8th Ed. Dealing with warmachines & dwarvern gunlines

[Pepticsalve]

Wait until you play against a wood elf gunline.

I've played against WE's with my HE's - it was a pretty boring match up as well - but I could get into combat much quicker and fire back at decent range...

 

[SilverFaith]

Wait until you play against a wood elf gunline.

WEs are fine because they die like flies when attacked. By anything - skink javs, skink melee, whatever. They might go first, and they might reroll to hit, but they are still pitiful at killing things.

Dwarves are boring because you can barely hurt them, and that 5+ parry save is just unnecessarily tough to deal with on top of their already good armour save and toughness. So aside from having to hit CC first, without losing half your army to random shooting, you can't even do much once you get there.

Elves crumble when hit by a Sauruus block. It has to get there, sure, but if it does... "poof" the elves have left the battlefield.

 

[Stuntyogre]

Wait until you play against a wood elf gunline.

WEs are fine because they die like flies when attacked. By anything - skink javs, skink melee, whatever. They might go first, and they might reroll to hit, but they are still pitiful at killing things.

Dwarves are boring because you can barely hurt them, and that 5+ parry save is just unnecessarily tough to deal with on top of their already good armour save and toughness. So aside from having to hit CC first, without losing half your army to random shooting, you can't even do much once you get there.

Elves crumble when hit by a Sauruus block. It has to get there, sure, but if it does... "poof" the elves have left the battlefield.

Dwarfs can be rough for us for sure, I walked over a number of Lizardmen players with my Dawi. Wood Elves I'm not even sure against, trueflight and hagbane are such a brutal tag team and they outrange us so well. God forbid they go fast cav heavy, oh you have a fast unit, Thorny Sisters will curse you into a pit of molasses, you have a skink cloud, meet trueflight and way watchers. The best bet against them may be Tetto, you can counter vanguard and drop comets to force them forward on our terms. Tetto works wonders against dwarfs too for the same reasons

 

[n810]

Wait until you play against a wood elf gunline.

.....
Elves crumble when hit by a Sauruus block. It has to get there, sure, but if it does... "poof" the elves have left the battlefield.

My problem is cathing something other that Driads with my saurus wariors.
also getting skinks close enough to their shooting units before all the skinks die.

 

[Pinktaco]

Wait until you play against a wood elf gunline.

.....
Elves crumble when hit by a Sauruus block. It has to get there, sure, but if it does... "poof" the elves have left the battlefield.

My problem is cathing something other that Driads with my saurus wariors.
also getting skinks close enough to their shooting units before all the skinks die.

This. Skinks against trueflight? Those guys hits on 3+, wounds on 3+ and have armour piercing.

Alternatively WEs can do the avoidance list much better than us which isn't exactly funny either.

 

[SilverFaith]

This. Skinks against trueflight? Those guys hits on 3+, wounds on 3+ and have armour piercing.

Alternatively WEs can do the avoidance list much better than us which isn't exactly funny either.

So they waste 150 points shooting on a 70 points unit? 10 men against 10 men? So hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, 6+ AS (with shields)... So they average 4 wounds on them?

Why are you afraid of this? I don't get it. It will take on average 3 turns to wipe them out.

Hagbane is just poison. You know, the thing we have en masse on our skinks. Even with their better range, it still isn't all that bad, considering each archer costs 15 points per archer with this arrow.

Wood Elves are not a bad army. But you are afraid of the wrong units.

 

[Pinktaco]

If not the ranged units what should I be afraid of? All their melee units with the exception of wild riders (who generally comes in limited quantity) are laughable.

They can probably turn out 50 trueflight shots a turn and stay as far back as possible (within range). Most skinks will be killed before they reach the archers and the rest will be decimated by wild riders. Our saurus blocks will be danced around or redirected by eagles. Our scar vets will be shot by waywatchers or risk getting hold up by curse of anrahir.

I have a WE friend and he have gone away from masses bows because nobody enjoys playing with him. Even if it turns out to be a draw people will be bored to death.

**EDIT**

Figured I'd try and find out what one can get at 2500pts as a WE player:

Lvl 4 shadow on steed, 4+ ward.
Glade captain with hail of doom and GW.
Waystalker with bow of lothren.
Lvl 1 scroll caddy, shadow.

50 trueflight archers.
20 poison scouts.
5 wild riders.
5 sisters as mage bunker.

2 eagles.
20 waywatchers.

None of this is meant to combat any blocks. Should the withering get on a scar vets he's gone, if not he will just lose a wound each turn. This is obviosuly assuming the SV have a ward.

Skinks WILL die and fair enough, they're cheap, but that's a trap to lure yourself into. If you haven't gotten any substantial points from your opponent and you've lost all your skinks you've probably lost the game.

Now, can we count this? Sure go ahead and tailor a list, but in general terms a WE gunline is hard and boring to deal with for most armies and what I came up with isn't tailored to deal with LM, I just consider trueflight to be superior in most instances. Fortunately our army is better suited to deal with it compared to many other.

The reason I dislike the WE army more than the dwarf is because with the dwarfs you can atleas expect to see combat. With woodies that's not necessarily a thing. Also WE got magic and shadow have a wonderful synergy with massed bows, it's just a bonus the initiative spells work better against us oppose to some other armies.

 

[SilverFaith]

Pinktaco, what you need to remember is target saturation.

50 trueflight arrows means 5 blocks of archers. For that amount of points, you can field 15 skink cohort blocks. As we established, they'll take out about 4 skinks per unit per turn. So 3 of those 5 blocks is dedicated to killing 1 of our 15 blocks. Even if it takes 4 turns to get close, which is unlikely, you have lost 6-7 blocks of skinks, and still have 8-9 blocks left. So about 6 or 7 skink cohort units should actually be enough. That also saves you a hell of a lot points, and lets your heavier troops move in.

And this should obviously just be the screen. Now you charge your actual combat block into them, and finish off the archer blocks.

If they can redirect you all over the board, you are using your own redirecters wrong, especially considering how few redirecters the list you made has, compared to the usual skink cloud.

Dwarves are a problem because getting close is a problem, and doing something when you finally get there, is ALSO a problem. WE is easy as all hell to deal with as soon as you hit CC. If they were as bad as you claim, armies like VC would be chanceless against them, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Probably comes down to personal opinion, but I like the WE as an enemy, for the same reason my Dark Eldar army likes Tau in 40k. It's tough as hell to get into CC, but when you do, I always brighten up and enjoy myself. It's the exact same with Lizardmen against Wood Elves. Against dwarves, it feels like I'm playing against a Tau army that suddenly morphs into terminators when I hit CC. The best way of dealing with them is lore of metal, or Purple Sun, a spell that can VERY easily eat your own army if you aren't careful.

 

[borkbork]

And this should obviously just be the screen. Now you charge your actual combat block into them, and finish off the archer blocks. .

And then they just flee!

You also seem to forget about panic. Your skink cohort blocks can not all be covered by the general andd those cohorts will take a panic test after three kills. And with thei skink ld none will make it across the board.

You also seem to forget the dude has magic and some other units in his army that can easily deal with decimated skink units.

Anyway imho you over simplifying things a bit or you have very lousy we players in your area.

 

[SilverFaith]

You also seem to forget the dude has magic and some other units in his army that can easily deal with decimated skink units.

So do we. Potentially the same lores, in fact.

Bastiladons are extremely good at thinning out archer blocks. Depending on the type of magic you go with, it will easily be BETTER at killing their few and expensive blocks, than he is at killing your numerous and cheap blocks.

Ld5 is bad, but with coldblooded, you have a fair chance of making it. Even if you flee, you can always rally. Ld5 coldblooded isn't as bad as you think it is. It is almost the equivalent of Ld7, which is pretty average. Above 50% chance of making it means they almost HAVE to keep shooting at them, or risk losing out on the kill point.

I have won games because my opponent had to shift his focus from my skinks to my saurus blocks. 1 more turn of shooting, and he would likely have gotten about 300 additionl points. But he didn't, and that lost him the game. He hoped they wouldn't regroup, but with 50% chance of that happening, it's just extremely unlikely.

Magic have served me incredibly well, especially because they always seem to make blocks of more than 10 archers. Through a Fiery convocation on them, and WBW either a unit meant to draw fire (Cold one unit, terradons, etc.), or on that large combat block of temple guards you want to get into close combat, and watch as his trueflight arrows because useless because they can't properly damage them and pierce their armour.

WE are a good and balanceed army, but they suffer the same weakness they did before - the player needs to be VERY good to pull it off properly, because of their overspecialization. trueflight arrows are useless against Temple Guards, with or without magic support, so if he brings 50 of them to deal with a skink cloud list, he needs insane lu-ck to win that battle.

Unlike dwarfs, which basically just spend the first couple of turns earning them killpoints, and then spend the last few turns not giving you any, thus winning the game.

 

[borkbork]

You also seem to forget the dude has magic and some other units in his army that can easily deal with decimated skink units.

So do we. Potentially the same lores, in fact.

Fair enuf

And yeah bastiladons are potentially deadly for woodies (like all magic missiles) so they will be a priority to dispel. And since he has an avoidance style list he can let the combat buffs etc go through so he should have enough dispel dice for the bastiladons. And the bastiladons will not see turn 2 alive (armor ignoring waywatchers shots).

Ld 5 with coldblood is indeed equivalent to ld 7, but that still is 50/50% chance tio fail and in the first few turns he doesn't need to score points he will only need to delay you and he can do the round up later. I agree with you that than can backfire, but usually shouldn't.

But the main issue is that your combat units are relatively slow so that you will usually end up catching one enemy unit but never enough of them to outway the points the Woodies score with their shooting.

 

[SilverFaith]

And yeah bastiladons are potentially deadly for woodies (like all magic missiles) so they will be a priority to dispel. And since he has an avoidance style list he can let the combat buffs etc go through so he should have enough dispel dice for the bastiladons. And the bastiladons will not see turn 2 alive (armor ignoring waywatchers shots).

Waywatchers going for your Bastiladon is cash. I wish my local WE would focus on my basti, but he always shoots down my characters, especially if they are lone/in a CO bus. He is generally confident in his ability to dispel it, though that usually means he uses 1 or 2 dice more than me, giving me a lot of free room to blow him up with my Slanns spells.

Most WE players will also remember to do something about your "combat buffs" even before CC, because Wyssans on T4 makes them virtually unkillable by their archers.

And if the basti takes 2 turns of shooting, it has more than served its purpose, especially if it gets off even a single beam.

But the main issue is that your combat units are relatively slow so that you will usually end up catching one enemy unit but never enough of them to outway the points the Woodies score with their shooting.

I have found that relatively easy when using a high lore slann. WBW is very good at closing the distance, and with a few terradons to harass them, as well as a threatening Cold one bus with characters closing in, they'll often scramble around trying to avoid CC, or throw insane amounts of dispel dice against WBW, or save all of them because they think i'll cast it later. It's actually pretty funny.

Also remember that you can heal your basti with high lore, so if it survives, 1 dice a heal on it by the end of the magic phase to give it a fair chance of hitting turn 3.

Regardless of these points though, it remains that dwarves (Which the topic is about) are pretty much superior to elves in all aspects but movement. Your bastiladon have a very good chance of getting cannonballed off the field turn 1, before even getting its turn. Skinks have a very hard time getting through their armour, and saurus' have a very hard time getting into CC - and even when they get there, they have a hard time accomplishing anything. Magic got better with their 8th edition book nerfing their dispel powers, but they are still too good at shutting down your magic phase. It means your shooting is inferior, your close combat is inferior, and your magic will likely not matter much. You are slightly better in terms of movement, but it wont help you.

I have found that Beast supported Saurus (Especially temple guards) along with a Death slann is the way to go. you have to shut down his dispellers with Spirit Leech (which is difficult because of their high Lds..) or go crazy with a Purple sun, and hope it only blows up his army. Caress also works sometimes, because they generally have a pretty low S.

 

[Pepticsalve]

Been very interesting reading these comments... Definitely some tactics to think about when facing either army - I feel that you guys have at least given me some options to consider next time I go up against this sort of army...... This is why I love Warhammer - you have to really think about the different armies and tactics you will come up against. So much more satisfying!

 

[Pinktaco]

Pinktaco, what you need to remember is target saturation.

50 trueflight arrows means 5 blocks of archers. For that amount of points, you can field 15 skink cohort blocks. As we established, they'll take out about 4 skinks per unit per turn. So 3 of those 5 blocks is dedicated to killing 1 of our 15 blocks. Even if it takes 4 turns to get close, which is unlikely, you have lost 6-7 blocks of skinks, and still have 8-9 blocks left. So about 6 or 7 skink cohort units should actually be enough. That also saves you a hell of a lot points, and lets your heavier troops move in.

And this should obviously just be the screen. Now you charge your actual combat block into them, and finish off the archer blocks.

If they can redirect you all over the board, you are using your own redirecters wrong, especially considering how few redirecters the list you made has, compared to the usual skink cloud.

Dwarves are a problem because getting close is a problem, and doing something when you finally get there, is ALSO a problem. WE is easy as all hell to deal with as soon as you hit CC. If they were as bad as you claim, armies like VC would be chanceless against them, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Probably comes down to personal opinion, but I like the WE as an enemy, for the same reason my Dark Eldar army likes Tau in 40k. It's tough as hell to get into CC, but when you do, I always brighten up and enjoy myself. It's the exact same with Lizardmen against Wood Elves. Against dwarves, it feels like I'm playing against a Tau army that suddenly morphs into terminators when I hit CC. The best way of dealing with them is lore of metal, or Purple Sun, a spell that can VERY easily eat your own army if you aren't careful.

Maybe it's just me if they're so easy to deal with.

In an environment where you don't know who you'll be facing you'll be making an all-comers list.

You can bring 900pts of skinks if that's what you want. You can also bring 9 units of skirmishers at roughly 625pts, thing is though that unless you fill up the entire area around the slann you'll be struggling to reach all 90 skinks with your Ld Bubble.

Obviously though if you want to tailor the list you can bring down any lists, but honestly I've never seen anyone bring 15 units of skink cohorts. But maybe I should try it.

50 trueflights will do 18 wounds and make two skink units flee without chance of returning (less than 25% models left = snake eyes).
20 hagbane scouts at close range (15") will do 6,45 wounds.
Now maybe I'm wrong here, but waywactchers can have the multiple shot. At close range they'll do 11 wounds first round.
Should a unit of skinks get close to the Hail of Doom Arrows guy he'll remove an entire unit with that.
A couple of shots from the sniping waystalker and a shot from the glade captain will probanly add e few more dead skinks.

Obviously this is if everything goes according to the WE player. Fact is though that there's a likely chance he'll get first turn. He can remove over 1/3 of massed skink skirmishers before they even move. Luckily a shadow lvl 4 mage won't really hurt skinks so magic isn't the biggest deal here. Magic becomes a big deal if they can hinder our movement of our block(s) - At this point I'd assume the only block there is is a TG blocks house the frog.
-D3 toughness is rough, but should with waywatchers losing a single pip of toughness is basically instant doom to scar vets unless you're lucky. No hyperbole.

Then there's curse of anrahir from the sisters. So you basically have 2 movement spells to watch out for.

I think the worst thing here is that all of this likely happens before we move. It's obviously a bit of a gamble from the WE players side, but that's how it is.

Now obviously we have several counters to this and a list from me would probably include:

9 units of skink skirmishers.
1-2 units of terradons. Rocks are nasty against T3 and no saves.
Maybe 10 cameleons. Depending on what I feel like and amount of terradons.
2 salamanders with snacks.
a block of 30 templeguards.
1-2 scar vets.
1 priest.
slann with WD - so lots of magic missiles.

Putting scouts within 15" range is a gamble as well and maybe they shouldn't. But I still feel it's an uphill struggle.

They can still take out the immediate threats (out scouts(fliers), focus fire skinks and mostly deal with those before they're within range which leaves at least me with very little. Once 2/3 of the skinks are gone along with cameleons and terradons what's to stop them from avoiding the one block I have and redirect it? One can't redirect if all the redirectors have been shot moving up the board.

Obivously though one can take 15 cohort units (which is btw 900pts including a musician in all of those, a 24-30 model saurus warrrior and templeguard units two units of terradons, a pimped slann and a couple of scar vets and call it a day,

The reason I dislike the Wood Elfs is that if you're up agianst a smart player he WILL avoide you at all cost. He doens't have to take out the 1-2 block(s) you show up with. He'll just take out everything else and leave you not rolling your dice.

Are Dwarfs much better? Perhaps not, but at least you'll be seeing some kind of "fair" close combat.

I also find it troubling that you'll risk a 24 casting value spell to kill off some archers. The best targets would be waywatchers, but even then it's only around 200pts. But fair enough, I'm just not much for blowing holes in my guards.

Just a question though - do you seriously deply with 15 units of 10 skink cohorts? If yes have you thus tailored your list (which is fair enough) or is this your general setup? In which case how does it work out against other armies?
I'm just curious because I haven't seen anyone recommend that many cohort units and all would need musicians (which would also make rallying easier.

**EDIT**

Disregarding the 15 cohort units I'm personally struggling to deploy 9 units of skink skirmishers in a reasonable way.

Here's the issue: They're at Ld5 so they'll have to be within the slann. 2 things with that:

1) they can't all be infront of him and his TG unit or whatever you're using. So some of these will have to stay behind each other. Now include the 1" apart rule and suddeny you have skinks standing quite a bit away from the deployment line (which we would need to be as close to as possible).

Realistically I think one could field the skinks something like:

SSSSS SSSSS SSSSS SSSSS SSSSS

SSSSS SSSSS TGTGT SSSSS SSSSS


2) If we deploy like this the only unit we screen is the TG unit OR we have to the scar vets and salamanders further behind. Both units wants to be up in the face of our opponent as fast as possible

Alternatively one can spread out the skinks some more, but the 12" Ld bubble isn't exactly much ground covered. One can also have the BSB on a scar vet which would definately make him a priority target among the waywatchers, but cover more skinks.

Cohort skinks takes up less space, but there are also quite a lot more of them so I'd wager they're harder to cover. Cohort skinks also cannot march and shoot which IMO is a big penalty.

I think deployment is kinda tricky with a lot of skinks and you'll be restricting yourself regardless of how you do it. One can stay withing the bubble and thus make it easier for the WE player to avoid combat or spread out and make panic a bigger problem.

 

[SilverFaith]

Hey, never said I'd 6 dice a spell against 10 models. I just often see larger blocks.

And the trueflight vs skinks example was just to provide a comparison - You can't compare 5 units of trueflight arrow archers to 5 unit of cohorts, when the archers literally costs 3 times as much.

Generally, I switch out to other types of magic missiles, like fire, or death to deal with their characters, mages especially. light is also a great "gamble", because Shems and banishment are decent spells you can 1 or 2 dice if you want, especially with tetto making it less risky. and if you get the Net, you can often shut down entire blocks from acting.

Lots of movement is bad for the elves, because they do not want you into CC. They have ways of stopping you, obviously, but you also have ways around that.

Elves have arrows, and the hope that when their quivers are empty, you're no longer standing, because if you are, they'll all be dead before they know it.

Dwarves have guns and warmachines, and when those run dry, they gear up with swords and shields, and become an immovable wall of stubborn/high leadership, with some of the best defenses in the game, and quite good WS, often far better than our own. Their CC isn't "fair". They only weakness is movement, and movement doesn't matter when they can just hang back and kill your entire army if you stay away, or become incredibly resilient in CC, while stopping most of your casting attempts, or even removing your spells, so even magic isn't really a factor that has all that much impact on the game.

 

[Pinktaco]

When I said fair I was more referering to how you'll eventually end up in combat with them, regardless of how superior they are. That isn't inheriantly true with WE. They know their own weakness and if you eventually get into combat you won't win much on it.

It's kinda like other players view on us, albeit it can be even worse when facing us (a full LM skink avoidance army wouldn't be fun to deal with either). Imagine once you finally catch a unit of skinks/end up in combat you're fighting to remove a unit worth 70 points.

Obviously you'll be getting twice the amount of points from WEs, but depending on their army composition you'll be hard pressed to actually get something worthwhile.

Anyway lets get back on track:
Yes a fully fledged gunline is a true beast. They'll force us to them, especially LM players. At lot of other armies can at least *try* and take out their warmachines and force out the dwarfs.

Back with the 7th edition Dwarf book I kinda looked at them as the perfect counter to us. Long ranged artillery, very good anti magic, superior melee units. I don't know the exact current pricing on dwarfen models, but WS5 on longbears, hammerers and ironbreakers, S4/T4 as a minimum and 2 S6 attacks on the hammerers makes for a menacing foe.

I think when plaing against dwarfs one have to remember certain aspects of the game use them to our own advantage.
Generally speaking there are two principles I think one have to remember:

1) Try and be as proactive as possible. Force the opponent into being reactive. This is hard with dwarfs though and the best weapon is a well placed boosted comet.

2) The more phases of the game you can "win" at the bigger is your chance to win the game.

A) Movement phase is kinda odd here due to the mostly passive dwarfen army, but there is still an advantage to be taken. While their lords can be ridiculous one have to remember that they're bunkered. We pay for our mobility (COs) while still being able to put out rather ridiculous combat characters. This mean that unless our characters are dead we can use them to boost combat where needed. Dwaren players cannot.
Apply same way of thinking to other units.
With some clever thinking we can win this phase.

B) Dwarfs basically have no magic, unless you count their weak bound spells. We'll be quite superior regardless due to lvl 4 vs 0. Their anti magic have been considerably nerfed so while it's still alright they cannot possibly compete against us.
This is basically an auto-win for us.

C) Shooting is kinda an uphill struggle. We can't possibly compete with a battery of artillery and ranged infantry models. Nope. Dwarfs will easily win this one and it's our job to minimize the damage. Use magic and anti warmachine units to deal with them. This can be hard if they castle up.
This one obviously goes to the dwarfs regardless of how we deal with their warmachines. At the end of the day we can't stop it all and our skinks have a hard time against T4 heavy armoured units.

D) Close Combat. This is yet an uphill struggle. Our units will now be in worse shape than we started and their own will generally speaking be superior, but fret we're not completely without advantages.
2 WS5 S6 attacks are scary, but here's the thing - there won't be many of these guys. Remember that if they spend a lot of points on warmachines they can't also spend a lot of points on infantry models. So the reason this is important is because we will hit first. Templeguards with a front of 6 models and a Slann will be able to safely remove 6 models before they strike. The issue here is that they'll probably swing back with full numbers and do 10 wounds to us, assuming 6 wide.

That's basically the same as hitting a brick of white lions, with one very important difference.
We can much easier get magic through once we hit combat. This is why I appreciate Wandering Deliberation more than High Magic. With WD you have 4 spells to alter that outcome. For instance mystifying miasma and iceshard blizzard will result in 5 wounds taken. That's HALF of what we would've taken, not to mention that there's a decent chance that we'll have a superior WS meaning we'll do 8 wounds. Oh we just won combat here.
Wyssan's Wildform + 5+ regen = 5 wounds taken and 8 wounds done.
Wyssan's + iceshard = 6 taken and 8 done.
Mysifying + regen = assuming we hit on 3+ we'll take 5 and do 8.

See a trend here? We'll just have to do any combination of 2 spells to win against hammerers. Against longbeards we'll win even more due to their 1 attack each. All of the WD spells are easy to cast and the dwarfs have a harder time stopping all of them compared to other armies (unless they heavily invest in anti magic).
The great thing here is that not only have their anti magic been nerfed compared to previous editions, but unlike other armies their only magic are a bunch of ridiculous bound spells we can easily stop. Don't expect them to counter your magic with some of their own.

Losing 5 models combat phase isn't glorious, but it's what we have to deal with here.
Obviously this is assuming they have any hammerers. I just picked their hardest hitting infantry models. If we can get in CC with their WS4 S5, ASL ranged models we'll eat them much easier.

So then comes the other important bit. How do we make out guys survive running up the board?
Magic, target saturation and harassment.
Expect our TG unit to take the most punishment. I always bring 30 because we need some in reserve. Takin 24 in a 2500pts game is IMO more of a defensive bunker, with 30 you can take some beating and still dish out.

This is important to keep in mind because barrels will be turned at the TG unit's direction. So prioritize artillery that'll do the most damage to us:
Organg cannons will on average roll 10 shots, runed up half will hit (long range), 2/3 of that will wound and 5/6 will go through armour resulting in 2,77 wounds a turn, on average. With ironcurse icon it's down to 2,33.

Should a cannon ball hit expect 5/6 chance for it to wound and 5/6 to wound. It'll probably plow through 2-3 models before you see either a 1 or a 6 on the dice.

We'll have to utilize magic again here. Regen will make the organg cannon do 1,8 wounds, with wyssan's that's 1,38 wounds.

So to summarize:
- See if you can't take out a prioritize warmachine out with anti-warmchine units.
- Take an ironcurse icon with the slann.
- Use magic to counter whatever they have. For this you have regen, wyssan's and iceshard blizzard.

If we can bring a scar vet fully up the board (lol) he can safely hammer into a cross-bow unit with GWs. He'll take 6 attacks at best and only have 25% to take a single wound. They'll be steadfast though. We can on average eat 3 of them so consider this as a way to hold up a unit you dont want to suddenly flank your templeguards.

Last note I suppose:

Focus fire on whatver you deem the main threatening unit. For instance, should he have a unit with 24 hammerers cast every damage spell you can on them, have your terradons cast rock on them if possible, flame them with your salamanders, try and get a few poison wounds on them with skinks. It doesn't matter if you only score 3-5 wounds before you them because even that is a lot. They'll always hit last agaisnt us so if we can remove 2 entire ranks before they hit they'll lose combat efficiency after first round of combat.
What out for characters though. Should they have lord in the hammerer unit keep away from it. He'll tear up the slann in no time if properly kitted. If they have a Thane in the unit on the other hand I'd even wager you can be so bold as to challenge him with the slann. A thane only have 3 attacks and probably S6 so you'll be looking at 0,83 wounds a turn. Get off regen once and you're back to full wounds. A thane will do 1,66 wounds against templeguards, but here's another bonus: our slann is useless in combat anyway, the thane isn't. If we can bait a thane the dwarf won't be doing as many wounds against us as he otherwise would (we've effectively removed the thane from combat without sacrificing hitting power in the process, it's a win/win). Even if the thane have hatred he'll still only do 1 wound. <.<

So I think the thing against dwarfs is to be smart and horribly abuse what little advantage we have.

One very very last thing. Don't let them charge you. This is obviouslly a non-issue with hammerers, but a lot of their other models suddenly gain S5/6 due to their new +1S rule. Personally I'd rather deal with a 5+ parry and S5.

 

[SilverFaith]

The concept of challenging with a Slann sounds nice, but you forget that the slann has to make way, thus placing himself in the front. This means you lose a total of 6 attacks, rather than the usual 2 - 4 attacks for the 2 frontrow TGs you displace, and 2 for the second row supporting attacks.

Whether or not it's a good trade, I don't know. But if you have Wyssans and regen up, I would expect a "No", because even 3 attacks from the thane isn't all that intimidating.

I also disagree about the WD slann, because you have ages before hitting CC, giving you plenty of time to switch out for whatever signatures you want, and possibly even get some better ones. This allows you to retain spells like WBW, which is very useful in closing the distance. It makes it more than possible to send your CO bus across the board for a safe turn 2 charge. With a bit of luck, tempest can shut down multiple cannons. Soul quench is also surprisingly effective - 2d6 S4 hits is nothing to sneeze at, and coupled with the basti's solar beam, they'll quickly be facing tons of 2-diced spells that can ruin their day, but which they also can't afford to dispel.

HoG is also good at evening out the playing field, even more-so if you manage to get into a combat against 2 dwarf blocks at once (However you managed to do that, I don't know, but just in case) in terms of WS. The movement is also a really nice thing to get as well. Arcane unforging can also be somewhat effective against some of their lords, mostly because they all seem to have at least a 3+ AS.

Another good thing about High Magic, is that you can afford to lose spells. With WD, your entire plan falls apart if he suddenly makes you forget 2 of your spells. With high lore, you just keep casting, and exchange another spell for whatever signature you wanted. You made me forget Tempest so I can't swap out for Wyssans? that's okay, I'll just cast drain magic instead. Or Apotheosis. Or soul quench. Or walk between worlds.

Most of them are disposeable once you hit CC anyway, but are still invaluable before you hit CC. HoG is amazing because of the low cast value. +10 for a chance of getting +1d3 WS, Movement and Initiative? Yes please. Coupled with Melkoth, you are pretty much certain that you will be better than them.

 

[Pinktaco]

Different opinions, but that's fine. OP wanted to know what he can do and now we've given it to him. I disagree with your notion about HM -> WD, but fair enough. Personally I don't feel like adding an addition layer of randomness in order to have 4 spells, but each to their own.

 

[Pepticsalve]

I'm playing against some dwarves today (same opponent). Only 1k points this time though... Fairly certain he'll have at least 1 unit of quarallers and probably a stone thrower in there... Looking forward to trying some of these tactics in this thread. I'll be taking a level 2 heavens priest to see if I can't wreck his shooting (iceshard, curse of the midnight wind, etc). Might even get lucky and roll a comet :-D

 

[PlasmaDavid]

Played Dwarves today twice. Their organ guns shot down my Saurus blocks like it was the Battle of the Somme. Their quarrellers also did this. Was playing with a skaven team mate, so I only had one wizard with Ice Shard who helped minimally. We got trashed in both games.... Dwarves destroy saurus