Discussion Daemons of Order

[RoseThorn]

Well, this idea has been bouncing around my head for a while, along with the idea of a Daemon that was chaotic, but not mindlessly destructive. One of the big things is the army book's name is very specific,
'Daemons of Chaos' implies there are more types. Kcibrihp and I have had multiple conversations about the nature of Daemons in Warhammer, so, what do you guys think? My reasoning is as follows.

Daemons of Chaos are born from negative emotion tainting the Winds of Magic, so would positive emotions birth Daemons of Order? Also, A Daemon is a free thinking being, so they can make decisions of they're own. So, therefore, a Daemon can view Order as a good thing, and support it, so what happens to it? It can hardly disappear, they are immortal beings and so must linger. Using both these trails of logic you can see why there would be Daemons of Order. I look forward to reading your opinions.

Also, Kcibrihp had one theory for the Daemons that make a choice for Order, which you guys might like. The Lizardmen are Daemons of Order. Think about it.

 

[Bowser]

See I was along the same lines of figuring this out. If you think in terms of D&D alignments, the typical Daemon would be chaotic evil. A lawful evil daemn would be like a devil. Still has to follow law or a code of honour/conduct. Seraphon would range from lawful neutral to lawful good, and if handled right couls be lawful evil, (depending on your protagonist’s point of view.)
But given that Chaos can make thise choices, sometimes the most chaotic thing would be to have a Lawful Good daemon in the same crew as a bunch of chaotic evil daemons. The rest would think it's playing some kind of game and could even disturb them a little.

Sorry for the D &D breakdown, it was a quick and simple way to put the thought out there.

 

[Kcibrihp-Esurc]

I personally like @Bowser 's DnD breakdown, partially because I play DnD so I understand it, and also because it covers most of the bases. The 'Lizardmen as Daemons of Order' idea was actually a 'what if' scenario, and I think that the reason why you don't find Daemons of Order often is two fold, One, The world is so Grimdark that they generally don't appear often, and get swarmed by Chaos Daemons when they do. Two, there are no Gods that would protect an Order Daemon from the big four- Five if you count a certain Rat.

 

[spawning of Bob]

I didn't know the Lawful / Evil / etc charts originated from D+D. This 40K one is instructive - no Daemons.

http://sputnik127.deviantart.com/art/Warhammer-40k-Alignment-Chart-142888032

I fnd daemons a bit boring as characters - they are more like a force of nature to me. They motivate characters to do stuff, but have little scope for character development - at least in a story about anythng other than a daemon.

If you wanted to write a story about a daemon there is a lot of scope to depict rebellion away from a very regimented society. Option B, is weak in my opinion, but Option B would be the daemon is so random that other daemons can't rely on them to destroy the world properly.

Back to my PoV on daemons. I don't consider them to be evil at all - they are true to their nature and world view. Same with skaven - you could never feel bad about being betrayed by a rat because it was just a matter of time. Humans and elves - they are the ones to watch. Freedom of choice leads to selfish and spiteful choices in certain individuals. Can humies and pointy ears ever be considered purely and irredeemably evil? Maybe, but that is a boring bit of characterisation as well.

What was the question? Daemons of Light?

Being from another (specific) dimension is what makes a daemon.

Could one from beyond do things which advanced the subjective cause of "good"? Could they be morally infected by exposure to mortals?

Maybe you could write something to inform us.

 

[Scalenex]

Scalenex's Repsonse Part One

D&D worlds vary based on terrain, cultural reference, time period, different mythos and even the level of seriousness but they nearly all have some variation of Good and Evil struggling for dominance. Sometimes it's a near constant bloody dentente. Sometimes it swings back and forth between long periods dominated by Good and long periods dominated by Evil but the two cosmic forces are usually pretty balanced.

The Warhammer fantasy world is defined by TV tropes as a crapsack world. TV tropes actually discusses Warhammer Fantasy specifically right here.

But you'd probably rather read what Scalenex writes, right?

Being eaten alive is a primal visceral fear we humans have had for hundreds of thousands of years. Orcs and Goblins and Ogres all eat people and these are the setting's COMIC RELIEF.

But look at the good guys.

The Empire has made no major advancements in agriculture. Most of their population struggles to eke out a sustenance living in dirt and dung. The forests are full of inhospitable monsters and cannot be tamed. There is fantasy Renaissance steam punk technology but none of it helps improve the quality of life, but it does enable mass industrial scale slaughter. Their government reflects the worst aspects of monarchy and democracy. Leaders are entrenched and there is no social mobility but with the top level is still elected by scheming oligarchs which has resulted in bloody civil wars multiples times. Monarchy without stability. Elections without freedom.

Brettonian doesn't have Elector Counts or steam punk weapons. They have an aristocracy that is not just indifferent to their underlings suffering but is openly antagonistic towards them. Oh and various dark Fair Folk periodically kidnap young boys and girls and take them away never to be seen again and nobody bats an eye. That's tolerated because once in a while the Fair Folk send out mind wiped beautiful young women who are probably human and definitely backing up the corrupt nobles with their magic.

Dwarves are fatalistic curmudgeons. Elders are willing to let their ancient secrets die out because the young aren't good enough to learn them in their bigoted eyes. New innovations are punished. The Dwarves will attack their allies and innocents alike because someone's great great great grandfather hurt their feelings.

The Lizardmen are aloof and bestial guardians of order. They enthusiastically murder helpless sapient beings on a scale not seen in real world human history until the genocides of the 19th and 20th century. They blindly obey vague writings on golden plaques and create unprecedented natural disasters without batting an eye.

High Elves and Wood Elves are better than most, but the High Elves arrogance regularly threatens to destroy the world since they hold a tentative grasp on a vortex that basically the metaphysically chicken wire keeping the world from bursting at the seems. They have more resources and lore than anyone else but they don't share with their lesser despite slowly dying out. The Wood Elves ally with the worst of the strange mystical creatures that are so dark the Brother's Grimm would blanch. When a High Elf has the chance to become a demigod, she has one minute of cognitive dissonance before deciding to literally consume the souls of her kinsmen. See the entry on Daemons below to realize just how callous this is.

Back to the rest.

Ogres are jolly comedy relief cannibals. They also spiritual cancer consuming their wills and souls and they WORSHIP this thing eating them.

Orc and Goblins are destructive comedy relief cannibals. They have no loyalty to each others and fight continuously. Because they breed from spores. There is literally nothing that can stop them.

Daemons will probably eat your soul. You know unless a priest of Morr provides a complicated ritual over your corpse and nothing disturbs the cemetery EVER. Or if you are an Elf and nothing disturbs the Waystone you are tied to EVER. If you are an lost Elf, eternal torment with Mirai is considered better than having one's soul consumed by Slaanesh.

Daemons want to eat my soul? Most northerners are like "Sign me up!" About one in a million are going to promoted to Daemonhood. Not that Daemonhood is that great. The Chaos Realms are rough even on locals and a Daemon out of favor with the Dark Lords is in a dire spot indeed and a Daemons favor or disfavor is largely random so what you strive for is meaningless. Oh but a lot of the Chaos Warriors get a consolation prize of getting permanently fused to armor which prevents them from even enjoying simple physical pleasures like food and warmth. Oh, and the dark god of infinite decay and disease is the nice jolly one.

The slavery of Ancient Egypt seems rough? The Ancient Egyptian fixation on death seemed gloomy? What if you turned up the fixation on death so life was basically irrelevant altogether. What if you got to be a lobotomized slave for eternity. You can rule over your lifeless pile of sand and be killed and brought back again hundreds of times as you fend off numerous insane looters.

Well at least the Nehekharans kind of volunteered for it. The Vampire Counts combine the horrors of undead with the morality issues of cruel leaders fond of torture. Are the vampires having a good time at least? No sparkly sexy vampires here, their capacity for love and joy withers away leaving anger and a bottomless pit of greed that can never be satisfied.

Slavery is cruel and evil. The Dark Elves slaves have to deal with the fact that torture is the national sport. There is tainted mines where slaves are worked to death, then their skeletons labor and they are worked till decomposition. The Dark Elves themselves are enslaved to a living suit of armor's mad ambitions taking the exact same invasion route assailing Ulthuans impenetrable gates rather than sailing around them. Also Malekith's system has breaking families built into it. The most loyal families have their children stolen to be turned into mindwiped elite body guards while their mother are' killed. These are the Dark Elves Malekith likes.

Chaos Dwarves combine slavery with the dehumanizing mass slaughter aspects of industrialization and cannibalism. They have a 1984-esque level of rigidity. Most of the soldiers are serving punishment conscription after having their faces disfigured by molten metal because their distant relations mildly annoyed their leader.

The Beastmen are the most loyal and dependable followers of Chaos, but they never win their patron's favor. They also are eaten by fleas and every unpleasant aspect of the wilderness. They can't manufacture anything and rely on stealing weapons and booze but given their tendency to smash everything they see means they are inefficient thieves.

The Skaven contend with fleas, disease, the evils of slavery and they have the distinction of being the most divided race on the planet. Everyone will betray everyone else for the slightest chance of personal gain. Unless the Skaven is a female in which case they can expect to be pumped with painful drugs and surrounded by squealing biting whelps until her short miserable life end and her withered corpses is fed to the next generation of breeders.

The Warhammer would break the suspension belief if it had powerful immortal champions of good on par with Daemons. Maybe Age of Sigmar is going to go in a more positive direction. But is it still Warhammer if it has hope? Every single game invented by Games Workshop is a crapsack setting. Could they make a hopeful setting even if they wanted to?

Conclusion: Daemons are the manifestation of all the world's darker desires and impulses. The Warhammer world is so dark that there is not enough goodness to allow comparable spiritual beings fed by noble impulses. The best you'd get is some kind of puny creatures on par with a Nurglings and Chaos would wipe them out like a candle flame in a hurricane.

EDIT: Don't let this stop you from writing about Daemons of Virtue. For the cause of a good story ANYTHING Games Workshop establishes as canon can and should be tossed aside, including the over aching atmosphere of despair.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Seraphon are called into being by a Slann, what if they were called into being by something else?

Would that change what they are?

 

[spawning of Bob]

Scalenex's Repsonse Part One

You seem disillusioned. To cheer yourself up , you should ask @Scolenex about the Republican Primaries.

 

[Scalenex]

You seem disillusioned. To cheer yourself up , you should ask @Scolenex about the Republican Primaries.

I'm not disillusioned. I said the Warhammer world is irredeemable dark. When it comes to the real world I agree with Dr. King.

The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.

While politics and social justice are both worthy topics we are not talking about politics or social justice. We are talking about fictional beings in a fictional universe based on our toys.

 

[spawning of Bob]

That's good. I like how L-O's lizardmen generally defy the role they have been alotted. Yes, they exterminate innocents from time to time, but it is for nuanced reasons.

As for the real world, I think Don King has another valid perspective.

If a bullfrog had wings it wouldn't bump his behind every time he hopped.

 

[n810]

I think I recall that daemons-of-order where actually a thing in the early versions of Warhammer.

 

[Warden]

Speaking of non-evil daemons, Arch over at Arch Warhammer makes a case in his Wood Elf video that the dryads/tree spirits/nature spirits that live in the forest might actually be daemons, but not necessary aligned to the chaos gods or necessarily evil at all. Video is really long, but the interesting part is about 7-10 minutes in where he talks about how the realm of athel loren is almost a mini realm of chaos and the "forest spirits" are actually neutral daemons, mostly interested in defending the forest. So there's at least one example where some daemon-like creatures are not aligned "evil," BUT then again they do tend to butcher anyone who ventures into their forest so they aren't the cuddly type either...

 

[Warden]

And wow n810 was right, there was such a thing as chaos gods of order, way back in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, first edition.

Also found the actual book on scribd, I just don't have an account. Its on page 210, only Khorne, Nurgle, and Malal are mentioned for chaos though.

Chaos gods of law:

Solkan- warrior god of Law, opposed to Khorne, angry god of vengeance

Arianka- enforcement of law and order, disciplined warrior, trapped by a chaos god in crystal-gromril coffin under Praag in Kislev

Alluminas- god of light, opposed to Nurgle, apparently he is too difficult for normal humans to understand so he isn't worshipped much.

I don't see any specific "daemons" attributed to these gods though.

 

[n810]

One wonders of Sotec was actually Solkan by another name...

 

[Hyperborean]

Actually gonna chuck my two cents on this. In theory you could have a daemon of order and not necessarily like a lawful evil sorta deal. Daemon comes from the Greek meaning a "lesser divinity", not necessarily evil but demigods and such like. The term itself did not originally mean evil until, vaguely more contemporary times.

Couple that with the daemons from the first edition and you could have a bit of fun, especially if you wanted your lizard men to be daemons of light. Could make some fun stories with that.

 

[Scalenex]

Scalenex's Response Part One

Not one person asked me for part two...

I know you all yearned for my part two. Because no one took the prompting and verbalized what I knew you were all thinking before. I now have to make educated guesses on what you the reader are thinking in response to my prose.

Scalenex's Repsonse Part Two

Okay, so Scalenex brutally explained that the Warhammer world can't sustain greater spiritual beings of pure virtue. You aren't going to see Celestials battle Devils and Demons like in D&D settings. But the Warhammer world is a crapsack world, not a version of Hell itself. There has to be good somewhere or there is no real conflict. No tabletop battles, no fluff.

So what is the consolation prize that the world gets instead of Daemons of Virtue. They get the gods: Sigmar, Sotek, Gork, Mork, Hashut, the Great Horned Rat, the Lady in the Lake. There are 22 Elven gods on page 36 of the Wood Elf army book. There are gods barely mentioned like Manan. There are gods that are only mentioned once in official fluff and never again. There's even a minor local Empire river god mentioned in passing in Scalenex's fluff piece Legacies that not even my biggest fans can name off the top of their head.

What do the gods do? Well they can do magic.

In game terms an Empire Warrior Priest can channel the Winds of Magic, what is essentially a Chaos force, to smite evil or protect good warriors. Why would Chaos let their power be usurped like this.

A Orc Shaman can use Winds of Magic to conjure a giant green foot to step on a bunch of Nurgle Daemons. If Magic is an aspect of Chaos and the Orcs are a Force of Destruction, Gork and Mork shouldn't be able to oppose the forces of Chaos.

So you might say, magic is still dangerous, by letting the mortals have access to magic that seems useful well set up their downfall. I don't buy it. Magic is critical to winning most games in crunch terms. In fluff terms magic saves the bacon of just about every faction at some point or another.

What about all the gods that don't power wizards?

Well a lot of gods don't power magic users. Why do you think Phoenix Guard and Savage Orcs have Ward saves? Heck, any implausible abilities can be credited to the gods. So could swings of luck. You could also credit the gods with inspiring their followers to great deeds.

Why are Sigmar and Sotek be included in the same group of Gork, Mork, and the Great Horned Rat? Aren't the evil gods net-contributors to Destruction?

Why thank you for leading into my next point. Daemons are pure embodiments of Chaos, but the various gods of the Warhammer world are not pure. They all have good and bad aspects.

Why? Did they start out as good and get tainted by the Four Great Chaos Powers?

Kind of. So you start with a "Daemon" of pure valor that embodies the chivalric ideal. Slaanesh would eat such a being alive, but this hypothetical proto-Daemon instinctively searches for a new source of power. These legends of the warrior Sigmar are growing with each retelling. Behold, this proto-Daemon of Valor morphs into Sigmar. Not the real warrior, the legend of Sigmar. While Sigmar is a great source of goodness reflecting valor and courage he also embodies the hierarchy of social tiers. Sigmar carries a piece of the prejudices and fears of the people of the Empire, so he's not perfect.

Gork and Mork are REALLY extreme. They started as the embodiment the ideals of Brutality and Cunning respectively. They latched onto the greenskins for strength. Centuries of the adoration of generations of Orcs and Goblins has gradually shaped them until they are now indistinguishable.

Skaven lifespans are short and they are born en masse. That means the Horned Rat absorbs the hopes, fears, and ambitions of A LOT more mortals than any other god. Who knows what concept the Horned Rat used to stand for, it has changed more than any other.

So is this why the gods in Warhammer only seem to embody the extremes of their worshippers behaviors?

Yes. Well that and a lack of nuance with GW writers.

I like your organic well thought out explanation better than the cynical one. They should hire you as writer.

I don't trust the company's financial future and I wouldn't like their inevitable micromanaging towards their new model lines.

You could volunteer to write fluff for 9th Age.

They politely said no after reading a sample of my work. They said it wouldn't be a good fit.

Hmm, are they allergic to awesome?

Well that was before I had @Slanputin help me edit. Only a light proofreading from @spawning of Bob here and there. I think Bob's shortcomings had something to do with—

While you are handsome and talented, you should get back on point. Also, in case you haven't noticed THIS thread needs some proofreading and you can't blame Bob for your shortcomings.

Fair enough. So the gods influence and strengthen mortals and the mortals influence and strengthen the gods. It's hard to tell who is influencing who.

That puts the fight for good squarely on the shoulders of mortals.

Exactly. A battle between two remote cosmic beings would get old fairly quick. But the human struggle (or skink, elf, ogre, skaven) struggle is gripping on so many levels.

Does a Sigmar/Sotek/Great Maw worshipper still empower Chaos.

Yes. Even as a warrior priest of Sigmar strengthens the Empire's god and receives blessings in return, whenever he slips ups, his lusts, fears, rage, and other dark thoughts feed the Chaos Realm.

That stacks the deck towards misery.

Yes, that's why the world is a crapsack world. Any struggle for something good would involve a lot of pain and sacrifice. And sometimes the good guys fail outright despite their courage and conviction.

You should write stories where good guys suffer and die a lot, or where good guys have to be underhanded and sneaky to advance the greater good through deplorable means.

Good idea, I will think about it.

 

[spawning of Bob]

I choose not to repsond to your childish baiting.

but...

So the gods influence and strengthen mortals and the mortals influence and strengthen the gods.

Which one of us the mortal?

And I like the effort that went into the subliminal wrap up.

 

[Bowser]

Get out

Not one person asked me for part two...

I know you all yearned for my part two. Because no one took the prompting and verbalized what I knew you were all thinking before. I now have to make educated guesses on what you the reader are thinking in response to my prose.

Scalenex's Repsonse Part Two

Okay, so Scalenex brutally explained that the Warhammer world can't sustain greater spiritual beings of pure virtue. You aren't going to see Celestials battle Devils and Demons like in D&D settings. But the Warhammer world is a crapsack world, not a version of Hell itself. There has to be good somewhere or there is no real conflict. No tabletop battles, no fluff.

So what is the consolation prize that the world gets instead of Daemons of Virtue. They get the gods: Sigmar, Sotek, Gork, Mork, Hashut, the Great Horned Rat, the Lady in the Lake. There are 22 Elven gods on page 36 of the Wood Elf army book. There are gods barely mentioned like Manan. There are gods that are only mentioned once in official fluff and never again. There's even a minor local Empire river god mentioned in passing in Scalenex's fluff piece Legacies that not even my biggest fans can name off the top of their head.

What do the gods do? Well that can do magic.

In game terms an Empire Warrior Priest can channel the Winds of Magic, what is essentially a Chaos force, to smite evil or protect good warriors. Why would Chaos let their power be usurped like this.

A Orc Shaman can use Winds of Magic to conjure a giant green foot to step on a bunch of Nurgle Daemons. If Magic is an aspect of Chaos and the Orcs are a Force of Destruction, Gork and Mork shouldn't be able to oppose the forces of Chaos.

So you might say, magic is still dangerous, by letting the mortals have access to magic that seems useful well set up their downfall. I don't buy it. Magic is critical to winning most games in crunch terms. In fluff terms magic saves the bacon of just about every faction at some point or another.



Well a lot of gods don't power magic users. Why do think Phoenix Guard and Savage Orcs have Ward saves? Heck, any implausible abilities can be credited to the gods. So could swings of luck. You could also credit the gods with inspiring their followers to great deeds.



Why thank you for leading into my next point. Daemons are pure embodiments of Chaos, but the various gods of the Warhammer world are not pure. They all have good and aspects.



Kind of. So you start with a "Daemon" of pure valor that embodies the chivalric ideal. Slaanesh would eat such a being alive, but this hypothetical proto-Daemon instinctively searches for a new source of power. These legends of the warrior Sigmar are growing with each retelling. Behold, this proto-Daemon of Valor morphs into Sigmar. Not the real warrior, the legend of Sigmar. While Sigmar is a great source of goodness reflecting valor and courage he also embodies the hierarchy of social tiers. Sigmar carries a peace of the prejudices and fears of the people of the Empire.

Gork and Mork are REALLY extreme. They started as the embodiment the ideals of Brutality and Cunning. They latched onto the greenskins for strength. Centuries of the adoration of generations of Orcs and Goblins has gradually shaped them until they are now indistinguishable.

Skaven lifespans are short and they are born en masse. That means the Horned Rat absorbs the hopes, fears, and ambitions of A LOT more mortals than any other god. Who knows what concept the Horned Rat used to stand for.



Yes. Well that and a lack of nuance with GW writers.



I don't trust the company's financial future and I wouldn't like their inevitable micromanaging towards their new model lines.



They politely said no after reading a sample of my work. They said it wouldn't be a good fit.



Well that was before I had @Slanputin help me edit. Only a light proofreading from @spawning of Bob here and there. I think Bob's shortcomings had something to do with—



Fair enough. So the gods influence and strengthen mortals and the mortals influence and strengthen the gods. It's hard to tell who is influencing who.



Exactly. A battle between two remote cosmic beings would get old fairly quick. But the human struggle (or skink, elf, ogre, skaven) struggle is gripping on so many levels.



Yes. Even as a warrior priest of Sigmar strengthens the Empire's god and receives blessings in return, whenever he slips ups, his lusts, fears, rage, and other dark thoughts feed the Chaos Realm.



Yes, that's why the world is a crapsack world. Any struggle for something good would involve a lot of pain and sacrifice. And sometimes the good guys fail outright despite their courage and conviction.



Good idea, I will think about it.

Get out of my head @Scalenex !

 

[RoseThorn]

... Will there be a Part 3?

 

[Aginor]

Great necromancy, @RoseThorn !
That way I had the opportunity to find and read through this thread. And it is very interesting since now we have some more AoS lore and can slowly see how things work.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Great necromancy, @RoseThorn !
That way I had the opportunity to find and read through this thread. And it is very interesting since now we have some more AoS lore and can slowly see how things work.

Can't class it as a Necro as @RoseThorn is the author of the post.