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Discussion Daemons of Order

@Crowsfoot fair enough. Still kiiinda necro for me since the topic is so old. But necro can be a good thing. In the forums I moderated over the years I was always fond of necros since they are often useful. But we are not here to talk about undead but about demons. :D


So to the topic of celestial demons and good vs. evil:

Me being someone who is both new to the Warhammer lore, and dislikes crapsack worlds in general, you will probably not be too surprised that I dislike the old Warhammer lore. 40K is even worse than Fantasy IMO.
There are literally no good guys. The ones qualifiying as "good" for some people in that world are T'au. And as a D&D fan I strongly disagree. In fact I disagree so strongly I just went full Khrushchev, took off one of my shoes and pounded the table with it. My coworkers think I am insane.

I don't know much about T'au, but I know enough to say that T'au are not generally good guys. They are maybe the good guys compared to some other factions, but that's like saying (sorry for the real world comparison) Saudi-Arabia is a free country because the people there are less oppressed than people in North Korea. In fact North Korea would probably pass as the good guys in the 40K world. T'au are lawful evil, I have no doubt about that. They are an expansionist empire, and it seems their definition of good means that they rule and everyone follows their rules.

Now back to demons:
When I started to read AoS lore and how Seraphon work, and when reading the part about celestial demons I immediately thought of D&D and regular celestials there. I'd say Seraphon are much less evil than their fantasy counterparts from what I can see. No lobotomized slaves and such stuff. In Fantasy it seems they were pretty much lawful neutral. The "lawful" part comes from the extreme order they seemingly embodied, with the Great Plan and so on. They weren't evil in D&D terms because that would imply selfishness, and they weren't really selfish. They did thing because they had to be done, the Slann being huge powerful biological computers computing the best solutions to thge problems that were preventing them from fulfilling the plan. and if someone was in the way he had to move or die. That's neither good nor evil.
Now with AoS things changed I think. They did shift quite a bit towards good. But I still struggle to call them "Lawful Good" because they do not act altruistic. They fight Chaos, because that's what they always have done, because it was their original purpose. They cannot stop so what they do is not "good", it just happens to be helpful to the good guys.
...which brings me to Stormcast Eternals. From what I know that Sigmar guy is a pretty OK guy, I'd say we have some Lawful Good Celestial army there.

btw: In some newer D&D publications "Outsider" is the general term anyway (for anything coming from another plane of existence than the mortal plane, such as the gods' and demigods' planes or the elemental planes), with Demons and Devils being evil Outsiders and Angels and Devas and a few others being good (or evil or neutral depending on their gods) Outsiders, and Elementals being neutral Outsiders. I see the Warhammer term of "Demon" more akin to that than to something related to good or evil, while the Warhammer term of "Celestial" is only used for good ones, just as it is used in D&D for good Outsiders.

I perceive the Warhammer AoS world is still much more Order vs. Chaos than good vs. evil. The Destruction faction is fighting the Chaos faction, but that's more for survival than anything else, Orruks and Grots fight the Order guys or even each other just as enthusiastically it seems. I'd say "Chaotic Neutral" is a pretty good D&D alignment label for them.
The Death faction is clearly more lawful than both Chaos and Destruction, so they are closer to the Order side. They might still side for pretty much anyone because with wars and everyone dying (except Chaos demons, Seraphon and Stormcast) and such they are in a win-win situation I guess? Lawful evil to Lawful neutral I think. The Death guys are a bit more active and more inhomogenous than undead in most fantasy settings.

The other question of this thread is also interesting for me. Could a chaos demon be good? I don't know. I tend to say no. His deeds may be perceived good by some, but from what I read it is pretty much impossible for those guys to even have altruistic feelings, so if he does something perceived as "good" it is either some kind of trick, or a side effect he probably doesn't even know or care about. It is more of the nature of Chaos (randomness) than something on the good-evil axis.
 
The way Morality works in WHFB is kind skewed, it's the whole idea of the lesser of two evils, which is worse: eternal torture at the hands of GW's versions of Satan, or a messed up mix of democracy and monarchy that takes the worst parts of both and adds religious fanaticism into the mix. The reason my 'March of Sigmar' is believable is because all it takes for that is one charismatic man and nation-scale problems to turn a nation to commit atrocities.
Just ask a certain nation in 1933, although that is an extreme example. I'm not going that extreme- I hope- but this would be why good daemons wouldn't be too common, but the others mentioned that it is a very chaotic thing to occur.
I think the issue very few touched on is that @RoseThorn never said Daemons of Good but Daemons of Order
Now, the reaction you instinctively have may be 'po-tay-to po-tah-to' and my answer to that is: Who the F&$£*%£^*(£^%"*@@£% says po-tah-to!?
Seriously though, Order ≠ Good. To use the above example again, that was brimming with order, they even attempted genocide in an orderly fashion.
The issue is that the Daemons are products of emotion, Evil ones from negative emotions, Good ones from positive emotions. Now remember good is not always nice, the evil ones are in it for the murdering and raping, the good ones are in it for their chaotic perception of good.
So, to create a Daemon of Order there has to be enough cold calculations. Logic, not heart. I, Robot said it, the robot saved Will Smith because he was more likely to survive. This is the sort of decision-making that would result in Daemons of Order
The reaction of "The Daemons are charging, I need to get everyone out of here" versus "The Daemons are charging, leave the sick and elderly to slow them down" Decisions devoid of emotion.
Thus, the First would actually result in plenty of Daemons of Order, just not enough compared to the Chaotic ones.
Think about it just in the Esurciverse, Tari versus Alxebren both are definitely Chaos Daemons, but Tari certainly isn't evil and Alxebren certainly isn't good. Everyone said something along the lines of Daemons of Good or Daemons of Light etc. Inherently good Daemons would likely be quite common, but inherently orderly Daemons is what he was seeking and that is entirely different.
There is a distinct possibility that you could fight against Daemons of Order nad not realise they aren't Chaotic until after the battle is over.
 
Kcibrihp-Esurc said:
The way Morality works in WHFB is kind skewed, it's the whole idea of the lesser of two evils, which is worse: eternal torture at the hands of GW's versions of Satan, or a messed up mix of democracy and monarchy that takes the worst parts of both and adds religious fanaticism into the mix. The reason my 'March of Sigmar' is believable is because all it takes for that is one charismatic man and nation-scale problems to turn a nation to commit atrocities.
Just ask a certain nation in 1933, although that is an extreme example. I'm not going that extreme- I hope- but this would be why good daemons wouldn't be too common, but the others mentioned that it is a very chaotic thing to occur.
I think the issue very few touched on is that @RoseThorn never said Daemons of Good but Daemons of Order
Now, the reaction you instinctively have may be 'po-tay-to po-tah-to' and my answer to that is: Who the F&$£*%£^*(£^%"*@@£% says po-tah-to!?
Seriously though, Order ≠ Good. To use the above example again, that was brimming with order, they even attempted genocide in an orderly fashion.
The issue is that the Daemons are products of emotion, Evil ones from negative emotions, Good ones from positive emotions. Now remember good is not always nice, the evil ones are in it for the murdering and raping, the good ones are in it for their chaotic perception of good.
So, to create a Daemon of Order there has to be enough cold calculations. Logic, not heart. I, Robot said it, the robot saved Will Smith because he was more likely to survive. This is the sort of decision-making that would result in Daemons of Order
The reaction of "The Daemons are charging, I need to get everyone out of here" versus "The Daemons are charging, leave the sick and elderly to slow them down" Decisions devoid of emotion.
Thus, the First would actually result in plenty of Daemons of Order, just not enough compared to the Chaotic ones.
Think about it just in the Esurciverse, Tari versus Alxebren both are definitely Chaos Daemons, but Tari certainly isn't evil and Alxebren certainly isn't good. Everyone said something along the lines of Daemons of Good or Daemons of Light etc. Inherently good Daemons would likely be quite common, but inherently orderly Daemons is what he was seeking and that is entirely different.
There is a distinct possibility that you could fight against Daemons of Order nad not realise they aren't Chaotic until after the battle is over.
Click to expand...

I didn't think I'd ever say that, but I think Nazis are a good example to show that difference.
Nazis were paragons of order. There were hardly any comparable societies in world history, they took it to a new level. They tolerated chaos only on very few levels, and even that was organized (such as some of the more "chaotic" atrocities).
So their alignment: Lawful evil.

...and it was not good as we all know.

There are incredibly evil factions in warhammer which belong to Order.

Order has nothing to do with Good, and Chaos does not have to be evil. The D&D alignment system might be old but it is rather fitting since it is two dimensional.
My main gripe with it is actually that it could be finer in some points, sometimes it is hard to judge between neutral and evil for example.
 
One should note that to medieval rulers, theologians, philosophers and even peasants, chaos was considered evil and order was considered good. Games Workshop fluff writers are probably not as introspective as we are, but I'm sure they applied the medieval philosophy to an ostensibly medieval setting on purpose. The idea that order can be evil is a relatively modern concept.
 
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Daemons in Warhammer are weird, but i´ll do my best in trying too explain them. The gods of chaos feed of emotion, not just bad emotions, but all emotions and feelings. Whenever you get slightly angry about anything, you empower Khorne. When you feel sick you empower Nurgle. If you change your opinion, you empower Tzeentch and whenever you have a naughty thought, you grant more power too Slaanesh. The more powerful the emotion, the more power is given too the dark gods. example: making love with your signifigent other will grant some power too Slaanesh, but not that much. If you ram a 16 inch spiked dragon dildo up a crack hooker's fecal disposal, it will create a stronger feeling of perversion in both participants. Same thing goes with the other gods. The more gruesome and gory a murder, changeing the outcome of an important election, being infected with a super deadly disease. The greater the effect and longlivity of an action, the more power will be giving too chaos gods.

Now where do Daemons fit into this? Daemons are fragments of their patron god, all actions a demon take is too further the agenda of their god and generate more emotions and feelings. Daemons can have individuality such as names and aspirations, but will always follow the agenda of their god. A daemon can never convert, feel pity or remorse, and if a daemon actully helps you, it's because it wants something.
 
Kcibrihp-Esurc said:
The way Morality works in WHFB is kind skewed, it's the whole idea of the lesser of two evils, which is worse: eternal torture at the hands of GW's versions of Satan, or a messed up mix of democracy and monarchy that takes the worst parts of both and adds religious fanaticism into the mix. The reason my 'March of Sigmar' is believable is because all it takes for that is one charismatic man and nation-scale problems to turn a nation to commit atrocities.
Just ask a certain nation in 1933, although that is an extreme example. I'm not going that extreme- I hope- but this would be why good daemons wouldn't be too common, but the others mentioned that it is a very chaotic thing to occur.
I think the issue very few touched on is that @RoseThorn never said Daemons of Good but Daemons of Order
Now, the reaction you instinctively have may be 'po-tay-to po-tah-to' and my answer to that is: Who the F&$£*%£^*(£^%"*@@£% says po-tah-to!?
Seriously though, Order ≠ Good. To use the above example again, that was brimming with order, they even attempted genocide in an orderly fashion.
The issue is that the Daemons are products of emotion, Evil ones from negative emotions, Good ones from positive emotions. Now remember good is not always nice, the evil ones are in it for the murdering and raping, the good ones are in it for their chaotic perception of good.
So, to create a Daemon of Order there has to be enough cold calculations. Logic, not heart. I, Robot said it, the robot saved Will Smith because he was more likely to survive. This is the sort of decision-making that would result in Daemons of Order
The reaction of "The Daemons are charging, I need to get everyone out of here" versus "The Daemons are charging, leave the sick and elderly to slow them down" Decisions devoid of emotion.
Thus, the First would actually result in plenty of Daemons of Order, just not enough compared to the Chaotic ones.
Think about it just in the Esurciverse, Tari versus Alxebren both are definitely Chaos Daemons, but Tari certainly isn't evil and Alxebren certainly isn't good. Everyone said something along the lines of Daemons of Good or Daemons of Light etc. Inherently good Daemons would likely be quite common, but inherently orderly Daemons is what he was seeking and that is entirely different.
There is a distinct possibility that you could fight against Daemons of Order nad not realise they aren't Chaotic until after the battle is over.
Click to expand...

This is the way I perceive the fluff of daemons and thier patron gods.
To elaborate the patron god of order is the god of oppression and autocracy, therefore the daemons of order are daemons of oppression.
The god of order is empowered every time a worker gets in time to his job, every time your army matches in those strait lines, every time a man beats his wife, every time a ruler judges a criminal may it be execution for stealing a apple. All of this fits into order order in the extreme is oppression. Same way love in the extreme is Slaneesh and honor can feed Khorn.

The Seraphon fits perfectly into this daemons of oppression, order and cold-blooded logic. (The only thing that could make them more passionate is that they used to be Morthal)

P.s. Alfa barusa made a "if the emperor had a text to speech device" episode ones where Magnus explained the "good" duality of chaos
 
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