treated as Open Ground for the purposes of movement. The Prophet, and any unit he's with, may re-roll failed attempts for charging, fleeing, or pursuing.

Prophet of Tzlatcotl: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, has the Stubborn and Immune to Psychology special rules.

Prophet of Tepok: Magic Resistance (2); re-roll channeling attempts.

Prophet of Sotek: +1 S. The Prophet, and any unit he's with, has the Frenzy special rule. They may never lose their Frenzy even when defeated in combat.Additionally, any Bastiladon with the Ark of Sotek within 12" of the Prophet instead grants .... [I was thinking extra attacks for the close combat snake attack -I don't have the rules to hand however].

Prophet of Chotec: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, has +1 WS. The Prophet may instead choose to use spells from the Lore of Light. Additionally, any Bastiladon with the Solar Engine within 12" of the Prophet instead grants +2 Initiative instead of the usual +1, and ... [a power boost to the Bound Spell -I don't have the rules to hand however].
Click to expand...

Do you have an idea for prices on some of the spawnings and unit upgrades? I like a great deal of what you have here, the only issue I run into is the "always strikes first" rule. Maybe it's just me, but ASF doesn't really fit with our fluff. I think it would be hard to justify. Perhaps a better idea could be +2 I and +1 WS. That way they are more agile and skillful, but not allowed to have the ASF.

Edit: For Itzl, I like the idea of an increase leadership. Makes them even harder to break.
 
EDITED:

Sacred Spawnings:

Chotec, Lord of the Sun: +1 Initiative, Movement and WS.
Sotek, The Bloody Serpent: +1 Strength on Charging.
Quetzl, The Protector: +1 Scaly Skin
Tepok, The Inscrutable: Magic Resistance (2)
Tzlatcotl, The Impassive: Immune to Psychology
Huanchi, The Jaguar: Forest Strider; treat Dangerous Terrain as Open Ground for the purposes of movement.
Itzl, Lord of Cold-Blooded Beasts: Any mounted unit may re-roll failed leadership and psychology test.
Tzunki, Lord of Water: Aquatic; if the unit already has this special rule they gain an additional -1 To Hit when in aquatic terrain.

Also, I was thinking of introducing a new Lord-level 'augmenter' option (which appear popular in armies atm), and mix it with our need for a cheaper lord-level mage:

Skink Prophet:
The Skink Prophet is a Level 2 Wizard who may choose spells from the Lore of Beasts, Lore of Heavens, or Lore of Life.
The Skink Prophet may upgrade to a Level 3 wizard for +25pts.

Armour of Providence:
Plaques of potent extracts and prophecy adorn the Prophet
Armour Save (+1), Ward Save (+1).

Magic Items:
The Skink Prophet may take up to 75pts of magic items.

Prophet of the Old Ones:
May upgrade to one of the following options:

Prophet of Itzl: The Prophet has the Loremaster (Beasts) special rule. Additionally, any unit of Swarms, War Beasts, Monstrous Beasts, Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry, or Monsters, within 16" may always choose to test on the Prophet's leadership [30 pts].

Prophet of Tzunki: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, gains -1 To Hit from close combat and shooting [25 pts].

Prophet of Quetzl: +1 Scaly Skin. The Prophet, and any unit he's with, may re-roll failed armour saves [50 pts].

Prophet of Huanchi: Dangerous terrain tests are treated as Open Ground for the purposes of movement. The Prophet, and any unit he's with, may re-roll failed attempts for charging, fleeing, or pursuing [15 pts].

Prophet of Tzlatcotl: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, has the Stubborn and Immune to Psychology special rules [35 pts].

Prophet of Tepok: Magic Resistance (2); re-roll channeling attempts [40 pts].

Prophet of Sotek: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, has the Frenzy special rule. They may never lose their Frenzy even when defeated in combat.Additionally, any Bastiladon with the Ark of Sotek within 12" of the Prophet instead grants .... [I was thinking extra attacks for the close combat snake attack -I don't have the rules to hand however]. [70 pts]

Prophet of Chotec: The Prophet, and any unit he's with, has +1 WS. The Prophet may instead choose to use spells from the Lore of Light. Additionally, any Bastiladon with the Solar Engine within 12" of the Prophet instead grants +2 Initiative instead of the usual +1, and ... [a power boost to the Bound Spell -I don't have the rules to hand however]. [70 pts]
Click to expand...

Do you have an idea for prices on some of the spawnings and unit upgrades? I like a great deal of what you have here, the only issue I run into is the "always strikes first" rule. Maybe it's just me, but ASF doesn't really fit with our fluff. I think it would be hard to justify. Perhaps a better idea could be +2 I and +1 WS. That way they are more agile and skillful, but not allowed to have the ASF.

Edit: For Itzl, I like the idea of an increase leadership. Makes them even harder to break.
Click to expand...

I've priced the Prophet upgrades. They're obviously going to be somewhat arbitrary, but I based the points values on the 'Loci' special rules from the Daemons of Chaos rulebook, which have a similar function.

I also changed the "always strikes first" rule: I agree, it's just trying to think of a way that gives a boost in theme with Chotec, which also synergises/doesn't clash with the Prophet's rules. I added in an idea for the Spawning of Itzl option. Unsure about how to price the Spawning's however.

Also, there probably needs clarity on how the 'Predatory Fighter' special rule works with supporting attacks. Just to prevent any 20+ pages of debate on certain forums *ahem*
 
Yeah... Maybe when GW sees the error of their ways we'll get a FAQ/Errata. Which in reality will probably never happen. It's hard to convince someone the sun is shining when they refuse to take their out of their a$$. Sigh...

What would you think about a range of 2-3 extra points per model depending on the spawning? If I remember right, in the old rules, if you took a "spawning unit" they advanced to a special choice. Take two and they became rare. Personally I don't care for 2 spawnings for 1 unit, but I wouldn't be opposed to them advancing in their classification. You could have a rare cold one unit with a 1+ armor save or make them harder hitters and give the +1 to strength on the charge, etc... I don't feel like I use very much of my rare choice points, so this would help get some of those points into play. What do you all think?
 
lordkingcrow said:
Yeah... Maybe when GW sees the error of their ways we'll get a FAQ/Errata. Which in reality will probably never happen. It's hard to convince someone the sun is shining when they refuse to take their out of their a$$. Sigh...

What would you think about a range of 2-3 extra points per model depending on the spawning? If I remember right, in the old rules, if you took a "spawning unit" they advanced to a special choice. Take two and they became rare. Personally I don't care for 2 spawnings for 1 unit, but I wouldn't be opposed to them advancing in their classification. You could have a rare cold one unit with a 1+ armor save or make them harder hitters and give the +1 to strength on the charge, etc... I don't feel like I use very much of my rare choice points, so this would help get some of those points into play. What do you all think?
Click to expand...

I'm on the fence but many people on this forum believe that Saurus are not a competitive Core choice. I would be reluctant to boost marked Saurus up to Special for this reason. On the other hand loading up on Marks is a bit too powerful for Core. I would copy what GW did for Inner Circle Knights.

One unit of Saurus Core can take a Mark. Additional units of Saurus Warriors with Marks are Special, possibly give the Special Saurus a slightly better profile, like Initiative 2. There has to be some kind of intermediate level between Saurus Warrior and Scar Veteran. Multiple Marked Saurus as well as marked Cold One Cavalry or Temple Guard should probably be Rare. Vanilla Saurus Cavalry should MAYBE be Core.
 
I could get behind that idea. In order to keep it balanced, but still allow for some extra kick for saurus. Hell, even if they remained core, but could only take one spawning, I don't think it would make anything unbalanced. Look at dwarf Longbeards, WS 5 S 4 T 4 etc... and they are core troops, just with an increased point value. All we get are a touch more expensive troops with more versatility and flavor.
Not sure I could justify cold ones in core though. They are too good for that. They always wreck house for me as are, I wouldn't want them to become broken.
 
Yeah, I'd look at Orcs 'n Gobbos too, and the Big 'Uns upgrade - making a unit more elite, but remaining in Core.
Of course, they only get to upgrade one unit (though really, how many unit of Saurus are you going to field?).


Focusing on Sacred Spawnings for Saurus Warriors, I'd put on the table the following options:

1) One unit of Saurus Warriors per army may take a Sacred Spawning (they remain Core)

2) Any Saurus unit may take a Sacred Spawning; one unit with a Sacred Spawning counts towards your Core troops, while the rest are considered Special

3) Any Saurus unit may take Sacred Spawnings; units that take one Spawning remain Core, while units that take two become Special.


In the fluff, it seems that Sacred Spawnings are very rare. Because of that, I don't think we should leave open the possibility of filling out Core with Sacred Spawning-marked Saurus (though I love the idea, of course).
 
What about Cold One riders? Would it make them Rare or could they take the one upgrade to stay in special?
 
lordkingcrow said:
What about Cold One riders? Would it make them Rare or could they take the one upgrade to stay in special?
Click to expand...

It's influenced by personal biases, but I do not think think they are good enough to compete with our other Special as is. That's why I endorsed making them Core. I don't think they would be worth coveted Rare points with a single Mark. Maybe with two though.

If Cold One Core was too much, we could just bring back Kroq-Gar's old ability to let you take Core if you take him, or limit Cold One Core to one unit like the Empire does with Inner Circle Knights.
 
Scalenex said:
lordkingcrow said:
What about Cold One riders? Would it make them Rare or could they take the one upgrade to stay in special?
Click to expand...

It's influenced by personal biases, but I do not think think they are good enough to compete with our other Special as is. That's why I endorsed making them Core. I don't think they would be worth coveted Rare points with a single Mark. Maybe with two though.

If Cold One Core was too much, we could just bring back Kroq-Gar's old ability to let you take Core if you take him, or limit Cold One Core to one unit like the Empire does with Inner Circle Knights.
Click to expand...

I agree with the idea that one unit of Saurus Core can take a Mark, but additional units of Saurus Warriors with Marks are Special.

I don't think Cold One cavalry should be core, they're powerful for what they are (compare the number of attacks, 'thick-skinned' etc.). I don't have an opinion on Kroq-Gar's ability to make them core, as we don't use special characters in my meta.

Speaking of cavalry, if we get to the point of introducing new units, I wouldn't mind the return of a Horned One unit xp
 
+1 to the Horned One idea. Unfortunately, I converted my skink riders to terradon riders and lost the Horned Ones in a move.
 
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