I think the only thing that will prevent people from bringing a big unit of witches is the prohibitive cost of the actual models. Otherwise, the fact that they fill the core tax and create a huge headache for most opponents should be enough (in theoryhammer) for most armies to include the unit. The witches kind of remind me of Savage Orc Big Uns - a frenzied piece of nasty that comes out of core points. At the tournaments I have been to recently, you see most Orc n' Gobbo players with this unit.... I think the witches will become the equivalent of the savage orcs (except even better than the Orcs), and will be pretty standard in new Dark Elf armies. I also think that a unit of say 40 witch elves with the cauldron is not even getting into the true death star category in terms of points. I really don't see a huge downside for dark elf players in fielding this unit (other than maybe the negative aspects of frenzy). A player can put this unit into an army, and still have plenty left for the other toys.
Hello guys! ^^ I'm new to (posting in) the forums. Is the stat line of the witch elves the same as before? If I'm not wrong, they still have S3 and no armour saves, do they? I don't have access to the book
I've given the book a good look over now, and I don't think we're going to see a lot of Witchstars after things settle down. Its subject to just one too many weaknesses without the right tools to deal with high armour. That being said, I think it will be popular to begin with (So get practicing on your Skink redirection!), but I expect the Cauldron will start joining Executioner units, and then slowly fade out entirely. An MSU Core made up of 2-3 Dark Riders and a mix of Corsairs, Witch Elves and Repeater Crossbows in unit sizes 10-12 is looking fairly popular right now, although its hard to say which of those three infantry will end up on top (a further strength of the book is the nice internal balance here as I'm finding it really tough to decide). RBTs are practically 2+ and Warlocks are 1+. The former are bad for Lizardmen dinosaurs (boo), but great for Ripperdactyls and Chameleon Skinks (hoorah!). The latter are going to cause headaches for a lot of Lizardmen players as they are agile enough to escape the chaff, tough enough to avoid all but concentrated firepower, and strong enough to beat things that you might want to put into combat with them. They might make for good targets for Ripperdactyls if you can pin them down; but even then its iffy. On that note, highly agile Masters on Dark Steeds with 1+ saves and a brace of Repeater Handbows are going to be a Skink's worst nightmare (as if the rest of the book isn't good enough at hunting chaff...). Magic will probably settle back to Death, Metal or Shadow after people try out Dark, except maybe for a level 1 or 2 with the Tome of Furion. Its a fun Lore, but other than the Leadershipbomb list its a bit situational and lacks that edge against the rest of the meta. In the time that its around though it will, once again, play havoc with Skinks. Otherwise you can basically apply the same rules as vs High Elves: don't engage combat blocks except with magic support or overwhelming numbers, except its doubly important to protect your Skink support. Oh, and watch out for level 1 Heavens Sorceresses dropping Iceshard on your Salamanders!
I don't think Metal will be all that popular with access to life, unless they aren't running bolt throwers or executioners, and Death seems a bit unnecessary with the guaranteed Soulblight on Warlocks. I think it will depend on the list though; if they are running witch elves, probably beasts/Shadow will be popular; if they are running Executioners, Life will probably be the lore of choice. Executioners don't need more strength, and the only lore that gives additional attacks is Light, which isn't likely to be popular for Dark elves, considering how unnecessary most of the spells are. Life, on the other hand, gives massive defensive bonuses, prevents miscasting, and keeps their characters alive. Without the need for more offensive potential from their magic due to shooting and the strength in combat, there just isn't a point in lores that provide mostly offense for Dark Elves.
In regards to the Witch-star, how do you think the following Oldblood Cowboy would fair??... Oldblood -Cold One -Great Weapon (to take out the Cauldron) -Dawnstone -Armour of Fortune -Crown of Command In a 3000 point list, I run this guy beside a Slann, so I can even heal lost wounds if need be. I think he may be able to hold the unit up and even take down the Cauldron. An old blood designed specifically to counter this unit might even do better, but this guy is part of my all comers list. I usually place him into a cold one Cav delivery system, that he can charge out of. Just keep him away from the executioners.
Really any Old blood cowboy with dawnstone will be able to hold up the witch star. What really needs to be worried about is the Executioners and shooting. I always run an old blood alongside the slann, usually on foot due to points restraints and to get a look out sir. It's been working out very well, and often I have been able to win games after losing my slann turn one to a miscast or a cannonball just because of how strong that character is. Just tone down the Slann to 400 or less points and you can fit an Old blood with armor of destiny, dawnstone and a great weapon on foot in a 2500 point game.
It doesn't have to be an oldblood - a mounted Scar-vet with Gambler's armor and Dawnstone is almost as tough. Just make sure the Slann is near, since he will be losing most of those combats due to static combat res.
Personally I feel that the crown of command is a must for the whole thing to be reliable. There is always the chance that you wiff on your rolls and the witchstar steam rolls over you due to static combat res.... even with the Slann nearby. Anyone run the numbers on how long a defensive orientated oldblood with crown of command should last against a huge unit of witch elves? I don't have the new DE book, so I only have bits and pieces of information on their new units.
The experience I, and a lot of Lizardmen players, have had with using Life is that it's great for not dying; but not really great for actually killing stuff. This is tough given that there's a lot of Nurgle Warriors and Nurgle Daemons out there with -1 to hit which Life doesn't help with at all, so I expect this to repeat with Dark Elves. Against those things Dark or Shadow is better for the -WS effects. And really, Heavens on a support caster gives you a much better survival rate for less cost/risk (I'm seeing this a lot on Dark Elf lists). Meanwhile, the importance of Death is a) Spirit Leech, b) Purple Sun and c) regaining power dice (which is significant now that both Power of Darkness and the Stabby Dagger are both reduced in efficiency). Life might work in specific lists (ie Executioner Deathstars where all the buffs can go onto one unit, or Monster Spam where you can keep healing them), but I don't think it will be more popular than Shadow, Death or Metal. These three are just too good at the existing meta in dealing damage to high toughness/armour save units. I've been trying to build lists and I keep returning to these three lores because they help against 1+ armour, beat the -1 effect of Nurgle and maximise your attacks. Especially when Executioners don't get re-rolls from Hatred anymore, unless v. High Elves, you need to make sure that their hits count - and there's only one Lore that grants additional attacks (Timewarp in Light), but a bunch of Spells that make it easier to hit.
((5*2+6)*2/3*11/36+16/6)*1/72+5*2/3*5/9*1/18+5/6*1/18= .23148148, or 12-13 rounds with a 4+ ward (Attacks should be enough to mitigate res differences so you don't break) 0.3086419753 with a 5+ ward instead (to allow the points for Crown) Wounds per combat, so ~9-10 rounds with crown This factors in the cauldron being in base to base and the re-rolls to wound from the unit without witches brew.
If you go with 1+ re-roll and 4+ ward, and only touch witches (instead of the cauldron), the super frenzy witch (12 from the front, 6 from support), isn't going to kill the old blood. It's ~7 wounding hits a turn (mostly from poison), and you save on 2+,2+,4+. ~0.10 wounds per turn, about 29-30 rounds of combat to drop you. The downside is, with a BSB in the unit, you're going up against static combat res of 5 with a musician, and swinging on 5+ ward witches. With other tricksters shard, those witches are re-rolling their ward. Between oldblood, predator fighter and cold one attacks, you're dishing out 3 to 4 unsaved wounds per turn. And losing combat by 1 to 2 per turn. You are far more likely to break then die. You can reduce the ward save to get a crown of command, but then you risk killing blow via assassin. Also, going head to head against an army packing units of S6 killing blow guys, I'm not sure cowboy is the way to go.
I say just stay away from the executioners. The Cowboy has the speed advantage and a horde of witch elves provides a nice screen. Then use magic, salamanders, skinks to drop the executioners. I don't have the new DE book, but I've heard the executioners are fairly expensive, so there won't be a lot of those units running around. What is the defence like on an executioner. I just like the idea of a witch-star unit being held up for the entire game by a cowboy who costs about a third of the points.
Just to be clear, Matt's calculation was correct. 18 attacks * (1/6) = 3 poison hits 18 attacks * (2/6) = 6 normal hits 9 rerolls * (1/6) = 1.5 more poison hits 9 rerolls * (2/6) = 3 more normal hits 9 normal hits * (1/6) = 1.5 wounds 7.5 rerolls * (1/6) = 1.25 wounds Total wounds = 4.5 poison + 2.75 regular = 7.25 wounds Armor + Ward = 7.25 * (1/6) * (1/6) * (3/6) = 0.1007 wounds per combat
For the old blood not being in base contact with the Cauldron, yes. Either way, the Old blood isn't dying to a witch unit.
So is the Old Blood better off trying to get into base contact with the cauldron in order to take it down or to simply try and avoid it and hack apart witch elves?
You hit the cauldron on 3's, and wound on 3's. It saves on 4+ (ward) and you should have the other tricksters shard (forces re-roll wards). You're going to do ~2 wounds, and lose combat by ~2 to 3. If you can keep a Ld10 slaan nearby, you might want to go for the cauldron. It will take a few rounds and you're taking tests every round. -Matt
As a Dark Elf player, some comments: (+ means better for points cost with new rules; - means worse for points cost with new rules than before) Just to clarify murderous prowess special rule specifically excludes mounts on the first page where the rule is discussed, so even if a model with mount has murderous prowess the rule only benefits the riders and not the mount. Gains: ASF (high I means re-rolling to hit against most opposing units, especially lizardmen; executioners no longer need an ASF death hag BSB in unit) Murderous Prowess (re-rolling 1's to wound is under-rated., the weakness of S3 and S4 elves ia partially addressed increasing the rate of wounding by at least 1/6) Dark Steeds are fast cav, meaning that characters on dark steeds can vanguard with fast cav units. and gain feigned flight rules (can march and shoot if they rally after fleeing a charge, instead of merely reforming) Loss: No longer have hatred except against high elves and Black Guard. Not much of a loss against lizardmen, which tend to lack ASF and don't have high I to negate re-rolls with ASF. No longer have the pendant of khaleth with its high effective ward save to high S attacks to make an "unkillable" stubborn dreadlord. Mages no longer innately know the power of darkness spell and the spell is now a signature spell that gives the mage's using +1S and recovers D3 power dice, so it no longer is cheap and easy way to boost power dice. You will likely see a lot of variation in Dark Elf lists. One variant is the witch elf horde with death hag and cauldron precisely because the cauldron buffs continue even if the death hag is killed and a 5+ ward on a block of witches is huge. Also, because high armour saves are the biggest bane to witches, expect to see the razor standard on such a unit. In core, the best choices are: Witch Elves (either large with cauldron or in basic 10 witch blocks), their madness rule limits the use of characters other than death hags and assassins in this unit Corsairs (+, ASF plus increased range of handbows and 4+AS in combat makes this a great core unit, smaller units with repeater hand bows used to screen witches or executioner blocks or larger units with two hand weapons even if as command or sac dagger bunker for lvl 4 on foot) Dark Riders (+. less expensive, gained ASF, and 4+ AS with fast cav, some people will play larger units of these and max core this unit in some armies) Repeater crossbowmen (-, made more expensive but were uncosted before and still a decent choice) You will see dreadspears (-, spearmen) and dreadswords (-, sword and shiled) but the mandatory shield and increase in points cost makes them a lot less attractive and they may be used primiarly for a sac dagger llv 4 bunker in competitive lists if at all. In special, executioners (+) are great for the points, ASF means that they strike with great weapons at initiativ e order without re-rolling to hit but murderous prowess is effectively a re-roll to wound against T4 or less and KB will ravage characters on foot and standard cav), the T3 and 5=AS and loss of options to protect them is their weakness. Dark Elves discuss using lore of life on lvl 1 or 2 in unit for regen and lvl 4 with life for flesh to stone to protect them; other options include 5+ scaly skin from lore of metal) black guard (=) are more expensive points wise and retain re-roll to hit plus gain ASF and murderous prowess. That makes this unit quite deadly in combat until it gets up against high T6+ or 2+ or 1+ AS units. The problem is that T3 and 5+ AS and S4 with halberds limits this unit in terms of getting shot up before getting into combat and being depleted in combat absent some decent augments. repeater bolt throwers (+) with lower cost and S4 AP for 6 shots and S6 no AS and penetrating ranks, do not be surprised if you see DE armies with the max of 4 up to 2999 points. It is one of the few means dark elves will have to threaten high armour save and tough multiwoound models. Daemon princes will suffer with these on the table. cold one knights (barely +) This unit gained +1 S$ attack by the mount and ASF and murderous prowess for the riders. For that reason, you may still see people run this unit with a dreadlord and/or master for the high mundane armour saves. The increase in points costs makes this less points efficient but worth playing. shades (+): no change in point cost but gained ASF and murd prowess)-with harpies made more expensive, people will consider this scouting unit as the alternative if not running dark rider units or peg masters/lords. With AHW and GW options and ASF, you may see GWs on these as a specialty unit. hydras: (-): they got hit with the nerf bat and loss of handlers hurdts their LD. They are still worth their points, most likely with the breath weapon upgrade. They will be used to some extent as a screen but need to be kept within range of lord or at least BSB to avoid failed panic tests and to stay in combat. Harpies: if they are destroyed, or flee through units, they can now cause panic now and are more expensive with no real gains. Don't expect to see them. Cold One Chariots (-): +1 attack per mount and ASF and murd p for riders does not compensate for stupidity and increased points cost/, you not see this unit a lot scroungerunner chariot; not really worth playing. The special harpoon is a threat to monsters but not enough of a threat on a T4 5+ AS chariot for that points cost. You may see this unit occasionally for fun or testing purpoese but I do not expect to see a lot of play. Rare: The only rare unit really worth playing is the doomfire warlocks. You can get a unit with two known spells, 4+ ward, s4 with two attacks each, fast cav, ASF and murd prow for not much more than a lvl 3 on foot and their miscast consequences are reduced to D3 wounds on the unit with the ward save allowed. Do not be surprised to see two of these units,, a bit larger unit with a lvl 3 or even lvl 4 on dark steed Characters: the new lord level characters are really not points efficient relative to dreadlords. You may see a high beastmaster on a manticore maybe. Otherwise, expect to see dreadlords, masters, and sorceresses (lord and hero level). The sea dragon cloak is a 5+ scaly skin save now. This allows a Dark Elf dreadlord or master to obtain a high 2+ or 1+ armour save on foot with just the cloak and heavy armour and a magic armour item and/or shield. It is easier to get to a 1+ AS on a mount. A common mounts for solo characters is likely to be a peg. This mount gives T4 to rider and +1 wound to a master and fear and flying. With the changes to harpies, a master or dreadlord on a peg is l.ikely to be viewed as essential for dealing with war machines and chariots. Since the peg points cost did not increase and the cloak of twilight gives a character a 3++ ward to shooting and spells + killing blow and multiwounds D3 in the first round of combat, expect to see a dreadlord or master on a peg with the cloak of twlight in army lists. This is called the "dirty harry build". With the cloak being an enchanted item and not a talisman, a dreadlord can have the cloak of twilight with a 1+ AS rerollable with dawnstone on a peg (T4 and no longer exposes to killing blow) and a decent weapon and/or cheap magic armour item. The D3 wounds and killing blow in the first ronnd of combat will make the dreadlord effective in combating monsters and chariots and war machines if the weapon increases the S (halberd for +1S still rerolliing to hit, GW hitting on I, or lance for +2S on charge). The peg gets S5 on the charge as well. With dark steeds gaining the fast cav rule, it will be more likely to see characters on dark steeds to give them mobility and evasiveness and M9 siwtftstirde speed. Death hags are only useful in allowing one to take a caudron of blood as a mount. They have no innate ward save or evasive ability absent being in a unit with a cauldron when the gain a 5+ ward save and they can only take one of three gifts of khaine as previously discussed and a magic weapon up to 50 points. The Cauldron is T6, 4++ ward and 6+ AS with S5 and 5 wounds. The death hag on the cauldron is kind of silly other than its own attacks and allowing one to take the cauldron. If the death hag dies, the cauldron still functions and gives its benefits to its unit of a ward save (6+ ward generally to models in its unit and 5+ to witches, hags, and assassins in its unit, re-roll to wound for all models in units within 6" that have murderous prowess). The bound spell 3 of frenzy or superfrenzy on units with frenzy already is worthwhile. The 5+ ward to witches, hags and assassins in the unit with the caauldron (run much like a plague furnace) is the best use of the cauldron. Given the cost of the death hag and cauldron, I expect to see it run primarily in a witch elf horde unit, possibly with witches brew on the death hag to give the unit super frenzy (2 extra attacks instead of one due to frenzy but -3LD in test to restrain from having to charge). The caudron will sort of put the opposing unit in combat in a bind. The witches with cauldron will deal out so many attacks, rerolling to wound and usually rerolling to hit as to force you to take a ton of saves and rack up combat resolution and deplete your unit such that you will feel presure to get up CR and reduce the witch elf ranks but the cauldron needs to be ultimately killed to take away the ward save and the re-roll to wound ability of the witches and that will take time with it having T6, 5 wounds and a 4+ ward save. Targetting the death hag in combat does very little usually, because killing her typically only takes away her attacks. The cauldron also counts as equivalent to 15 witches in a unit (see BRB p. 98 on characters in unit when the footprint fits within the unit), which means that ten witches (one file on each side of the caudron ) can yield five ranks and when run with 3 witches on one side and four on the other side of the cauldron, the unit counts as a horde (7 witches plus the 60mm wide cauldron). A unit of 35 witches plus a cauldron can, thus, start out as a horde five ranks deep You might see a death hag on cauldron with a large exec horde adjacent to another unit (within 6" of the cauldron) suich as black guard just becauise of the re-roll ot wound benefit, the 6+ werd +MR1 benefits the unit with the cauldron when targetted by most direct damage and magic missile spells, and witches brew incrreases the number of attacks for its unit and its unit can carry characters in it.
Going for the Witch elves is probably a better idea. You will kill more of them and lose combat by less, though it really won't matter, considering you won't be taking wounds regardless. In addition, it will help you thin out the unit, so you might be able to hit it with something else later and kill it.