8th Ed. daemons of chaos

[zamtap]

hi all, i'm going be fielding my lizardmen agaisnt a demons of chaos army next week for the first time
any tips?

 

[Arli]

I am not sure what has changed in the White Dwarf update, but from memory:

Salamanders are good, but only good. The Daemons do not take panic checks. You actually may do better with razordons in this case.

The Daemon army is unstable and when they lose combat, they lose that number of models (i.e. if they lose by 4, they take 4 wounds). With this in mind, the combat banner (+1 combat rez) is a good thing. Multiple charges would be good as well. To that end, I would suggest a skrox unit.

The skrox unit will be immune to fear and the Daemon army causes fear across the board.

If you are taking a slann, lore of light can be a good thing. However, there is an item in the daemon book that will cause the slann to miscast or some such mischief if you take lore of light (keep that in mind).

To control the magic phase, I suggest the cube of darkness and a dispell scroll. If you take a slann, becalming cogitation would help as well.

Hope this helps.

If you have any other questions, please let us know.

 

[zamtap]

thank you, cube of darkness is very good for ending a magic phase before it gets started, any way to get a reroll on the d6?

will stegadons get shot to peices as they cross the board? and will they generally get thunderstomps off?

skink skimishers and chameleon skinks will they have a good or bad time? will they be effective or are there lots of armour / scaley skin saves in the daemons army

do they have a spell like the skaven dreaded 13th which makes small units inadvisable (if number rolled is greater than the size of the unit they all change into enemy ( meaning solo slann and small chameleon skink units is inadvisable))

while thinking of solo slann how much of their army deals magical hits?

unfortunatly i don't have the models for a kroxogors so skrox will not be making an appearance, may have to make an investment soon

cold one cavalry are a better than usual option as they cause fear?

are they a mobile or static army?

cheers

 

[Rhodium]

One unique thing about daemons is that are kind of 4 smaller
Armies in one book, they all their own playing style so can be very different
depending on the units taken.

There aren't many high armour saves or scaly skins except bloodcrushers but all daemons have
A 5+ ward so poison shots do lose some of their use.

All attacks from a daemon are magical so a solo slann is very vulnerable.

They don't really have one great spell but they do have many useful ones,
watch out for Glean Magic in the Lore of Tzeentch. But a true level 4 is very expensive
so it is more likely to see multiple lower level casters.

They don't really have great shooting and limited war machines
so much more of a mobile army.

 

[Stonecutter]

The point level has a very strong impact on what will be in a DoC army as the greater daemons are more expensive than a fully kitted slaan so you are unlikely to see them under 2000 points and even up to 2400 will likely only see a Khorne blood thirster. The most likely mix you will see will include core bloodletters & horrors, flamers and perhaps some of the new chariots. As Rhodium indicated, there are four different themed "flavours" based on the gods of Nurgle, Tzeentch, Khorne & Slaanesh. In addition, there are several pages of deamonic gifts that are like magic items of which multiples can be taken in an army. They are quite good for the points and too numerous to mention. Here is a quick synopsis of key troops you might see and some ideas for using lizzie troops against DoC:

Core:
Bloodletters - high WS & S with KB so keep characters out of contact. If a herald (hero) is in the unit then they get hatred. Likely to have a banner that allows them to charge 3d6 + move on their first charge.

Daemonettes - high WS, AP, two attacks and ASF if the herald is in the unit which means they are re-rolling to hit against everything in the lizard army. Very fast movement equal to skinks.

Plaguebearers - tough, decent WS, poison and regen if herald is in the unit.

Horrors - human stats, 4+ ward with herald in the unit but biggest use is as a high level wizard since unit size dictates wizard level from 1-4.

Special:
Flamers - very effective skirmishing missile troops with d6 xS4 flaming shots each with range similar to short bow. The new WD reduced their strength, increased their cost and gave them multiple shot rule but a unit of 6 can deal a lot of damage since they have elf like BS. They are reasonable in combat due to toughness and a couple of wounds each.

Flesh Hounds - very fast war beasts with high WS, extra attack and wound.

Nurglings - neat scouting swarm unit with poison attacks.

Rare:
New chariots - too many to mention but very good for chariots

Seekers of slaanesh - monstrous infantry that is as fast as fliers

Beasts of Nurgle - fairly quick, very tough monstrous infantry with random, poisonous attacks.

In terms of countering them, here are a few things I use:

skrox - very good general purpose unit since they can shoot and I find them perfect to take on bloodletters since skinks get 6+ parry and the krox can lay a beating with relative impunity. Better that cheap skinks die rather than expensive saurus or TG. Also excellent for tieing up greater daemons since they cannot be stomped.

skinks - daemons have virtually no armour and even the ward save will often fail. The core troops are fairly easy to wound and poison is awesome. The volume of fire and ability to sacrifice a small unit to redirect a horde makes them essential.

saurus - decent for grinding out against most core troops due to toughness and armour save. Possibly a better option than TG since they are cheaper and get a 6+ parry in addition to AS. If buffed by life they, like TG, become extremely effective.

sallies - highly effective against large blocks of core troops.

Scar vets - since DoC have no war machines, you can mount them on cold ones and get them to a 1+ save. They can easily defeat all heralds except for Khorne (due to KB ability) and are perfect for taking out or holding up flamers if you give them dragonhelm/dragonbane gem.

EoTG - purpose built for "bombing" daemons but make sure you keep it from being engaged in CC or the priest will die quickly. Dawnstone will help keep the priest alive and if you can get a flank charge in then the risk is minimized.

Slaan - as always, awesome. My personal opinion is that life is best due to potential for the DoC banner that makes any light spell casting with a double result in a miscast. In addition, dwellers on a horde of anything but bloodletters will drop nearly half the unit since ward saves are not allowed.

No matter what you face, the DoC are likely to be a handful since they have so many options and are highly effective for their point cost. Good luck and good hunting.

 

[zamtap]

i'm playing at 2000 points, against someone who has played deamons at both fantasy and 40k.

is there any way to get a copy of the rules in white dwalf other than getting someone who gets white dwalf to photocopy them?

 

[Stonecutter]

i'm playing at 2000 points, against someone who has played deamons at both fantasy and 40k.

is there any way to get a copy of the rules in white dwalf other than getting someone who gets white dwalf to photocopy them?

The WD insert only introduced a new slaanesh chariot and the soulgrinder monster (SGM) and increased the points for screamers and flamers along with some minor rule changes for them. The chariot has double impact hits (S4 AP, IIRC) and a pile of wounds while the SGM is a big monster with high S, very high T and a moderate AS (on top of the ward save). At 2000 points you are far more likely to see these big nasties deployed since any greater daemon would be virtually naked although much will depend on what models the other person actually has available.

 

[magician]

The new screamers are roughly equivalent to flying saurus champions, with a 5+ ward instead of armor and 2 wounds each. Respect them.

The best way to beat deamon troops is to weaken each unit so that it wi lose combat. Once you start forcing instability tests they are largely doomed.

Salllies, skinks, terradons can whittle them down. Steg/engin countercharges can do a lot to swing a combat.

Lore of light is brutal, but can be countered. I would suggest life for a war or attrition. Once you start winning you will tend to keep rolling unless they change the combat dynamic.

A TG champ or vet with the dragonhelm or dragonbane gem can wreck their character assassin (skulltaker...fear his hatred/5+ hkb in a challenge, love the fact he has flaming attacks and MUST challenge/accept). The 2+ ward vs fire is also ace against lore of tzeentch spells and all tzeentch daemons.

You are unlikely to face a cannon or similar shot unless they bring the new giant monster thingy, so a lone cowboy vet can give you good flexibillity.

If there is a huge model shooting you like a war machine mass poison it fast. It's lots of points and worse to face in combat than a steg ancient (except imact hits, which iirc it lacks).

Good luck!

 

[DanBot]

I don't think sallies are any good vs deamons. They don't panic and they have ward saves rather than armor. And the smallest base the army comes on is 25mm. I'd go with the razordons for sure. They also don't have any core shooting so they have to either charge the razordons or shoot at them with something that is probably expensive.

 

[Dreyer]

I don't think sallies are any good vs deamons. They don't panic and they have ward saves rather than armor. And the smallest base the army comes on is 25mm. I'd go with the razordons for sure. They also don't have any core shooting so they have to either charge the razordons or shoot at them with something that is probably expensive.

How do you deal with stuff like a bloodletter horde then? my usual strategy involves the withering and a couple of salamanders. If I sent my saurus into them they usually gets brutally murdered.

edit, just dont see razordons killing enough and they are not as good versus other armies as salamanders are. Even when I have tried them the stand and shoot has a really high chance of misfiring and that means bye bye razordon!

 

[Qupakoco]

How do you deal with stuff like a bloodletter horde then? my usual strategy involves the withering and a couple of salamanders. If I sent my saurus into them they usually gets brutally murdered.

Withering and Sallies is always good. They still get a ward save though. Speaking from experience, a skrox unit of 3 Krox with skinks to spare can go toe to toe with a bloodletter horde without any support. Skinks will die like crazy but the Krox hit back hard enough to even things out. Plus you can set up right in front of them and toss javelins until they charge you.

Saurus really need some magical support for anything in the DoC army. Not to mention there is always the odd chance you will fail your fear test.

 

[Stonecutter]

In my experience, sallies work very well against daemon core troops, especially bloodletters in horde formation The template will hit ~20 per shot, resulting in 6-7 casualties after saves. With two packs, even one round of shooting can seriously deplete a horde, allowing the skrox to move up and get into combat with them.

 

[Dreyer]

How do you deal with stuff like a bloodletter horde then? my usual strategy involves the withering and a couple of salamanders. If I sent my saurus into them they usually gets brutally murdered.

Withering and Sallies is always good. They still get a ward save though. Speaking from experience, a skrox unit of 3 Krox with skinks to spare can go toe to toe with a bloodletter horde without any support. Skinks will die like crazy but the Krox hit back hard enough to even things out. Plus you can set up right in front of them and toss javelins until they charge you.

Saurus really need some magical support for anything in the DoC army. Not to mention there is always the odd chance you will fail your fear test.

Never tried the skrox unit but wont it take forever for the kroxigor to take down the unit? they kill maybe 3 or 4 each turn while you would probably run out of skinks in 2 rounds of combat.

 

[totzro]

How do you deal with stuff like a bloodletter horde then? my usual strategy involves the withering and a couple of salamanders. If I sent my saurus into them they usually gets brutally murdered.

Withering and Sallies is always good. They still get a ward save though. Speaking from experience, a skrox unit of 3 Krox with skinks to spare can go toe to toe with a bloodletter horde without any support. Skinks will die like crazy but the Krox hit back hard enough to even things out. Plus you can set up right in front of them and toss javelins until they charge you.

Saurus really need some magical support for anything in the DoC army. Not to mention there is always the odd chance you will fail your fear test.

Never tried the skrox unit but wont it take forever for the kroxigor to take down the unit? they kill maybe 3 or 4 each turn while you would probably run out of skinks in 2 rounds of combat.

How often do the skrox win combat, and if they loose don't they break? Isn't the skinks giving combat res like crazy to your opponent?

 

[Stonecutter]

Yes, the skrox will definitely lose quickly if facing a full strength bloodletter (BL)horde and skinks will die in droves but the same can be said of a block of saurus. The key is reducing the horde before engaging. Here is some mathhammer to help visualize a skrox vs bloodletter engagement where each side has ~500 points.

Daemons - 40 BL's with banner & mus.
Lizzies - Skrox with 24 skink/3 krox, FC & 3 x sallies

Round 1
Sallies flame unit from flank, killing 20 BL on avg (20 hits x 50% wound x 67% failed save x 3 templates). In addition, skrox move into frontage of 12 and shoot 18 shots. This causes 3 wounds on avg (3 poison & 3 hits x 50 % wound = 4.5 wounds x 67% failed save = 3 wounds). BL horde is now down to 17 models.

Round 2
BL charge, skrox stand and shoot. On average, 3 wounds from poison (shooting at charging enemy at long range means 6's required to hit) resulting in 2 more wounds, so BL horde now down to 15 models. Combat between skinks and BL occurs simultaneously due to initiative with results as follows:
BL - 15 attacks x 2/3 = 10 hits x 5/6 to wound x 5/6 parry save = 7 dead skinks.
Skrox - 18 skinks x 1/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 2/3 failed ward save = 2 dead BL. Krox = 9 attacks x 1/2 hit x 5/6 wound x 2/3 failed save = 2.5 BL. Total BL dead = 4.5
At this point, combat results are BL = 7 wounds + banner + charge = 9 and skrox = 5 wounds +banner +2 ranks (3 krox provides 2 ranks) = 8. Skrox are steadfast due to ranks and nearly guaranteed to hold with slaan BSB nearby for re-roll. Overall giving up 7 skinks to kill 5 BL is a great deal.

Round 3
BL - 10 attacks as above yields 4.6 dead skinks (call it 5).
Skrox - 17 skinks & 3 krox yield the same 4.5 dead BL (call it 4 this time).
Result is that skrox win combat by 1 due to rank bonus.

Round 4
BL - 6 remaining BL yields 2.8 dead skinks
Skrox - 12 skinks & 3 krox = 3.8 (call it 4 dead BL)
Result is skrox win by 3 (1 wound + 2 ranks) and BL likely pop.

End result is that ~15 skinks have died while the entire BL horde is wiped out - definitely a bargain!!

Now, if the horde has a herald, balancing the points would allow the addition of loads more skinks + another krox & maybe even a 4th sally. Key is to deplete the horde before it reaches combat.

 

[totzro]

Ok but that is highly dependent on that the sallies are performing well. And couldn't you just use salamanders running around and shooting at the horde?

 

[Wistrel]

Ok but that is highly dependent on that the sallies are performing well. And couldn't you just use salamanders running around and shooting at the horde?

Indeed, especially if you split the 3 salamanders into individual packs, then if the Daemons choose to try and attack the sallies they can only choose 1.

 

[Dreyer]

Yes, the skrox will definitely lose quickly if facing a full strength bloodletter (BL)horde and skinks will die in droves but the same can be said of a block of saurus. The key is reducing the horde before engaging. Here is some mathhammer to help visualize a skrox vs bloodletter engagement where each side has ~500 points.

Daemons - 40 BL's with banner & mus.
Lizzies - Skrox with 24 skink/3 krox, FC & 3 x sallies

Round 1
Sallies flame unit from flank, killing 20 BL on avg (20 hits x 50% wound x 67% failed save x 3 templates). In addition, skrox move into frontage of 12 and shoot 18 shots. This causes 3 wounds on avg (3 poison & 3 hits x 50 % wound = 4.5 wounds x 67% failed save = 3 wounds). BL horde is now down to 17 models.

Round 2
BL charge, skrox stand and shoot. On average, 3 wounds from poison (shooting at charging enemy at long range means 6's required to hit) resulting in 2 more wounds, so BL horde now down to 15 models. Combat between skinks and BL occurs simultaneously due to initiative with results as follows:
BL - 15 attacks x 2/3 = 10 hits x 5/6 to wound x 5/6 parry save = 7 dead skinks.
Skrox - 18 skinks x 1/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 2/3 failed ward save = 2 dead BL. Krox = 9 attacks x 1/2 hit x 5/6 wound x 2/3 failed save = 2.5 BL. Total BL dead = 4.5
At this point, combat results are BL = 7 wounds + banner + charge = 9 and skrox = 5 wounds +banner +2 ranks (3 krox provides 2 ranks) = 8. Skrox are steadfast due to ranks and nearly guaranteed to hold with slaan BSB nearby for re-roll. Overall giving up 7 skinks to kill 5 BL is a great deal.

Round 3
BL - 10 attacks as above yields 4.6 dead skinks (call it 5).
Skrox - 17 skinks & 3 krox yield the same 4.5 dead BL (call it 4 this time).
Result is that skrox win combat by 1 due to rank bonus.

Round 4
BL - 6 remaining BL yields 2.8 dead skinks
Skrox - 12 skinks & 3 krox = 3.8 (call it 4 dead BL)
Result is skrox win by 3 (1 wound + 2 ranks) and BL likely pop.

End result is that ~15 skinks have died while the entire BL horde is wiped out - definitely a bargain!!

Now, if the horde has a herald, balancing the points would allow the addition of loads more skinks + another krox & maybe even a 4th sally. Key is to deplete the horde before it reaches combat.

Nice post! I usually run my salamanders up to shoot at the bloodletters while at the same time parking some skinks in front of the horde, that gives me 2 turns to molest them and usually after that you can sneeze on them and they fall over. Definitely need to try a skrox unit though the thought of painting more skinks and buying krox pains me.

 

[Rhodium]

My two armies are lizards and daemons and from experience and gut feeling I would rather have a horde of BL than a (unbuffed) skrox unit.
The problem with mathammer is that it takes one on one battles out of context and then attempts to apply maths to it. In this case, I believe it is even more out of context given that it is 4 units against one (and there is a mention of a Slann as well). If all your Sallies are focusing on the horde what are the rest of the daemons army doing?
Also there is a good chance a herald is in there giving hatred. you have said "Now, if the horde has a herald, balancing the points would allow the addition of loads more skinks + another krox & maybe even a 4th sally. Key is to deplete the horde before it reaches combat."
This isn't exactly true, a herald would allow the addition of a sallie and 7 skinks or a krox and 12 skinks, not a sallie and a krox and loads more skinks

But the biggest flaw in this mathematical argument is Round 1:

You say each Sallie does 20 hits, half wound, two thirds get past ward, times three, cancelling everything out and giving twenty dead BL.
This would be valid if a sallie automatically hits twenty men with every shot, they dont and the maths takes no account for the artillery dice roll.
Firstly: 1/6 of the time there is a misfire, completely messing the number of hits.
Secondly, you need to clarify number of hit for EACH dice roll, and this is dependent on your distance from the horde:

for example: If a sallie is 2 inches away from the flank of a BL horder (which is 10 inches wide) then the roll of a two would lead to 20 hits however if you rolled a 10 of the dice, you would only hit the last two "columns" of bloodletters leading to 4 hits at most. and every number inbetween:

conversely if the sallie is 10 inches away, a roll of 10 will give the optimum number of hits, however a roll of 2 will give you no hits.

This completely changes the "20 dead BL" mathematical outcome and therefore effects every single further combat.


Also given that the whole battle is out of context, it is very optimised in the skinks favour, you say walk 6 inches and fire javs from two ranks so that means they must have been 17 inches or less beforehand for this to work, why did the bloodletters not charge the turn before? Who doesnt take the icon of endless war? this gives an average charge distance of 15.5 inches, good chance they might make that charge, alternatively, if the bloodletters moved the turn before, why did the daemon player leave them in range of a move and shoot from the skrox? seems like a rookie error, if they sit 19 inches away then they prevent this move and shoot by the skrox, either the skrox moves to 7-13 inches away and risks the charge or sits there at 19 inches and the BL go after the sallies. Also why has someone let 3 sallies just march up into the flank of their BL horde? what was this person doing for the rest of the previous turns?


This is why I dont like mathhammer, however the biggest problem I have with the maths is the fact the random roll of the artillery dice is not accounted for (this is no easy equation to compute either due to the relationship between distance from target and dice roll)

 

[Rhodium]

Ok but that is highly dependent on that the sallies are performing well. And couldn't you just use salamanders running around and shooting at the horde?

Indeed, especially if you split the 3 salamanders into individual packs, then if the Daemons choose to try and attack the sallies they can only choose 1.

Sallies are rare, you can only take 2 packs unless you are running a grand army of more than 3000 points,

If you are doing that then mathhammer fails even more! Then you are taking 500 points of a 3000 point army so a sixth and comparing it in isolation, that is even more distorted and out of context