Discussion Defectors from the Forces of Destruction

[Scalenex]

We've discussed Lizardmen falling to Chaos and mortals defecting to the Lizardmen. Here's a new one.

So I've been slowly reading my way through Glottkin, and I have noticed that the GW fluff writers are good at coming up with progressively more disturbing mutations.

Most of the mutations are for the mortals that the dark gods favor. I suppose if victory for the Chaos gods seems inevitable, most Norselanders will pragmatically decide they would rather have the dark gods favor than face their wrath. But would all? I mean Empire (and other mortals) fall to the allure of the Chaos fairly often. It strains my suspension of disbelief that it never happens in reverse.

It's all fine and good if most of the men of the north want to plunder and destroy the weakling civilized folk of the Empire and elsewhere, but...think about it. Lets pretend some Marauders are sailing back north with some captives in tow. Long sea voyages are often dull. Let's say one of the Marauders decides to chat up a captive.

Marauder: "So with this thing called 'farming' you can make food come out of the ground? You don't have to bludgeon a chimera to death or eat your treacherous brother?"

Captive: "Yep."

Marauder: "This Sigmar, does he make horns sprout from the eye of his devoted followers?"

Captive: "Nope, no mutations. Usually he doesn't do anything, but some have blessing that protect them or smite their enemies."

Marauder: "Interesting."

Captive: "Your leader just disemboweled that guy who looked at him wrong. How much do you guys get paid to put up with that risk?"

Marauder: "Soldiers get paid?!?"



Compared to the Chaos Wastes and surrounding area, the Empire has.

1) Far fewer mutations
2) Far fewer monsters trying to eat you
3) Far fewer kinslaying
4) Far more abundant food
5) The Empire has the same amount of infighting as the Warriors of Chaos, but they tend to be based on arguing and nobles postering, not auto-genocidal acts of allied armies obliterating each other.

The only thing the Empire doesn't have is a slim chance of earning the favor of the dark gods. Consider an Exalted Champion probably had to kill at least a dozen of his brethren to get the position. A Chaos Lord probably killed several dozen to get where he did. Hundreds of Lords die for every one that becomes a Daemon Prince. Granted humans are gamblers by nature, but some people are likely to look at their odds for advancement and say "Hells no!"

If it's personal glory a Norseman is after, the Empire is STILL better. A mediocre Norseman fighter is well above the level of a state troop. A hypothetical Norse defector could rise quickly in the Empire's army or make a killing as a mercenary.

So there are lots of good reasons for the lower echelons of the Warriors of Chaos to jump ship. Lets look at the others.

Dark Elves: Is hating everyone that enjoyable? What about constant fear of your superiors, inferiors, and peers elimanating you as a threat or for lolz? I can't imagine a whole lot of Dark Elves joining the High Elves (End Times notwithstanding), but some would. The Wood Elves would seem more appealing. They are the best sailors in the world, if a Dark Elf wants to desert, they probably can.

Vampire Counts: They want to rule the world, not see it destroyed. End Times is full of this mottiff (not that it didn't exist before). I can also see a few oddball vampires supporting order for non-megolamaniac reasons, especially Lahmians. It's probably more relaxing to live as an eccentric Empire noble surrounded by wealth in Altdorf and surreptitiously eating people than lording over some pathetic peasants from a crumbling castle in the Nowhere province of Sylvania.

Skaven: Skaven make a culture of selling each other out. Skaven probably sell each other to non-Skaven periodically. While an Empire town is not likely to accept Skaven political refugees, Skaven are survivors. Skaven on the outs could probably desert without defecting pretty easily. For a Skaven out of favor with the ratty bigwigs, eking out a marginal existance in the middle of nowhere probably beats being a pawn in a big Skaven settlement.

Orcs and Goblins: The Gnoblars decided to throw their lot in with the Ogres. Surely they aren't the only subpsecies of Greenskin that has has members that tried this? Defectors and deserters are pretty likely to have the snot beat out of them, but Orcs and Goblins aren't organized enough to have an internal affairs division. Greenskin mercenaries could probably easily find Humans (or other races) pay better than narcissistic Orc Warlords. It wouldn't happen often, but it wouldn't likely be unheard of.

Chaos Dwarfs: They are too isolated and tightly controlled for a dissenter to leave. They are also stubborn. A discontent Chaos Dwarf would probably just go through the motions of being a Chaos Dwarf. Besides, they act like Forces of Order more than Forces of Destruction. They just have a very fascist sense of Order.

Beastmen: They are probably too deeply born in Chaos to have true free will. They certainly wouldn't be joining a Force of Order group, but it's conceivable that a few Beastmen would take the more noble aspects of "beast" and simple become another animal surviving in the wilderness.

Daemons: A Daemon might accidentally help out the Forces of Order by attacking a Daemonic rival (or choosing tactics that are dumb), but they are born of the essence of Chaos and shouldn't be able to willingly side with Order.


Mostly though, Norselanders should be streaming into the civilized world to get away from their gods awful leaders and harsh supernatural environments. They would probably produce more defectors or deserters than the rest of the Forces of Destruction combined.


Or in the minds of GW writers, free will in the WHF only allows mortals to choose badly?

 

[SilverFaith]

Some beastmen are literally just normal humans mutated by something. Not even specifically chaos gods doing it - even warpstone can do that. Sprinkle some warpstone dust in a few wells in a well populated city, and you can easily turn upwards of 100 people into beastmen during a week or so.

"Beastmen" as an army are generally insane and mutated, both physically and mentally, to be beyond help. But a Beastmen warband could feasibly be on the side of Order.

The only problem is that most Forces of Order would immediately kill them on sight. Elves are unlikely to even allow them to open their mouths, wood elves especially, humans have this fascistic "KILL THE MUTANT, HURR DURR" idea going that we known and love(Read: Hate) from the Emperium of Man from 40k, so even if they tried to talk, it would just be met with "DON'T LET THE MUTANT SPEAK ITS LIES!" before they got killed where they stand.

Dwarves aren't the most friendly of blokes, so they likely wouldn't listen to them anyway - and if they did, they would likely kill them anyway, just for the heck of it, or because of some grudge they have.

Lizardmen are known to kill high elves for no other reason than "You set foot in our jungle, too bad", so chances of them being accepted = 0.

Bretonians are... I don't know, honestly. Not well enough versed in their lore to know.

Beastmens likely have the best odds with Ogres or Tomb Kings, being neutral armies.

Though on the note of Gnoblars, they aren't really that well off, and I have a feeling it's more of a "forced labour" role they are in, rather than actually being there because it is better than being with Orcs or Goblins. For reference, they have a special rule called "Below contempt", that means Ogres (or even other gnoblars) don't take panic tests because of Gnoblars, but instead they LAUGH.

 

[Scalenex]

The idea of unwillingly mutated Beastmen trying to resist their Chaotic nature is intriguing.

I agree with you that most defectors that avoid being killed by their own kind would probably be killed by the Forces of Order, but that's just how the WHF works. Defectors from the Forces of Order moving to Destruction rarely fare well either. Most would-be Necromancers get killed by their first attempt to raise something or get killed by a vampire they tried to cozy up with. The Chaos cults in the Empire have a high attrition rate.

 

[spawning of Bob]

Future Spawning of Bob stories demand Norscan sailors who are true neutrals (violent, greedy, untrustworthy, but neutral)

Religiously, they pay lip service to Chaos, but they follow Manann - God of the Seas and Stormfels - God of Storms and Sharks; patron of pirates and wreckers. They may be one and the same, reflecting the mood of the sea changeing from one moment to the next.

I consider Manann and Ulrik (among others including the Sky) to be old gods, predating the coming of Chaos, possibly mankind itself, maybe even the Old Ones. Among sophisticated new Norscans, the neutrals would be seen as superstitious and backwards:

"you make offerings to the sea? What does he give in return. Not glory or "blessings".
"He gives fish!"
"And tomorrow he sinks your boat"
"If I give offerings, he might not."
"Isn't that an untestable proposition?"
"aren't you meant to be an unthinking pawn of the blood god?"
"oops, sorry. Here, have an axe to the head. Khorne Rulz!"

Of course the actual sea worshipers who may get either life or death from the sea appreciate the majesty of enormous, but indifferent power. Fickle Chaos gods are more like children. Appease them today with the correct observances, ignore them tomorrow. The Sea will endure unchanged as it always has. And heck if I'm on a tiny boat in a storm, it won't be Khorne I'll be praying to for mercy.

Anyhow, my view makes SOME Norscans more "human" and pragmatic because their culture is linked with the sea -they have a common understanding with all sailing races. Other Chaos tribes such as the Kurgans would be much deeper in the thrall of Chaos with perhaps a few small pockets of old shamanistic religions.

Individuals could also walk away from Chaos. They wouldn't last long at home though...

So for WoC - from significant individuals up to smallish clan groups could be more closely aligned to armies of niceness, but I can't see a region or large community walking away without getting a big "kick me" sign pinned on its back. With a large axe.


Skaven would happily double deal with anyone. I consider them neutral in the greater Chaos vs Order war anyway. The difficulty is making an initial approach without humans screaming and jumping onto chairs.
The following three scenarios are more likely:
Skaven group stronger than human group - bon appetit
Skaven group weaker than human group - remain in the shadows
Skaven group equal to human group - sneakily weaken human group (possibly in a "cooperative" way) followed by bon appetit

Which is just as they treat each other. So it's fair.


O+G are similarly neutral. Good allies if you can point them in the right direction. Not as good if they see you holding the strings. I would employ them as a big green speed bump.


Daemons are likely to have some complicated politics of their own. They may trade their might here on earth for advantage beyond (or disadvantage for their eternal rivals) Just expect them to melt away or eat you at an inopportune moment.

Of course if you BIND a major Daemon in some plausible way you have a potent weapon which of course will be scheming to turn the tables and bind your soul eternally.


Beastmen have a domestic animal complex. The urge to raze and burn "civilised" things like farms and tilled land is deep seated and may predate chaos as well. The Ruinous powers contributed focus, making them much more of a threat.

Individual leaders would be wholly given over to their patron god. The herd behind are followers who happen to get the chance to act out their bestial urges.

Can someone else lead the herd in a different direction through illusion or strength of arm? Maybe, but the herd is still the herd. They would not suddenly become suitable inhabitants for a petting zoo.

More recent changelings are interesting, although I suspect that the bestial nature is what defines a ravening "beast" more than its physical form. Why do some become beasts, some rats and some chaos spawn? Morality tales would indicate that that is what was inside all along. We should have pig-men as well.

Beast buddies? Point and shoot. Expect collateral damage.


Vampires and such. Idiots. If they fufil Nagash's desire for an orderly and unchanging world of dead the next drink will be a long time coming.

These guys have the longevity to be patient and work in the shadows but seem to suffer from vanity about their own significance.

Speech to minions: "I shall take what is mine by right of... well, I am pretty cool. Get it? Cool... You guys are a bunch of stiffs. Get it? Stiffs!" *

They will always fail because the gods have got it in for them. So many unlikely defeats snatched from the jaws of victory because of a miracle. It's enough to make one take up religion.

That said, they are self important enough to listen to a proposal before impaling the envoy. Possibly the most reliable of the subgroup of races who consider you food.

Necromancers and minor death cultists may seek to be your allies, and they would be good ones. Weak enough to not openly betray you (unless they were part of a Vampire's bigger game), weak enough to benefit from your patronage. Having complementary strengths to fill that zombie shaped hole in every well considered army. Just check your pulse regularly to see who is still in charge.


Out of dwarfs, WE, HE and DE, the only ones who really care who you are are the ones who would torture you for sport. The dwarfs might aid you to fulfill an oath, the WE and HE for pragmatic reasons but they don't LIKE you, or even respect you for that matter.

I would place DE as being more casually cruel (But Chaos dwarfs really DO hate everyone). You are nothing to even the lowest DE. WHy not kill you for fun, or place bets on how long it takes you to drown. No moral issue here, and heck killing is FUN when you are this good at it.

As you go up the hierarchy the politics of power, position and revenge and the demands of the gods start to be bigger motivators. You are dealing guys with great power and NO discernible conscience.

You might go onto their side but they will never be on your side. They are not your buddies.


And the worst of the lot, Lizardmen. If one appears on your doorstep wanting to be your friend, you are probably a pawn in a game that has run for millennia with no end in sight.

If you cross some unspecified territorial / etiquette line he will cut your throat. He will feel no remorse nor inflated self importance. He will at most feel the warmth of satisfaction that the Great Plan is one neck closer to fulfillment.

And that is a friendly one. That is not to say he doesn't understand the value of loyalty /trust / alliance / mutual interest, it is just that these are tools, not values.

Good luck trying to debate world view with him. He might feel sorry for your waywardness, and nothing will make him doubt that he has a purpose. He might be a tiny cog in the machine of history but that is enough motivation for him.

Strangely, the same carries for Bob et al. On the little stuff they argue because they have personalities and preferences, but on the big decisions they do what they perceive to be right at all times. It looks like lunacy from outside, and indeed to each other, but they have faith that they do it all for some greater purpose.

I don't think a warm blood could defect and "join" the lizardmen. He would always be an outsider even if he adopted all aspects of LM culture. Which is not to say that he couldn't live harmoniously alongside. Right up until he crosses one of those unspecified lines. One neck closer, feel the warmth.




* I'm dying out here!**








** Get it?

 

[Scalenex]

Beastmen have a domestic animal complex. The urge to raze and burn "civilised" things like farms and tilled land is deep seated and may predate chaos as well. The Ruinous powers contributed focus, making them much more of a threat.

Individual leaders would be wholly given over to their patron god. The herd behind are followers who happen to get the chance to act out their bestial urges.

Can someone else lead the herd in a different direction through illusion or strength of arm? Maybe, but the herd is still the herd. They would not suddenly become suitable inhabitants for a petting zoo.

More recent changelings are interesting, although I suspect that the bestial nature is what defines a ravening "beast" more than its physical form. Why do some become beasts, some rats and some chaos spawn? Morality tales would indicate that that is what was inside all along. We should have pig-men as well.

Do the Beastmen have changeilngs? "Changelings" are children (or rarely adults) that are switched with a lookalike. In real Earth mythology changelings usually refer to faeries stealing babies and swapping in their own children but other supernatural creatures do it to. Also real life children switched at birth are sometimes called changelings.

If Beastmen do baby swaps that would be interesting. I wouldn't credit them with being that subtle. It would raise some disturbing but interesting story conventions if some/most/all Beastmen children are born human looking and develop their bestial features as they mature. Also, nature versus nurture themes can come up if normal human babies raised by Beastmen grow up to be normal (or almost normal) Beastmen and visa versa.

 

[Kcibrihp-Esurc]

Bretonians are... I don't know, honestly. Not well enough versed in their lore to know..

Brettonnians would run them over with the Tanks that they glamour to look like Horses