Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) because for 110ish points you get a wizard bunker, a unit that can hold steadfast decently well, and 20 poison shots. it also can have a banner, and get combat res just from ranks. there is value in that. for only 5 points a pop, they are a bargain. 60 cohorts 40 skirmishers is a pretty competitive core. 3x20 blocks of cohorts give or take a few, 4x10 skirmishers. they are both very good, the difference is minimal. but i'd say overall cohorts are the better unit, if i had to choose just one.
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) Not as much as I originally believed. They are still good at smashing up and pinning down monsters. I'd like to get some more practice with them, but they don't really work in this list: for a start, any characters joining would have to hang out on the edge. Secondly, a Skink-Kroxigor unit is less of a delivery system for an Oldblood than it becomes a semi-independent unit in its own right. I also don't really feel the need for the Krox when I have my Temple Guard/BSB/Oldblood unit to go hunt armour. I also really really want to make Saurus work.
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (revised list - advice sought) Hey mate, Just looking through your list here. Just a few questions on your reasons for some choices: 1: Why the units of cohorts over skirmishers? Is it purely for the numbers? 2: Why didn't you buy light armour for your old bloods? 2.1: I would have swapped the oldbloods' shields. I figure the one with the 4+ ward save could more afford less of an armour save than the one with no ward save at all 3: I'm also curious as to why you've gone with temple guard, as you have no slann. I feel you could spend the points on a few more pleb saurus and cast wildform to give them the extra strength - not as reliable, but as you haven't taken the razor standard with the TG, you might be able to get away with SW instead. Cheers!
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) Hi NexS1! Some good questions there. 1: Why the units of cohorts over skirmishers? Is it purely for the numbers? Partly the numbers, but more the utility that those numbers provide. A minimum size unit of Cohorts can throw itself in the way of something for a turn or bunker a character for a short while, but they tend to expend themselves quickly. Double the number, double the longevity (and shots!), and Skinks being Skinks they are still cheap. I've also found that they hold up characters and monsters remarkably well with just 10, so the logic stands that they should do an even better job with 20. But survival isn't the only thing that's important: they can also effectively garrison buildings, provide a mobile firebase, jump into a flank to deny ranks, take multiple Priests rather than just one, and Banners are always important for Fortitude.` And whilst Skirmishers are great for their mobility and redirection, they aren't so great at holding anything up in combat because they don't have ranks or Steadfast. In an ideal world I'd have equal numbers of each (and maybe some 10 strong Cohorts), but then I'd be bordering on full Skink Cloud which I want to avoid. 2: Why didn't you buy light armour for your old bloods? This is actually a typo! The one on foot should have light armour to get a 1+, but the mounted one doesn't need it as he is already there with Scaly Skin, Mounted and Charmed Shield (which is cheaper than both mundane armour and a mundane shield!) 2.1: I would have swapped the oldbloods' shields. I figure the one with the 4+ ward save could more afford less of an armour save than the one with no ward save at all Charmed Shield is on the mounted Oldblood to dodge cannon balls, as I'm without any Look Out Sirs for him in this list. 3: I'm also curious as to why you've gone with temple guard, as you have no slann. I feel you could spend the points on a few more pleb saurus and cast wildform to give them the extra strength - not as reliable, but as you haven't taken the razor standard with the TG, you might be able to get away with SW instead. There's a couple of reasons for Temple Guard over more Saurus, the most important one of which is that I like the models and the fluff! WS4 and S5 means that they require much less magical support than Saurus do to deliver, which mitigates the risk of something going wrong (a Scroll, poor magic roll, Priest out of range, etc). Initiative 2 puts them at much less of a disadvantage vs Purple Fun. Overall, the superior stat line makes them much better for buffing - S6 from Wildform is much better than S5, for instance, and its much better to be hitting with those attacks on 3s than with S5 on 4s. Going from Initiative 2 to 3 from a nearby Blastydon is also much better than going from Initiative 1 to 2, as in addition to the 50% survival rate vs Purple Sun, you also swing simultaneously with most things, and ahead of some things - notably, big stompy monsters. Finally, they've also got that sweet 3+ save at range. In short, I think that even without a Slann, Temple Guard deliver a lot more for their points than Saurus do: either by doing more damage through hitting and wounding better, or taking less damage through attacking before Saurus would. Plus, there's also that magic banner. In this list I've gone for Swiftness so that they can get into combat and chopping things up quickly, but Gleaming Pennant, Standard of Discipline, Banner of Eternal Flame and of course Razor all work well. The only reason that I've avoided Razor in this list is that I'm relying on the Pirhana Oldblood and BSB Scar-Vet to do a lot of the armour-crunching, whilst it seems to be a bit of a waste to be losing 3-6 Razor standard attacks because of the models that the Cold One characters displace.
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) Good answers mate! I still wouldn't bother with cohorts unless I'm taking kroxies, as skinks are basically free combat res. I rarely face armies that are <Init4 so I guess I'm speaking from my meta. there are a lot of armies that skinks fight before - so your rationale makes sense! Oh, typo, makes sense. Also, I missed the cold one note on the second guy. Perfectly reasonable! And as the only monster you have is a basty (who is useless in combat), the cannon target will be the old blood. If your general is going into the TG unit, I'd definitely do away with the swiftness and put in the Standard of Discipline. LD9 Inspiring Presence will be important for your Cold one oldblood and his unit's stupidity test every turn. Re Purple Sun. It doesn't really explain it in the book, but my understanding is that it's like a stone thrower, but instead of hits, you roll an initiative test for any model that is under the template after it scatters. Or does it hit every model it travels over? (I've never used it or come up against anyone who has) If it's the latter, the TG+Basty is very good combo to mitigate the potential disaster.
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) i'd reevaluate cohorts. they are very good. worst case scenario they shoot just as well as skirmishers
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) The damn things never rank up. I hate it when it doesn't rank up! Haha Also, my last game, a fantastic thing happened where I miscast with a skink priest and did nothing because he was in a unit of skirmishers and had no models in base contact. It was glorious! That, and I'd have to convert a command group (which I haven't yet done!)
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) Fair enough I tend to just run them with musicians anyways. I'm lazy and use use a guy with a blow pipe in a squad of javelins... figure it can be a clarinet or something!
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) So, after the event I went to I came away with a few changes that I wanted to make to the list. Briefly: -Skink Priests were okay, but I found their array of spells limiting. I was especially lacking for some ranged damage as Thunderbolt/Chain Lightning/Comet are all fairly high casting values, whilst the Bastiladon is unreliable at best. -Despite being awesome, the Bastiladon is a cannon magnet. -Mounted characters without LoS are cannon bait as well. -Saurus Warriors actually aren't that bad. -Ripperdactyls work best in multiples, or not at all. One is just a big target for any BS shooting. -A Scar-Vet with the Quango Egg can probably do the same job as the Oldblood but for much less. -Camo Skinks are great, but 9/10 they don't do more than Skink Skirmishers (running in front of things); and the occasion where they are warmachine hunting is irrelevant if there aren't any warmachine targets. -Don't leave the Standard of Discipline at home. With that in mind, and an upcoming event at 2400, I wrote the following list: Slann, Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll. Oldblood with Pihrana Blade, Dawn Stone, Potion of Strength, Charmed Shield, Cold One. Scar-Veteran with Armour of Destiny, Great Weapon, Cold One, BSB. Scar-Veteran with Enchanted Shield, Egg of Quango,Sword of Striking, Light Armour. Tetto'ekko. 18 Saurus Warriors, HW&S, Full Command. 10 Skink Skirmishers, Javelins and Shields 10 Skink Skirmishers, Javelins and Shields 18 Skink Cohort, Javelins and Shields, Standard and Musician. 20 Skink Cohort, Javelins and Shields, Standard and Musician. 25 Temple Guard, Full Command, Standard of Discipline. 3 Terradons 6 Cold One Riders, Standard. Earlier in the week it went up against a Wood Elf list as a field test and... it did not perform very well. Again, summarised my findings were: -Whilst it was awesome to have the Slann, and especially Light, back - 5/6 turns I rolled 4-6 dice for a magic phase and got off one spell in each of those phases. I don't think I channeled once the whole game. That's terrible for investing ~600 points in magic. I see now why the Channeling Staff is considered mandatory. -Tetto's vanguard and re-roll 1s is awesome. -Cold One Riders also aren't all that bad. They Vanguarded up with the BSB, lost 4 of their guys, but the remaining models killed ~8 Glade Guard, ran the rest down and a unit of Waywatchers behind. Whilst not outstanding, this is the role I wanted Ripperdactyls for - the big difference here being the better armour save (vs non Waywatcher shooting) and higher Toughness. -The Quango Scar-Vet was garbage. This is the 7th game in a row where I've rolled a 1, 2 or 3 with the Egg and seen it done nothing. Meanwhile, the Vet himself fluffed his attacks despite the +1 to hit. Whilst I've no doubt built up a lot of Egg luck, and I love the item, he's out. -Lost 8 Temple Guard to a single Dangerous Terrain test in their Vanguard - that's before a shot is fired. Can't really do anything about that, but wanted to mention how unlucky it was. So, with the above in mind I have altered the list again. The Oldblood has been downgraded to be on foot and traded his Dawn Stone for a Luckstone. This allows the Slann to Convergence, the Staff and Becalming for some additional dispel helps as I can't fit in a scroll caddy. The Oldblood will for now hangout in the Temple Guard, which with Tetto's Vanguard should probably be a tempting target for any multi-wound monsters. He's a little more vulnerable, but I'm hoping to counter that with Light/Heavens buffs. Otherwise, the only major change is that the Scar-Vet has been given the Oldblood's Cold One and Dawn Stone. Slann, Lore of Light, Harmonic Convergence, Channeling Staff, Becalming Cogitations. Oldblood with Pihrana Blade, Luck Stone, Potion of Strength, Enchanted Shield, Light Armour. Scar-Veteran with Armour of Destiny, Great Weapon, Cold One, BSB. Scar-Veteran with Dragonhelm, Dawn Stone, Great Weapon, Cold One. Tetto'ekko. 18 Saurus Warriors, HW&S, Full Command. 10 Skink Skirmishers, Javelins and Shields 10 Skink Skirmishers, Javelins and Shields 18 Skink Cohort, Javelins and Shields, Standard and Musician. 20 Skink Cohort, Javelins and Shields, Standard and Musician. 26 Temple Guard, Full Command, Standard of Discipline. 3 Terradons 6 Cold One Riders, Standard. Please criticize/comment away!
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) Getting 1 spell off each turn with below average Winds isn't too bad. I'm afraid that even with the channeling staff you might not be getting a second spell through on the regular. When running the Slann with 4 spells from a regular lore, I wouldn't have too many high expectations that he will perform better than any other level 4. He doesn't cost any more than a level 4 Elf wizard with the 4+ ward talisman so your expectations probably shouldn't be any higher for the Slann that they would be for any other regular Level 4. Now, once you give him the Channeling Staff, Harmonic and Becalming be becomes a frog of a different color! He's still not reliably better at casting, but he's a dispelling beast!
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) Yes, that's a very good point and to be truthful I don't see him as any more than a regular level 4 on Light (4 spells isn't too bad when you have Tetto's Loremaster anyway). The point of the Channelling Staff is to be insurance for those low magic dice phases where every power dice counts, despite the additional cost. There's few ways to make the Slann a better caster these days anyway, and of those that are available (Reservoir and a Skink Priest with Forbidden Rod I guess) are more than I want to spend on magic.
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) I tend to make the Slann bsb so that he can take the Standard of Discipline, Leaving the Temple guard open to take the razor banner or the jaguar standard. Having the BSB in the stubborn unit is excellent for hanging around (and with less numbers in the Cold one unit, there's more chance of them breaking and dying), but the risk then is that if the TG unit breaks you lose your BSB and general at the same time... GOtta weigh it up, I guess..
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) Yeah, I'd do that too as it opens up the Scar-Vets to be a lot more flexible because they come in cheaper and won't auto-die when breaking from combat. However, with the Oldblood I have its not possible to fit it into Lords allowance unless I drop Becalming. And I think that for now I'd rather keep that.
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen (Tournament list v2) So, I've been thinking about the list and I'm not altogether happy with it. As much as I love the Oldblood, he's a ~220 point investment to hunt Daemon Princes. Every other multi-wound monster, character or Monstrous Cav I'm pretty confident about being able to deal with through the rest of the tools in the list (in other words, Great Weapon Scar-Vets and Light buffed Temple Guard). And on this build at least, he could still do with some buffs to get the job done. Well, Scar-Vets can have a go at killing Daemon Princes with sufficient buffs, too - and I can spend the points used much more wisely on other match ups. For now, then, the Oldblood is gone. In his place the Temple Guard get the Razor Standard to pick up the armour-busting slack, whilst the Standard of Discipline and BSB get shifted to the Slann himself. With the spare points I'm also going to try a new experiment - that's right, Spears on Cold One Cav. Woah. Way overcosted, but with Speed of Light or Timewarp you never know - they might achieve something. This bumps them up from Scar-Vet delivery system/Objective capture unit to medium combat/baby Vet bus. Although its incredibly irritating having, literally, just finished painting up 6 with Hand Weapons on the assumption I'll only ever want them as Scar-Vet wound characters, and now needing to paint another 6 with Spears... The remaining 150ish points are going on a Bastiladon. I've had some poor luck with the guy recently, but I do love the model, he's great against pesky Elf fast cav (having convincingly beaten Glade Riders, Wild Riders and Dark Riders in combat before), and I'm a big fan of having multiple counters to flammable things, rather than relying on one (easily dispellable) Burning Gaze from the Slann. I am, though, a little concerned about overburdening my power dice between the Slann, Tetto and the Lazer, and ultimately it may be better putting his points towards a third Vet, a second unit of Terradons, or a cheapish Oldblood on foot.
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen Lists You've moved BSB onto your Slann, whereas I've now just moved it off him! I lost him in the warp last game and gave away 200+VP just in that one stupid dice roll, and no surprise it's made me nervous (as Murphy tends to follow me everywhere). I was happy to see the extra points available in the lords slot, so i could give my Blade of Realities wielder that much needed cold one and Soul of Stone on the Slann. (will be trialling the combo soon!) I never let the Cold one Riders leave home without their spears. Ever! I need a bust-through charge, and I can get the extra strength lost in round 2 back with my beast priest, leaving the charge-turn's magic phase to Lore of Light the crap out of my other attributes. I agree with your decision to take the basty. In a list with a slann, maybe tetto is a bit of a waste of points if you're not looking at trying to get a whole-army vanguard. The bastiladon gives you the chance to legitimately threaten a main unit on 2 power dice (with the ability to get 2D6 Str5+ hits on a 4+). So it often draws out dispel dice, which I find is good for Lore of Light and Life because the buffs you cast are important to level the playing field with our sub-par Saurus warriors. I know that if I miss out on my tactical buffs, then Murphy will find me, rip my arm off and beat me with the wet end.
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen Lists You should try and run a WD slann with book of ashur and tetto' eko... hard to miscast when you only throw one die and your opponent will lose dice fast throwing 2 or 3 to guarantee his dispels, which in turn makes your basti more reliable in casting and keeps your TG alive. You can even skip the book if you like and do just as well if you want a scroll. I find D3 vanguards and a comet on his board edge turn one tends to get combat going pretty quickly. Not to mention dual ice shards can really mess with the reliability of an opponents warmachines so maybe the basti could survive more than a turn or two. My two cents. I've been a fan of this thread for a while; it's given me a couple ideas. Best of luck!
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen Lists The thing with the BSB is that I'm reluctant to keep it on the Scar-Vet, who I view as a surface-to-surface missile: you point him in the right direction, wind him up, and let 'em go to roll face. With a BSB, he's a lot more of an investment: +25 points for a start, with another +100 if he dies. It makes me nervous throwing him into things. In the game I played last week, he and his Cold One bros did a great job pushing a Wood Elf flank single-handedly - until they ran into a Treeman. The Vet didn't die on account of his Ward save, but he did auto-die when he broke from combat. Had he not been a BSB, there's a decent chance that he might have escaped to fight another day. With the Slann, the way I see it is if my 400 point Level 4 General falls down a hole, its not really going to change things much if he takes the BSB with him... I'm interested how you are finding COR though. What size do you run them, how do you play them on the battlefield, and hwo do you find that they work best? @teufelhund I'm not a huge fan of 1-dicing something - even with Tetto, its just too much of a risk on such an expensive model. And whilst the combo can be powerful on 2 dice, I think I'd rather have the additional power dice to offset poor WoM rolls. Its also an expensive combo, but it might be one that I try with Reservoir one day.
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen Lists Love the thread! I'm an EARLY 7th edition Lizardmen player, coming off my hiatus, and going to a tournament this weekend, 2800 points. Out of all the threads I've seen, I really like the direction/approach you're taking to the overall strategy of mobility and precision impact points. I have the misfortune of being matched up against WoC, Daemons, DE, and Ogres this weekend, so my logic may deviate from yours regarding specifics, but here's what I came up with, inspired by your list: LORDS Saurus Oldblood - Piranha Blade - Charmed Shield - Cold One - Dawnstone - Potion of Strength (Juicy Oldblood to hurt peoples, goes in the Saurus block, not much to him) Slann - BSB - Channeling Staff - Standard of Discipline - Harmonic Convergence - Wandering Deliberations (I like the WD Slann for LOW risk, high spell count, and it addresses issues of WoC, Daemons, Cannons, harassers, and characters each with different spells while giving me the option of Life/Beasts for buffs!) HEROES ( Tetto'eko (This may be an issue because I don't have a suitable model and there's no proxies allowed, so he might have to go, though I think he's a linchpin model with great abilities... despite you not running special characters ) Skink Priest - Level 2, Beasts - Dispel Scroll (The idea behind this is having the Dispel Scroll for the purple sun that isn't IF, an extra Wissan's just to get the buff where/when I need it, AND ran a level 2 because the lore of beasts has a lot of great utility... and what the heck.. maybe I can charge the priest in unawares to my opponent and turn it into a giant monster!!!!!) Scar Vet - Cold One - Sword of Might - Egg of Quango - Light Armor, Shield (I think my Scar Vet builds could be a lot more efficient, but I can't find a lot of other alternatives... I like the Egg and plan to use up your bad Egg luck in my favor! This one would be in the Saurus block with the OB) Scar Vet - Cold One - Stegadon Helm - Light Armor - Great Weapon (Again.. not positive about builds. This one would go in TG, go for the biggest baddest group, and/or function as a major challenger staller at T6 1+ AS.. and who knows.. might even get some wounds in at S7) CORE Saurus Warriors 26 - Full Command, Spears Skink Cohort x18 - 2 Kroxigors - Banner, std, javelins (For Tetto'eko) Skink Cohort x20 - Javelins Skink Cohort x10 - Javelins Skink Skirmishers x10 - Blowpipes Skink Skirmishers x10 - Blowpipes (Can anyone give any insight to javelins vs blowpipes? I've ALWAYS run blowpipes, but EVERYONE seems to be running javelins now) SPECIAL Temple Guard x22 - Full Command - Banner of Swiftness (was considering the razor standard, but I like the mobility and I'd have to shave points elsewhere NOT from core to accommodate it, plus, I have two mounted characters in this unit who would take away 2 attacks from supporters, so a minor sub-optimal play to run the razor standard) Teradons x3 RARE Salamander x2 Salamander x1 I may post another list without Tetto'eko, if I can't muster up SOMETHING, but otherwise... I'd like your thoughts and maybe help you find a list you really like. I wanted to run a steggie with sharpened horns, which is a possibility if I take out Tetto (or the lvl 2 and a sallies, plus a skink here or there)
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen Lists I'm glad people have been enjoying reading my posts. Interesting list! Just a couple of things that I think you should bare in mind. Saurus characters on Cold Ones - they are pretty much the shizzle, but as I discovered a couple of weekends ago... prime cannon sniping bait. You've got three of them with no Saurus Cav for them to hide in, which means Ironblasters and Skullcannons alike will be firing away. I can only suggest taking some Dragonbane Gems/Dragonhelms to offset that? The Oldblood can even go on foot - just swap his Charmed Shield for an Enchanted one, and give him light armour. That frees up the the Charmed to go on one of your Vets. WD is a solid choice, won't and can't deny it. I just really like Light, and don't really like paying an additional 30 points for spell selection. Tetto... ah, Tetto. Special Characters used to leave a bad taste in my mouth. But as you say, he's got some great key abilities. Its a shame that these are wrapped up in a SC, and I could easily swap him out for two Skink Priests, but right now he's making me enjoy playing Lizards again - and that's what counts. Lore of Beasts is a good lore no doubt. But you've already got Wildform from the Slann, plus all the Sig spells, plus Loremaster; it just seems you might be starved for power dice. Second Scar-Vet I would probably give Armour of Destiny over the Helm, but if you want to keep Helm then add DBG as above. Potion of Foolhardiness would also be fun! First Vet could probably do with Gamblers Armour (so in closed lists is unclear which one has AoD), or Dragonhelm + Luckstone and a Great Weapon. S6 is nice, but S7 is better. Why Tetto in the Kroxigor unit? I wouldn't really want him in combat. He can hang out in the 20 man Cohort instead. Javelins are favoured because they no longer cost to swap, and ignore movement penalties (Skinks tend to be moving a lot), and can always Stand and Shoot (Skinks tend to be standing in the way of things a lot). Its reliabilty in all situations over the chance of rolling a bunch of 6s in a few that you get with Blowpipes. In addition, with Javelins you get the Shield - and 5+6++ Skinks can really surprise you in combat! Something I learned recently - models stood behind mounted characters in a unit still get to make supporting attacks! Hoorah. That being said, Razor Standard is pricey, but worthwhile - you could make the points by dropping your Priest down to Level 1? 22 TG is on the lower side, and I try to keep to 24 as a minimum. As for the Steggy, those impact hits are great and he'd add to cannon target saturation for sure. But he's quite a lonesome guy without any other dinosaurs on the table - especially if you are dropping Tetto to bring him, he won't benefit from the Vanguard to get into combat sooner. I think that the Priest should stay on the grounds that those Saurus Warriors are just asking to be Purple Fun'd, as you say, but three Salamanders is probably more than necessary. You could drop one for some Camo Skinks or bump up the Temple Guard to 26ish? They are your main combat block and will no doubt be attracting a lot of attention, so could do with as many models as possible - and would be ideal to get them into a horde formation (26+Slann+2 Vets is the equivalent of a 34 man footprint). Hope this is of use to you. Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
Re: GCPD's Lizardmen Lists For me, the CoR are a distraction unit. I currently run it as a unit of 5 and often run them down the flank. Even 5 is a big enough unit to be somewhat imposing with 21 str4+ attacks coming out of it, it's not to be sneezed at. And so it divides the opponent's attention if they ignore them, then theure quite devastating. I used them to charge a unit of demi gryph knights (which took some of the sting off!) Then got speed of light off on them. It was blue murderaand the only unfortunate thing was I fluffed my pursuit rolls, then next turn stupidity which got them charged in the face. If I take more than 5 cold ones... Firstly, I'd have to convert more from Dark Elf knights, and secondly, I'd have to drop the bastiladon, which I'm not sure that I'm willing to do. I'm planning on trialling my bsb in a unit of 24 saurus with armour of fortune and great weapon. Hopefully steadfast will be enough to keep them around until help arrives. I'd also be interested to see your thoughts on my current list rework (in my Sig) if you've got any thoughts on it.