Cant remember the last time I have lost to the Empire or Dwarf. So, while gun lines are good, they use to intimidate me. not much any more.
He must roll terrible on his warmachines, or not bring enough. You don't even need to spam too hard to outgun Lizardmen to insane levels.
That said: We tend to play at 6-8k per army on a larger board with hidden deployment not the tiny 4x6 2,000 pt games. After playing with hidden deployment, it is usually pretty simple to beat those who dont
Eh. As the game gets larger, you may end up having enough infantry to soak it. He's capped at six cannons, six mortars and six hellblasters (and 3 Stanks), so if he's already maxed out, then yes, you can potentially walk through it and eat him. Most people don't play at 6k though, 2.5 or 3k is more usual for 'large' games.
no cavalry in the game will break Elite style 2 attack TG/WoC infantry from the front. CoR will rape pretty much all core infantry. Empire knights wont. AND the spells you mention will wipe out a Saurus line even faster. Seriously, do you even play this game?
Of course you don't charge the front rank, thats suicide. Steadfast is the 'i win' button of ranked infantry blocks in this edition. I wouldn't even charge Core units in the front, unless they're truly trash like Goblins or Gnoblars (and only if they're not some insane massive horde with great weapon characters hiding in the front rank).
Inner Circle are pretty cost-efficient for monster and warmachine hunting. Bretonnians specialise in having faster-moving, harder hitting (for points/army slot) cavalry than everyone else. I'd definitely rate Grail Knights or even buffed Questing Knights hitting a heavy infantry unit in the flank. TG are pretty screwed against such cavalry unbuffed. Chosen eat everything in combat, so no, I don't consider them a good arbiter of 'good' cavalry. You never engage Chosen in combat by choice.
When I say 'heavy infantry', I mean units that aren't trash Core (some armies have Core that fall into this category, WoC, OK and Dwarves are just a few). 4+ or better armour, S4/5, decent Weapon Skill and/or Initiative etc. Y'know, the kind of thing that rolls over unbuffed Saurus with a yawn, and outgrinds TG (we'll have less Guardians and don't hit as well unbuffed). Special choices usually. Thats what we worry about, because such units are ranked (so Stegs can't help) and TG are not numerous enough to risk it if you don't have a Life Slann (plus they can't be everywhere at once).
They move 14" a turn where infantry move roughly half that. So they have wonderful uses the Saurus can not fulfill.
Yep, which means I can't support them with magic, the EOTG, or the rest of the phalanx. Which means they have to operate under the assumption they're not getting any help. With say Camo Skins, or even Terradons, thats ok, because they have abysmal statlines and are pretty much suicide units (ie I'd never buff them). Mobility is an important asset, and it is something Lizardmen lack. However, for the exorbitant price you pay, you'd want them to hit hard. And not have Stupidity. And not revert to S4 in combat afterwards. And not have WS4.
further, I did not say saurus were not great vs other infantry...i was making a point that our cavalry CAN break infantry blocks from the front. Empire will not. Nor did i say that was the only role for the cavalry. your trying to be a smart ass got in the way of your brain on that one.
My counterpoint is that we don't need our cavalry to do that. Saurus grind away at most enemy Core just fine (buffed they can deal with some Special units too). We need CoC to do something else, ie kill warmachines, support other units in combat with a heavy infantry unit, intercept monsters etc.
Also, insulting someone for having a different opinion, classy.
Perhaps you also missed my point...no wait, no perhaps at all. you did. While Cavalry is not the all winning unit it was in 7th...CoR are (next to WoC cav) the best in the game. If you don't understand how to use them, well perhaps you should contemplate what you are doing wrong with them.
Wut? Assuming such a WoC player is taking them (Chosen are worth taking in a huge block, so often there might not be points for such things), Chaos Knights laugh at our CoC. For 5pts more, they have WS5, S5 magical attacks in every round of combat, I5, still cause Fear, and have access to Marks. Tzeentch gets them 6+ ward, Khorne gives them Frenzy, Nurgle makes them harder to hit. Not as cost-effective as Chosen, but they still are some of the best heavy cavalry in the game.
Also, Bretonnian Grail Knights want a word. Same statline minus the T4, they are S6 on the charge, 5+ ward against S5+ (ie the attacks that actually kill them), all for a 2pt discount.
Stacked next to that (same price range, same role in respective army), CoC don't look good at all.
Perhaps you simply do not play well with them or the LM in general. Dont know...dont care.
You mention you do not like them. makes me think you don't use them right. They kick ass for me, THAT is the primary difference in our points. shrug. But, as far as cavalry go, they are one of the very best in the game.
CoR, for me help win games. But it has been a VERY long time since my LM have lost.
YMMV. I'm not saying they can never be good (they still hit at Initiative, and don't cost 50pts+ per model so they're not Kroxigor bad), but it's really hard to justify fielding even a small unit. I kinda go for a phalanx approach, so anything not in the mutally overlapping 12" zone of awesome (AOE spells, supportive combats, BSB+General aura etc) has to fend for itself. CoC just sorta die pointlessly, or tie something up for a while. Most of my killing is done by TG, Salamanders and magic (Saurus and Skinks handle chaff and tie things up I can't kill straight away).
One thing I might end up trying is a Kroq-Gar list. It means almost no magic, just EOTG and maybe another Priest for arcane caddy. Load up on Stegs (using points saved not taking TG bunkers), take a big unit of CoC for Core, fill in with Salamanders and Saurus. CoC fulfilling Core I can live with, they're definitely better than Saurus at the very least.
