7th Ed. First Battles under my belt, but some questions arose.

[skinker]

Played 1500 points against the high elves last night and massacred them on both occasions. I'm talking every unit dead on his side and maybe 200-300 points gone on mine. At any rate, some questions arose during the battle.

#1) Does the stegadon have 360 line of sight since its a single model? Can it charge something that is behind it, for example?

#2) 3 questions with skirmishers here a) Can my units see through them and then charge through them?
b) Can they see through each other and shoot in 2 ranks? c) Can a skirmishing unit (for example a salamander) that is parked behind them shoot his breath weapon over them?

#3) If Teradons land in the woods, do they get unobstructed vision for purposes of charging the next turn? For example, do we interpret it as they fly above the woods and can see all around?

#4) Along the same lines: a) Can Teradons see over other units to get the charge off? b) Does the jaguar charm allow my hero to see over other units to get the charge off since he is making a flight move?

That's it for now. Thanks for your help and patience!

 

[n810]

#1 it used to in 6th edition... It doesn't anymore, it just sees the front 90%

#2 no, no and no but shirmishers of the same unit don't get in each outhers way when shooting

#3 good question... the rules are not entirely clear on this one,
but it does say that terradons treat woods as open terrain..?

#4 Not sure about that one either, you might want to check out the flying rules in the main rule book

 

[Stegadeth]

Played 1500 points against the high elves last night and massacred them on both occasions. I'm talking every unit dead on his side and maybe 200-300 points gone on mine. At any rate, some questions arose during the battle.

#1) Does the stegadon have 360 line of sight since its a single model? Can it charge something that is behind it, for example?

No. Page 59, BRB

#2) 3 questions with skirmishers here a) Can my units see through them and then charge through them?
b) Can they see through each other and shoot in 2 ranks? c) Can a skirmishing unit (for example a salamander) that is parked behind them shoot his breath weapon over them?

a) No. If they screen your opponent, they screen you as well unless you are a large target seeing over them.
b) Yes, skirmishers do not block line of sight of other members of their unit. Page 67, BRB
c) No, see b). That being the case the Salamander shouldn't be able to see the target. It is screened by the skirmishers. If it cannot see it, it cannot shoot at it.

#3) If Terradons land in the woods, do they get unobstructed vision for purposes of charging the next turn? For example, do we interpret it as they fly above the woods and can see all around?

Terradons treat woods as open terrain for movement (not line of sight). Page 52 Lizardmen Army Book
A flyer must be able to see its intended target when charges are declared (before it moves out of the woods) Page 68, BRB

Re-read how flying models are considered to move. They both start and end their moves on the ground. If something is in front of them blocking their vision, they cannot declare that charge. They cannot see the unit until after the declare charges portion of the movement phase is over if they have to get into the air to see it.

#4) Along the same lines: a) Can Terradons see over other units to get the charge off? b) Does the jaguar charm allow my hero to see over other units to get the charge off since he is making a flight move?

a) See above. If you cannot see it or are screened you cannot declare a charge against it.
b) Same as above.

That's it for now. Thanks for your help and patience!

No problem!

 

[skinker]

Thanks for the quick and patient response. The only contention I would make is with regards to the salamander. Since he is not shooting AT a unit but rather shooting flames in a specific direction... wouldn't this be ok? He doesn't roll to hit, he just breathes fire out and hopes to hit something...

 

[Stegadeth]

Thanks for the quick and patient response. The only contention I would make is with regards to the salamander. Since he is not shooting AT a unit but rather shooting flames in a specific direction... wouldn't this be ok? He doesn't roll to hit, he just breathes fire out and hopes to hit something...

Page 56, Lizardmen Army Book, "The target must be in line of sight to shoot at it."

 

[skinker]

Guess it can't be any clearer. One last quesiton... It says they can move and fire. Can they also march and fire? I know most units can't march and shoot but is this different in any way?

 

[speedygeko]

no they cant march and fire, the only thing you can do if you march is cast spells

 

[Stegadeth]

Not true, speedy one.

Page 15, BRB: A unit that has marched in the movement phase cannot shoot missile weapons during the shooting phase.

This is still a good question, however! After all, is the Salamander's Spout Flames attack considered a missile weapon? It sounds like a breath weapon, doesn't it? The fluff on the Salamander page even says it "spits" the attack.

Breath Weapons, Page 98, BRB, specifically says that a breath weapon can be used after a march movement! All good, right?

Wrong!

The Salamanders Spout Flames attack is not classed as a breath weapon. I hate that. If you look at the Lizardmen Army Book Faq, Page 2, this specific question is answered.
"Q. Can Salamanders make a march move and then shoot? In other words, do they have a breath weapon?
A. No - the attack isn't described as a breath weapon attack."

Yeah, I guess when you spit you aren't necessarily breathing? I assume they figure Salamanders marching and shooting would somehow be imbalanced for their point cost or something.

 

[Bibamus]

one more thing regarding the salamander, you may not shoot its template weapon if there is a chance for the template hit hit friendly units as far as i know, so even if you would see through skink (you don't) you couldn't fire.
also, in 6th edition kroxigors could charge through skiks, not anymore

 

[skinker]

Not true, speedy one.

Page 15, BRB: A unit that has marched in the movement phase cannot shoot missile weapons during the shooting phase.

This is still a good question, however! After all, is the Salamander's Spout Flames attack considered a missile weapon? It sounds like a breath weapon, doesn't it? The fluff on the Salamander page even says it "spits" the attack.

Breath Weapons, Page 98, BRB, specifically says that a breath weapon can be used after a march movement! All good, right?

Wrong!

The Salamanders Spout Flames attack is not classed as a breath weapon. I hate that. If you look at the Lizardmen Army Book Faq, Page 2, this specific question is answered.
"Q. Can Salamanders make a march move and then shoot? In other words, do they have a breath weapon?
A. No - the attack isn't described as a breath weapon attack."

Yeah, I guess when you spit you aren't necessarily breathing? I assume they figure Salamanders marching and shooting would somehow be imbalanced for their point cost or something.

I think this is a gray area since rules say you can't march and shoot a missile weapon (which this is not). Also, why does it specifically say in the barbed razordon description that they can't march and shoot... if that was the case with their salamander brothers wouldn't they also mention it?

 

[Stegadeth]

one more thing regarding the salamander, you may not shoot its template weapon if there is a chance for the template hit hit friendly units as far as i know

Actually, since it has artillery dice (up to ten inch) added range that would prevent it from firing at a lot of stuff on the board. I think what you mean to say here is that it cannot target a unit engaged with one of your units in close combat, which is a standard shooting rule.

The fun thing about the Salamander rules is that you can overshoot into a unit engaged in close combat!

Let's make an example:


EEEEECC
EEEEECC
EEEEECC
EEEEECC
EEEEECC

XXXXX
XXXXX


----SS
----SS
----ss
----ss
E is enemy unit engaged with your Cold One Cavalry marked CC.
X is the enemy unit in front of SS which is your Salamander followed by his skink handlers, s.

Now the Salamander targets X. The Salamander, by virtue of being screened, cannot even see unit E. Salamander makes his Spout Flames attack and rolls an 8 on the artillery die. This means the template misses unit X completely but smacks right into unit E, and possibly even into your own Cold One Cav, CC!

This is just a neat trick to shoot at units already engaged in Close Combat. If you angle it correctly, your own troops are not in danger however you are not prevented from using Spout Flames if there is a chance you will hit your own unit because you can hit your own unit. It is likely because screening means you cannot see what's behind you, so they allow it.

 

[Stegadeth]

I think this is a gray area since rules say you can't march and shoot a missile weapon (which this is not). Also, why does it specifically say in the barbed razordon description that they can't march and shoot... if that was the case with their salamander brothers wouldn't they also mention it?

I get where you are coming from, but the FAQ leaves no doubt or wiggle room.

Q. Can Salamanders make a march move and then shoot? In other words, do they have a breath weapon?"
A. No - the attack isn't described as a breath weapon.

It's as plain as day. Can they march and shoot? And the answer is clearly no.

If you need a link to the FAQ, here you go.

 

[skinker]

Thanks, I didn't realize that FAQ was an official warhammer answer. This makes me sad.

Stega, I appreciate your wisdom with regards to the lizardmen. When you get a chance, please check out my team army list in the list forum and let me know what your thoughts are. I trust your expertise!

 

[Bibamus]

i dont know, don't have the army book handy right now but check the template weapons, i remember a section that mentioned you can not shot a template weapon if it could potentially hit your own models,regarding flame templates at least.
thats the rule i've been following and i had no problem firing the salamander as i don't want to fry my own troops either. also targeting a unit hoping it will overshoot in CC is kinda cheating, i advise against it

 

[Stegadeth]

Don't be absurd. It's not cheating at all. You're following the rules, ergo you are not cheating. You are targeting a unit that you are completely allowed to, and have every right to target. Usually you are happy to hit anything. If it overshoots, it overshoots and you have no control over that. In fact, the Salamander entry specifically mentions overshooting. There is no rule about potentially hitting your own models. Just like a Stone Thrower can make an errant shot and potentially hit, well, nearly any unit on the board. A rule such as this would severely hamper the usefulness of the Salamander.

 

[Caneghem]

"i dont know, don't have the army book handy right now but check the template weapons, i remember a section that mentioned you can not shot a template weapon if it could potentially hit your own models,regarding flame templates at least."

You are probably thinking of breath weapons. Salamanders aren't using a breath weapon, but a template with a random range. Now with a breath weapon it makes sense to forbid putting the template down where it will hit your own troops, since it is not random at all, you just lay the template down. But for Salamanders as for stone throwers, you can target a valid enemy near a friendly unit if you are willing to take that risk.

As for overshooting being illegal, that's more for cannons and things with a guess range. Intentionally overshooting with a salamander can only be done in the movement phase. Something like moving the Salamander within 1 inch (closer than optimal) of the legal target in the hopes the template will wind up far on the other side hitting another enemy unit in close combat is a workaround of the intended rules, but isn't illegal.

 

[JohnMavrick]

It's also worth mentioning that under stone throwers you can legally target units which you can not specifically see, so long as you see an enemy unit in the direct line of sight. This is the only weapon that your allowed to target models your not normally allowed to shoot at. Since Salamanders are not stone throwers (Rock lobbers, grudge throwers etc) you can not target enemy units blocked from sight.

And in reference to our gaming group's findings. When performing a monuver or tactic which isn't specifically listed as against the rules (and therefor not cheating) but still seems off you'll get a block of cheese thrown in your face!

 

[Bibamus]

uhm no, the stone thower has to see its target, BRB p. 92 under firing a stone thrower