8th Ed. Games Workshop increased prices again?

[Lingbei]

Just compare there prices to companies like Mantic. I looked on there site, 100 'clan warrior' Dwarfs for £50. At GW it is £20 for 16 therefore for the same price you would get 40 models and there both the same size, don't understand how GW can justify it.

 

[Sammy the Squib]

Just compare their prices to companies like Mantic. I looked on their site, 100 'clan warrior' Dwarfs for £50. At GW it is £20 for 16 therefore for the same price you would get 40 models and they're both the same size, don't understand how GW can justify it.

fixd

 

[Lingbei]

Thanks for that, I'm not the best with languages unless it's coding lol

 

[strewart]

Thanks Strewart for your information. Though I agree on most of it, I dont' see how comparing prices of different industries (in your example - games/electronics - though I do agree on their stagnant pricing throughout the years) has any direct or indirect relationship to the IP. Other than a representation of a % difference, it has no bearing on the GW buisness model (more on that later). IMO, it's like comparing apples to oranges with the only common factor is they are both edible and fruit.
And yes, inflation, gas and oil, rent etc. all goes up each year and usually a small % by themselves. But when an industry is hit by several small % raw material and commodity increases the outcome is a much larger % increase which usually a portion of that is refected in the final price (not value). Inflation, historically, has an average increase of 11% every 10 years (based on my ecomics professor). Add to that the gas price gouging we've had here in the States (not sure of other countries so cannot address that), it's a ridiculous rollercoaster that affects everything here. And lately it's been an a weekly basis.
So, how much does GW truly need to increase their prices by? That depends on their business model. Yes, it's fair to compare their business model with other like-hobbies. And as consumers we always compare the final price or even the % increase of the price. Businesses can look at the final prices and compare that to their competitions, but their raw materials is where they look to see if they can get a better deal. If they can't, then they look at other ways to cut costs. Usually the last thing business *want* to do is to increase the cost of their product because they know that they could/will potentially lose their customer base. So, that comes down to their business model after all the other avenues have been looked at. And, IMO, GW's business model doesn't look to be in good shape.
So, yes. IMO, their % price increases on GW's models are really high. Do I like it. Heck no. From GW's standpoint, perhaps they "had" to. But like I mentioned. No business wants to increase their product's prices for fear of losing customer base... well... unless that company is run by greedy Dark Elves.

Thanks for the information on inflation, I didn't know a value for it and was just going off of what logic I could find. So if inflation is 11% every 10 years, going back to the regiment boxes that cost $34.95 here in 2000.... They should now be at about $39 maximum. I would be happy with a price like that actually. In reality, they are $55 now for the few that are left, for the most part they are $45-$48 for 10, so you need $90 to get the same amount of models you could for $34.95 10-11 years ago.

I actually think it is fair to compare to other industries. Especially when a common defence of GW is 'of course they need to increase prices, everything goes up!' It is a weak and flawed defence which I wanted to address in detail. Additionally, GW direct competitors are ones like Mantic, PP, AoW, Spartan Games etc. that provide other models usually much cheaper. However, indirectly, I am adding up the cost of an army, and thinking 'wow, look how many games/consoles/alcohol/anything I could get for that cost!'. Additionally, I am comparing the value over time for different industries to get an idea of how the overall economy is going. Essentially, as I said, everything else is increasing in value for money, while GW is seriously decreasing in value for money over time, and this doesn't make sense to me thus it leads to me wanting to spend my money elsewhere.

BEEGfrog, you are correct in GW pricing policy. That is indeed exactly what they are doing. I honestly think it is a very poor policy and I can't see how they thought it would be successful with any kind of market research or even the most basic knowledge of economics. They are going to (probably rather soon) hit a point where the increase in price no longer covers the decrease in sales as a result of the price and start losing value. This, I believe, will happen very rapidly since wargaming is a hobby where you NEED to know other people in the hobby to get satisfaction out of it. As people drop out, and those putting up with the prices start losing opponents and gaming buddies, they too will leave. Often to whatever hobby the first people have gone to. This will lead to an exponential loss of customers.

They are already at the point for many parents where the advantage of little Jimmy wanting to do something not screen based for a change is outweighed by the price. The entry cost for the hobby is huge; we often forget that someone starting not only needs to buy an army, they need very expensive army books, expensive modelling tools, and expensive paints. Yes, you can get the tools and paint cheaper elsewhere, but GW staff are not going to suggest that, they are going to shove their expensive tools in thei customers' faces too. Basic paints and tools from GW to get started is probably an additional $100 or so in Aus these days. Its much cheaper for a parent to buy their kids a new console and several games than to just get started on two armies.

The funny thing is, that is the market GW is trying to get hold of. They are focusing solely on the kids whose parents will pay to get them in, they'll stay for a couple months, then leave. They just aren't making it economically viable for that to happen. I thought they were starting to when Assault on Black Reach cost less than $100 on release, but all of a sudden it is now $165 (another massive % increase in a very short time) and no longer looks like an easy, cheap way to start.

 

[Lord Cedric]

In a "round-about-way", I think we are all on the same page. Though I'd really hate to see GW smother themselves with a poor business model, I hope they begin to see what we already know and actually do something about it.
A few years ago, some members of my RPG group who I am trying to get into the hobby keep saying "Warhammer.. that's a rich-man's hobby". Though I dissagreed with them at the time, they are essentially correct in that this hobby isn't cheap by any standards in comparison to the products. So in order for me to have some local competition (small town), I have purchased several armies over the course of a few years just so I'd have the models available so others who can't spend the $ can at least enjoy the wargaming version of the hobby with me. Now I have enough players for some diverse games.. but Im still the only ones with an army.
So yeah. If GW can change their BM and MM and lower their prices for a more competitive range, then I KNOW I can get more people involved with their own models.

 

[Batu]

You definitely can not look at the change in gas prices as a guide to inflation. Oil prices are not market Supply/demand driven but purchased on speculation which is totally different.

However, to say that the costs of other consumer goods indexing can not provide a reasonable indication of how the costs of production affect GW is wrong. How prices change in other sectors of business, (other consumer goods) will provide a reasonable indication how how costs of production are impacting the price of the goods.

A perfect example would be mantic miniatures, Ral Partha, Essex, Reaper etc. etc. etc. The change in production costs for GW would be similar to these other miniature companies. (they use the same production material) One can also search online for the basic cost of metal, plastic or resin and compare costs now to last year. The cost to produce a unit of Saurus Warriors, once the molds are cast is not significantly different the the cost of the plastic ship/plane found at Wal Mart. The price increases the WHFB hobbyist had incurred over the last 5 years is exploitative. The problem, WHFB was/is the only table top miniature game and the only miniatures available for that game. Where there is a monopoly, there is exploitation.

IMO (yes opinion) the primary problem with GW is the fact the CEO etc have a business model that simply does not work. Slow release of books (primary problem), poor rules writing and a history of army books that are abusive to their own core rules does not warrant itself to bringing in new players. This in itself does not lend to the growth of their company. The slow release of books lends itself to power creep (major issue with WFB in prior editions), books that are not thoroughly tested (look at ogres that book is crap) and writers not really designing the books for the rules. This could be seen in the garbage that was the 6th ed Skaven and 7th ed VC etc. Which one writer in particular did major damage to the game.
(thankfully he was fired)


However, the runaway increase in cost is probably (speculation) to mismanagement and a business model that is simply asinine. A 60% increase in price (as strewart pointed out) is not realistic in any game production. Or realistic in any consumer product where material cost have not increased equally. Perhaps instead of looking at raising costs, the CEO should analyze how the "millions" are being spent. I do not see that the product (changes) GW has produced since 5th edition has significantly changed or representative of hundreds or even tens of millions of pounds he claims are spent in design. While rules have changed the basic design of the game has not. Nor would the redesign of the new units be representative of millions and millions and millions of pounds in cost. How much does the redesign of the TG unit, paying the master sculptor and developing a mold cost? probably not that much, hundred thousand? two? Certainly not millions. How much money is spent in the plastic to pour that mold? Not much, certainly not more then in a model ship kit purchased for $10.

The best thing that could happen to GW is to be taken over by another company and run correctly. Or for companies like MANTIC to produce miniatures that can be substituted for GW miniatures. The latter is a trend that I believe will continue and eventually force GW to reign in their spending/costs and redesign their business model. Especially as MANTIC expands their miniature line to fit the other Fantasy Army Books.

Changes need to come in GW starting with the CEO. The mentality they have will, and I believe we are seeing the beginning, will significantly hurt GW over the next decade. This will be accelerated as companies like MANTIC realize there is a huge opportunity to produce miniatures for Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy. Unless you are a GW tournament player who plays in the huge regional tournaments, GW miniatures simply are not needed. Manic miniatures will work at a fraction of the cost. Not even my local game store (independent) enforces the GW only models for the local GW tournaments.

We can only hope for other companies to start producing miniatures that are a direct competition to GW and usable for the GW games. As competition increases, prices will decrease driven by a sound market economy (supply/demand/competition). GW is similar to the US car manufacturers of the 70s. What we build you buy, or don't drive a car. MANTIC etc. will (hopefully) prove to be the HONDA/TOYOTA of the miniature industry.

 

[BEEGfrog]

While Batu makes some good points he is wrong about others.

The irrelevant one first: the oil market is entirely supply and demand driven, that is why the speculators are there. Speculators cannot affect the long term pricing of a product although they can make a lot of money in the short term wobbles in the long term trend.

GW's prices aren't related to the direct costs of the goods. The direct costs of the models are so small in relation to the selling price that changes in direct costs are mostly irrelevant to the price of the models.

GW's prices are due to the overhead costs of maintaining a large number of shops, a corporate headquarters and management sized for the "good old days" and the legal costs of threatening everyone and his brother with legal action (legal actions which don't get their costs paid by the opposition!).

In the short term (years) they can get away with this because demand for hobby goods is inelastic, in the medium to long term (decades) all demand is elastic. GW are using up "goodwill" capital to bolster up their overhead rich business model in the short term. It should be noted that their business model has allowed them to survive and dominate a market once ruled by others (TSR, SPI, AH - who dey now?).

The biggest issue is why a dominant player in an area (games & hobbies) that normally is extremely successful in a recession is having troubles when they should be making a fortune! The rise of Mantic, poker leagues and others demonstrates how well games and hobbies are doing while GW has lost its way.

GW should not be bowing down to the accountants who are saying maximise short term profit by raising prices and cutting low margin lines. This leads to the slow death spiral we are seeing now. They need to regain the vision that saw them expanding product lines to increase volume to increase the revenue base to support the overhead their stores generate. This will need positive goodwill growth so gamers will again start to encourage newcomers to invest in GW games instead of pointing out the price differential with the opposition. In the real world GW will only lose revenues with a price cut, but they should announce a price freeze (probably limited to sterling prices but linked to actual exchange rates) for a fixed period of 3 to 5 years but then try to drive up volume to compensate.

 

[strewart]

The problem I see with a price freeze is GW is constantly coming out with new products and updating their lines. Even if they freeze prices of current models, GW greed will make them set a higher price for the new model/unit to come out. Its not increasing prices, its just setting a price for a new product!

Case in point, the Storm of Magic book in Australia is a very hefty $83. Thats 89 USD, 63 euro, 56 GBP. What a joke.

 

[Lord Cedric]

Though my all-things-warhammer-fantasy gamer in myself is curious about Storm of Magic, I really have no intentions of playing it.. Im fine with the current system. As much as I like medieval fantasy.. Im tempted in doing a non-magic game. Anyone remember Warhammer Ancients? I have a rule book for it and it looks pretty fun imo. But Ive never see any models for it anymore.. much like Warmaster.

 

[Batu]

While Batu makes some good points he is wrong about others.

The irrelevant one first: the oil market is entirely supply and demand driven, that is why the speculators are there. Speculators cannot affect the long term pricing of a product although they can make a lot of money in the short term wobbles in the long term trend.

Might try google on oil speculation. Oil prices are not simply supply and actual demand. here is one interesting article http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2011/06/senators-demand-limits-on-oil-speculation/
there are literally thousands of articles that say you are simply incorrect.
"These speculators drive up energy prices by pouring billions of dollars into commodities markets, in effect, creating a demand for futures that would not naturally exist if the only people in the market were users or consumers of a product." while it is not the sole driving force, it artificially alters the price so it is not a true or pure market driven resource. and my point was, that looking at how oil prices have changed is not a way for people to gauge how GW prices should change.


GW's prices aren't related to the direct costs of the goods. The direct costs of the models are so small in relation to the selling price that changes in direct costs are mostly irrelevant to the price of the models.

GW's prices are due to the overhead costs of maintaining a large number of shops, a corporate headquarters and management sized for the "good old days" and the legal costs of threatening everyone and his brother with legal action (legal actions which don't get their costs paid by the opposition!).

Perhaps they should eliminate the "fat" because the GW stores are simply not any better then an independent store. By any stretch of the imagination. So if that is the reason for the asinine costs, they should close them down so the price of the goods are in line with the price. but perhaps that is yet another flaw in their business model. Are there Essex stors, Mini fig Stores, no. why because they are not conducive to a good business model and absolutely not needed.

In the short term (years) they can get away with this because demand for hobby goods is inelastic, in the medium to long term (decades) all demand is elastic. GW are using up "goodwill" capital to bolster up their overhead rich business model in the short term. It should be noted that their business model has allowed them to survive and dominate a market once ruled by others (TSR, SPI, AH - who dey now?).

A better example would be Mini Fig, DBA, Essex and other table top miniature wargames companies. Their ( GW) business model allows them to survive because they are the ONLY market for fantasy miniature wargame. Until recently they were not the big dog....they were the ONLY DOG. That appears to be changing, competition is a good thing. Again, GW is the Ma Bell or US Car companies of the 70s.

The biggest issue is why a dominant player in an area (games & hobbies) that normally is extremely successful in a recession is having troubles when they should be making a fortune! The rise of Mantic, poker leagues and others demonstrates how well games and hobbies are doing while GW has lost its way.

Miniature wargames have been around a lot longer then GW, and will be here long after they are forgotten. but I agree, GW has lost more then their way. MANTIC and others will, unless they become greedy, will take a large share of the market from GW. As I have seen, from this forum and others, few actually play in the GW tournaments, which is the only place GW minis are required/needed. but until very recently there WAS NO competition. lack of competition breeds contempt for the consumer.

GW should not be bowing down to the accountants who are saying maximise short term profit by raising prices and cutting low margin lines. This leads to the slow death spiral we are seeing now. They need to regain the vision that saw them expanding product lines to increase volume to increase the revenue base to support the overhead their stores generate. This will need positive goodwill growth so gamers will again start to encourage newcomers to invest in GW games instead of pointing out the price differential with the opposition. In the real world GW will only lose revenues with a price cut, but they should announce a price freeze (probably limited to sterling prices but linked to actual exchange rates) for a fixed period of 3 to 5 years but then try to drive up volume to compensate.

[b]Greed is an amazing thing. The top management must make a lot of $ because they certainly are not in line with other miniature developers. nor is the product all the well written, designed, balanced or play tested. Contempt, you buy GW or you simply do not play a fantasy miniature game. [/b]

 

[Lingbei]

The problem I see with a price freeze is GW is constantly coming out with new products and updating their lines. Even if they freeze prices of current models, GW greed will make them set a higher price for the new model/unit to come out. Its not increasing prices, its just setting a price for a new product!

Case in point, the Storm of Magic book in Australia is a very hefty $83. Thats 89 USD, 63 euro, 56 GBP. What a joke.

That is ridiculous :/ It's £30 here and I thought that was steep :/

 

[BEEGfrog]

There are 4 main drivers to the price of oil, in order of the timescale they affect the market they are:
- Speculation - (very short term) as speculation is essentially a form of gambling it affects the price minute by minute and largely depends on how the speculators feel. Despite what a lot of people say the general effect of speculation over the medium to long term is to smooth out price fluctuations and make the market work more efficiently
- Natural events/conditions (short to medium term) If there is bad weather in the USA then the price of jet fuel goes up. These events tend to produce known reactions to changes are quick and smooth. Speculators help with the market's smooth reaction to these events.
- Natural disasters and political events - Middle east wars and political manouverings in eastern europe have affected oil supply and thus prices. Unpredicted disasters that damage oil production facilities also fall into this category. As these are one-off events their effect on prices is more chaotic and tends to be exagerrated by speculation in the short term but speculators tend to speed the market finding a new balance point.
- The last factor is becoming more important - oil supplies are finite and we are running out. This has been masked as oil exploration has changed the reserves we didn't know about into reserves we know about. We are now getting to the point where the total of known reserves is starting to fall as we use oil faster than we locate new reserves. Supply is constrained so prices will be going up and will keep going up. Speculation has little effect on this factor in the medium to long term, if speculators push up the price faster than its natural rate of increase then higher cost reserves like oil shales will be brought online faster slowing the rate of price increase.

Apologies for this dissertation on the oil industry and why the speculators (though evil money grubbers) aren't as evil as most make out (think of them as nurglings - I do ).

 

[BEEGfrog]

The problem I see with a price freeze is GW is constantly coming out with new products and updating their lines. Even if they freeze prices of current models, GW greed will make them set a higher price for the new model/unit to come out. Its not increasing prices, its just setting a price for a new product!

Case in point, the Storm of Magic book in Australia is a very hefty $83. Thats 89 USD, 63 euro, 56 GBP. What a joke.

That is ridiculous :/ It's £30 here and I thought that was steep :/

It isn't greed, it is stupidity and ignorance. If they were intelligently greedy they would freeze the price and make a big press ballyhoo about it. They should also at least lay out a road plan to even out currency differences.

I am not saying they should do this because it is the right and proper thing to do (although it is) but because it is self-destructively stupid not to do so. They may not be able to make price cuts in the short term because of their current overheads and commercial contracts. But if they don't do something they will drive people away from them, they will allow competitors to enter the market and they will cause a "grey market" or worse a "black market" to form.

Driving people away will both restrict the size of the market and increase the share that their competitors are able to grab. Although GW have tried to restrict the grey market by banning overseas sales all they are doing is increasing the margin that grey marketeers can make for themselves, increasing the desirability of putting product into the grey market. Once the grey market is marginalised without eliminating the price differentials between regions then the market becomes ripe for a black market to develop. Not only would I expect vigorous legal competion to appear in or be attracted to the australasian market, but if it is big enough I would expect to start seeing forgeries to appear.

Depending on the volume/growth/competitor activity in the australasian market I would expect to see a small markup over UK/US prices due to increased distribution costs. 5% - 15% would be reasonable: 85% is excessive. As long as we are talking about container loads of product into the country then shipping costs are not the cause of the price differential.

I have been priced out of the market for Storm of Magic when it went over £15 and it stopped being an automatic buy at £10. I used to buy all the army books of my 7 armies and 2 or 3 main opponents, now my main opponents and I discuss who will buy each book.

 

[strewart]

Hey feel free to argue with me, I'm just another person with another opinion really. I know I'm not always right, and I know there will always be people that will disagree with me. Now let me go back through and make a few small counter arguments.

Damn, you actually had me until there.

I hate to argue with you strewart, as your Lizzie knowledge trumps mine by far, you generally seem clever, and you are, of course, a mod, but a pice of plastic CANNOT be compared to a PS3, or another device.

I was not trying to directly compare plastic to electronics, if you look at my post as a whole rather than just that quote. I was comparing GW prices to basically everything else, and trying broadly to cover other areas of entertainment which people could potentially be doing instead of wargaming. In that case, I was showing that while almost everything else there is increases in value as technology advances and time passes, GW products actually manage to decrease in value. You can see this blatently and directly when GW rereleases old models from years ago; lots of 20+ year old models are being made available again. This are essentially old moulds that have not only covered their costs, but made a profit. Yet GW brings them back out with large markups. The closest examples I can give right now are the SoM Lammasu, Great Taurus, Fen Beast and Emissaries. I don't actually know their previous prices, but I can guarantee it was a lot less than they are going for now. They have also changed the material from metal to cheaper resin, yet put a large markup on. When a game goes platinum of gold, it goes a LOT cheaper than it used to be, though you will not agree with this comparison it is actually not bad. Once a game is designed, that is basically the end of the costs, burning onto disc and packaging is next to nothing. Once a model has been designed, same thing. Throw some cheap material into a mould, get a model, package.

Most people who want a PS3 will buy one within a year of release. This is the time it takes for a massive game release to come around, every birthday and Christmas to happen, and for those saving up for one to do so. During this time, the PS3 prices will be unreasonable.
However, after a year or so, demand will die down, and Sony will reduce its prices to attract those who are unsure, these new, "bargain" prices will be reasonable.

I disagree. Yes, there is certainly the short term demand vs long term demand argument. Books come out hardcover person, some people say I want it NOW and buy, others say I will wait for the cheaper paperback in a few months. Same happens for the console, but I wouldn't agree that 'most' of the sales happen in the first year. I know loads and loads of people who said looks great, I will wait until the price comes down to buy. There are also always new people entering the console gaming market, they don't know what it used to cost, they just know they want it. And in fact the PS3 is still a pretty decent way to get hold of a blueray player, so lots of people looking to buy or upgrade one of them will go for it. And can't you think of GW the same way? Big spike in sales to start with (especially for something like SoM, which will die in a few months), then the immediate demand goes away. Time for a price drop then so the people who waited or are on the fence will pick it up? No. GW instead INCREASES prices within a year, which surely only pushes those on the fence people away.

GW on the other hand, tries to stay reasonable, and increase its prices when it must ( or at least, I hope it does. A hike on metal models a few years ago was directly connected with a global rise in tin prices. I know, I checked, and oil prices have CERTAINLY risen. Perhaps the resin increase is because of all the new moulds they have to make, and the price will decrease.)

Again, I have to disagree. GW does not try to stay reasonable, they try to set their price as high as they think will still sell. You only need to look at other miniature companies to see that GW prices are nowhere near their production costs. Mantic are generally half the cost, they switched to resin and could afford to double the number of models for the same price, Spartan Games will give me a decent sized force of resin and metal for just 25 GBP, Perry Miniatures sells boxes of 40 odd plastic men for only 16 pounds, the list goes on.

Also, yes GW did increase prices in response to the increase in tin cost. However, they certainly did not need to. The cost of raw materials has always been a very small fraction of the final cost of the model. I was going to go into numbers here, but I have decided I really don't want to. Raw material cost is mostly insignificant for GW. It is a big part of the reason for the switch to resin though; metal prices fluctuate a lot while resin will stay basically the same.

I don't know why it's been so stupid down under. Up here in jolly old England it's been existent, but bearable. Perhaps if the letter dude was lying, it's something to do with the Aus$ on the global market?

 

[strewart]

Well today, SoM is $83 which is 55GBP, so a shade below 60. To be honest, I think even 30GBP is pushing it for the cost of a supplement book, so yes the $83 is absolutely insane.

Mantic Games do not make a Lizard army YET. You can be sure that they will at some point, however, at this stage I would say it would be at least a year, but likely more before they do. They are currently working very hard to get their Warpath game (sci-fi, to compete with 40k) on the market while everyone is still pissed at GW, and have a few other armies for KoW planned before thinking about lizards.

 

[Mister Blak]

Hey strewart! You may remember me as that guy who always argues with you!

It seems that my whole account and all my posts were deleted. If I did something to offend you or another mod, I'm sorry but I didn't realise.
Would you care to shed some light on this?

Mister Blak


PS: my account may seem the same, but that's because I remade it. I'm saying this to you because if I annoyed any mod it was probably you. Sorry...

 

[Sammy the Squib]

Hey strewart! You may remember me as that guy who always argues with you!

It seems that my whole account and all my posts were deleted. If I did something to offend you or another mod, I'm sorry but I didn't realise.
Would you care to shed some light on this?

Mister Blak


PS: my account may seem the same, but that's because I remade it. I'm saying this to you because if I annoyed any mod it was probably you. Sorry...

I accidentally deleted your account when I killed a group of spambots yesterday; of the (literally) hundreds of bots I've shot down I've never managed to catch an actual member in the crossfire before!

My sincere apologies old chum, you certainly haven't annoyed any mods that I'm aware of!

 

[Mister Blak]

It seems that my whole account and all my posts were deleted. If I did something to offend you or another mod, I'm sorry but I didn't realise.
Would you care to shed some light on this?

Mister Blak


PS: my account may seem the same, but that's because I remade it. I'm saying this to you because if I annoyed any mod it was probably you. Sorry...


I accidentally deleted your account when I killed a group of spambots yesterday; of the (literally) hundreds of bots I've shot down I've never managed to catch an actual member in the crossfire before!

My sincere apologies old chum, you certainly haven't annoyed any mods that I'm aware of!

It's ok sammy the squib, you were doing something necessary. I wondered what the hell that guy was doing.


Sorry to drag this discussion off topic, but I thought this would be the easiest one to get a mod's attention on.

 

[Little Wolf]

Just a couple of points:

- "Most people who want a PS3 will buy one within a year of release. This is the time it takes for a massive game release to come around, every birthday and Christmas to happen, and for those saving up for one to do so. During this time, the PS3 prices will be unreasonable."

Production costs of game consoles are huge. On the PS3, as often happens with consoles, Sony actually lost money for the first year or so. They PAID to get someone a PS3. They get this money back with game purchases, but you cannot say it is an unreasonable prize if it's actually BELOW production cost.

- Oil prizes are absolutely relevant to compare to GW prizes as it's the main material for plastic. So oil goes up = production prize goes up.

- I absolutely disgust the Games Workshop. Whenever I come in, that shop breathes "We're gonna take your money whether you like it or not". Maybe it's because their 'customer service' is not what we're used to in the Netherlands, but when I enter a shop, I don't want people to start 'helping' me unless I ask for help. They always suggest a more expensive product whenever I get tricked into actually stating what I want. I honestly think I would have gotten into the hobby 5 years earlier if I didn't always get scared away by the pushiness of the employees. Thank god for internet stores or I would have already quit.

Luckily I'm a girl and usually go in with my boyfriend who also plays, and I'm pretty sure one of their policies is 'If there's a mixed gender group, the girl is probably just there with the guy so forget about her, talk to him'. He can usually buy me a couple of minutes to just calmly look at the models, decide what I want, and then go home and buy it on the internet .

 

[strewart]

Production costs of game consoles are huge. On the PS3, as often happens with consoles, Sony actually lost money for the first year or so. They PAID to get someone a PS3. They get this money back with game purchases, but you cannot say it is an unreasonable prize if it's actually BELOW production cost.

Simple fact though is Sony would not have made the PS3 the way they did if they didn't think they would get profits from it. If you factor in production costs, R&D, design etc. most products are actually unprofitable in the first year or so. Sony would have known that full well, they would have known there would be no profit for the first year then the profits would roll in after that. This is a good way to run the business; if they set prices much higher (regardless of profit, the price was still very high in their market) there would have been much less sales and it would have taken longer to break even.

GW hasn't understood this. Start-up costs for resin were high, so they bumped up prices which reduced sales. This is especially bad because once a model is designed, they can keep making it very cheaply for years and years while the PS3 will only get about 5 years before it is rendered obsolete by the next gen stuff. They should have kept prices the same or reduced them because long term their costs will be much lower, this would have enabled more sales and maybe a bit longer before the line was profitable, but it would have definitely got there.