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8th Ed. Disheartening discovery

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chefsdad

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I might be a little slow off the mark here, but I've been re-reading some rules and, as far as I can see...



A Slann in temple guard can be challenged.


Without champions (which might well be killed off in the first round), the Slann will likely need to refuse, losing the leadership and BSB if he's holding it.


This saddens me greatly :(
 
chefsdad said:
I might be a little slow off the mark here, but I've been re-reading some rules and, as far as I can see...



A Slann in temple guard can be challenged.


Without champions (which might well be killed off in the first round), the Slann will likely need to refuse, losing the leadership and BSB if he's holding it.


This saddens me greatly :(
Click to expand...

Actually it isn't the end of the world, esp if you have taken to giving your TG standard bearer the banner of discipline. The unit will retain its stubborn because the Slann is still part of the unit, and I thought everyone was aware by now that you should never give the battle standard to a Slann in 8th edition, losing your toad because your unit ran away (however unlikely that is to happen) is an unacceptable risk. I don't usually use a BSB in games of less than 2500, but when I do it is always on a scar vet.
 
Considered it, but my vets are all cowboys, and relatively expendable. Hero points are hotly contested, and you want to keep your Slann alive anyway, so seems like the best option. Used it all through the last book with no problems (though didn't use temple guard).

The answer is simple - don't get your Slann in combat with a character you can't handle. Champions are generally not too scary with the Slann's stats. Or just win combat ;)

Just made me a bit sad is all...
 
well....F.

Never read it like that.
 
Yeah, I read and re-read trying to find something I missed, but no. Ah well. I'll just have to play better ;)
 
ssshh stay quiet guys and delete this thread, most people never even think they can challenge the slann :) has saved my ass plenty of times :)
 
I played a Brett player on a regular basis who would take an extra killy (heroic killing blow) knight that forced the acceptance of the challenge. He would charge my TG unit. Challenge the champion, kill it, challenge any hero, kill it, then challenge the Slann. He would usually kill it as well.
 
But instead we have a rule that allows us to swap spells between two Slanns. It is not only useless but also poorly written. Don't you love the new book? :D
 
... I WONDER IF kROAK CAN SWAP HIS SPELL....

Ehh probaly not. :shifty:
 
There is an argument that the Slann cannot come to the front rank and, thus, cannot take a challenge but that argument is thin given that the BRB (on page 102) allows for a character to accept a challenge and fight it as though off to the side and in BTB with the opposing model in the challenge if it is impossible for the models in the challenge to come into BTB contact. The character moved to the back rank or that is designated as having rejected the challenge cannot confer its leadership to other models while it has rejected a challenge. Thus, for now and until the issue is clarified, assume that the Slann can accept a challenge and can be nerfed wrt to lending its leadership to the unit or army if no model in the unit accepts the challenge per the BRB and loses the ability to give the unit re-rolls of LD tests if it is the BSB per the latest FAQ (to p. 107 of the BRB, see below). Ironically, any banner on the Slann still works and applies to the unit.

FAQ 1.8 Page 107 – The Battle Standard Bearer.
Add “If a Battle Standard Bearer is in a unit that Refuses a
Challenge and is subsequently moved to the rear of its unit, it
loses the Hold Your Ground rule until the end of the turn.
Note, however, that if the Battle Standard Bearer has a magic
standard its effects continue to apply as normal (it cannot be
‘switched on or off’)”.

Note that a decent TG unit should generally be able to hold up against a Brettoniam unit, except when charged. or when the Brett unit is a "deathstar" set up with a lord and paladin and grail knights. or questing knights The killing blow only works for the lance on the charge, so the second round of combat is usually a good time to take the challenge or take the challenge with a champ round one and then accept wth Slann round two and thereafter if you think you can survive. (A lord hits 2/3's but wounds Slann 50% and then 50% ward save, so the Slann can often take 4 attacks from the Lord at S4 and the one attack from the horse and average only 0.78 unsaved wounds per ropund, making it a safer strategy for up to two rounds pretty easily, or more if you can recover lost wounds). The key is to use skink cohort or skirmisher units to force either failed charges and to be unable to charge the TG or charge the skinks and overrun into mthe TG. Bretts, other than questing knights, are very weak (S3 and S4) when they are not charging unless they are a character that chooses a magic sword from the BRB or their army book that boosts S. Most of the Brett magic weapons are lances or first round of combat weapons (except Sword of Lady's Champ if Grail Knight, which are rarely taken; Birth-Sword; or Sword of Heroes which is situational and only works against T5 or greater models).

The TG unit remains stubborn if it declines the challenge and LD 8 without Banner of Disciple (89% pass rate) and LD 9 with banner of discipline (95% pass rate). That is pretty good with cold blooded LD. If you can survive the initial charge or battle, then a saurus unit or Krox unit in the flank will ultimately kill any expensive deathstar Brett lance unit.
 
I agree with olderplayer - The Slann can't move to the front rank
He always passes Look out Sir. So I'm sure that if a TG can take a cannon ball to the face for the Slann, then surely all the TG infront could stop the challenger attacking the Slann

I allowed this, and my Slann has died quite a few times :( . My Empire player really doesn't like like my Slann so he tries to challenge it when he can, which is why I brought a veteran or Oldblood - and it also stopped the mess with the rules - until he read the Guardians rules and agreed he can't move to the front rank unless the unit is small enough
 
JuQ said:
But instead we have a rule that allows us to swap spells between two Slanns. It is not only useless but also poorly written. Don't you love the new book? :D
Click to expand...

But it's cool! And it's called "Telepathic Confabulation"...what's not to love? :D

olderplayer said:
Ironically, any banner on the Slann still works and applies to the unit.

FAQ 1.8 Page 107 – The Battle Standard Bearer.
Add “If a Battle Standard Bearer is in a unit that Refuses a
Challenge and is subsequently moved to the rear of its unit, it
loses the Hold Your Ground rule until the end of the turn.
Note, however, that if the Battle Standard Bearer has a magic
standard its effects continue to apply as normal (it cannot be
‘switched on or off’)”.

Note that a decent TG unit should generally be able to hold up against a Brettoniam unit, except when charged. or when the Brett unit is a "deathstar" set up with a lord and paladin and grail knights. or questing knights The killing blow only works for the lance on the charge, so the second round of combat is usually a good time to take the challenge or take the challenge with a champ round one and then accept wth Slann round two and thereafter if you think you can survive. (A lord hits 2/3's but wounds Slann 50% and then 50% ward save, so the Slann can often take 4 attacks from the Lord at S4 and the one attack from the horse and average only 0.78 unsaved wounds per ropund, making it a safer strategy for up to two rounds pretty easily, or more if you can recover lost wounds). The key is to use skink cohort or skirmisher units to force either failed charges and to be unable to charge the TG or charge the skinks and overrun into mthe TG. Bretts, other than questing knights, are very weak (S3 and S4) when they are not charging unless they are a character that chooses a magic sword from the BRB or their army book that boosts S. Most of the Brett magic weapons are lances or first round of combat weapons (except Sword of Lady's Champ if Grail Knight, which are rarely taken; Birth-Sword; or Sword of Heroes which is situational and only works against T5 or greater models).

The TG unit remains stubborn if it declines the challenge and LD 8 without Banner of Disciple (89% pass rate) and LD 9 with banner of discipline (95% pass rate). That is pretty good with cold blooded LD. If you can survive the initial charge or battle, then a saurus unit or Krox unit in the flank will ultimately kill any expensive deathstar Brett lance unit.
Click to expand...

Gleaming pennant on the Slann? (And pray you don't fail your first break test ;))
 
The Slaan doesn't need to move to the front rank to be challenged, BRB Page 102 under "Fighting a Challenge" mentions moving the two models into base contact but if for whatever reason this is not possible, to just assume the models are in base contact and continue with the challenge as normal. Unfortunately there is no 'mess' with the rules in this instance.
 
After quite a few games, I've come to the conclusion you need:
1) Leave the Slaan at home.
or
2) Take lore of shadow, or take high magic and cycle some spells to shadow. This allows the slaan to use the shadow attribute to swap out of the temple guard.

With the new book, they slaan can be stuck with a challenge. With the new book, the slaan can also leave temple guard units.
 
Lizardmatt said:
After quite a few games, I've come to the conclusion you need:
1) Leave the Slaan at home.
or
2) Take lore of shadow, or take high magic and cycle some spells to shadow. This allows the slaan to use the shadow attribute to swap out of the temple guard.

With the new book, they slaan can be stuck with a challenge. With the new book, the slaan can also leave temple guard units.
Click to expand...

3) Wandering deliberations to the rescue again :)
 
Lizardmatt said:
After quite a few games, I've come to the conclusion you need:
1) Leave the Slaan at home.
Click to expand...

Everyday I'm liking more this option

Lizardmatt said:
or
2) Take lore of shadow, or take high magic and cycle some spells to shadow. This allows the slaan to use the shadow attribute to swap out of the temple guard.

With the new book, they slaan can be stuck with a challenge. With the new book, the slaan can also leave temple guard units.
Click to expand...

Why shadow?
 
DivineVisitor is correct. My earlier post was misunderstood. The army book merely says that the Slann joining the unit goes to the second rank and can stay there; it is not clear that the Slann cannot go to the first rank (army book in fact says that if the unit is depleeted eventually the Slann does go to the front rank). and, the BRB on page 102 specifcially allows for issuing and accepting challenges where the models in the challenge cannot physically come inot base contact.

I think that the Slann in TG unit is so iconic and powerful that it may be better to accept the risk and also anticipate the challenge the Slann issue buy using an oldblood or scar vet and champion to mitigate the issue. Lvl 4, 5 wounds with T4, and 4+ ward save in the base stats makes the Slann worth playing.; then add the auto stubborn crown and ability to hide in the second rank of the TG unit values. A lot of the discipline options are really very points efficient as well. The worst that happens is the unit loses the BSB re-roll and general LD bubble if the Slann is made the BSB and general. Std of discipline and gleaming pendant are obvious possible solutions in the TG unit after the champ dies. A cheap BSB (skink chief in a skirmish unit with a skink priest behind the TG as an option both to control PF pursuit and diversify risk might be an interesting solution and allow for a cheaper Slann, less risk of an autoloss if the Slann dies.

I still like the idea of changing it up and running two skink priests as an alternative.
 
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