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AoS General's handbook feedback

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Tokek, Nov 14, 2018.

  1. Tokek
    Chameleon Skink

    Tokek Well-Known Member

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    The AoS Facebook page have a post up requesting feedback ahead of next year's General's Handbook.

    Post your opinions, especially regarding points values apparently.
     
    LizardWizard likes this.
  2. MackiMac
    Kroxigor

    MackiMac Well-Known Member

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    Here are some changes I would like to se that come to think about right away before looking in the book

    Either lower the points for Lord Kroak or buff him up again.

    Lower the points for Skink Starseer, Chameleon skinks, Skink handlers and Saurus Oldblood

    Reduced point cost for a maxed Saurus Guard unit

    Salamanders/Razordons should probably cost 50 points (I would'nt mind if they stayed at 40 though) :p

    Add the Skink Chief to the Seraphon
     
    Aginor likes this.
  3. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    I have no Facebook, so I'd be happy if one of you could post the following if you agree:

    Units in the need of -something- because they are rarely played. So probably too weak or too expensive
    - Troglodon
    - Oldblood on foot
    - Starseer
    - Kroxigor
    - Saurus Guard
    - Saurus Warriors
    - Kroak (yes, seriously. I understand he needed a nerf, but not THAT much)
     
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  4. Flo
    Kroxigor

    Flo Well-Known Member

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    Same as @Aginor no Facebook for me

    I agree with his thoughts and in my opinion, Saurus Warriors would be a lot more playable if they had a 4+ save, even if that would make them cost more

    Saurus Guard in the other hand need something against Mortal wounds
     
    Aginor likes this.
  5. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    I asked for fixed Bloodclaw and Kroak. Maybe, I'll make another post later.
     
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  6. Tokek
    Chameleon Skink

    Tokek Well-Known Member

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    Posted. Not going to post everything everyone says though, so if anyone else wants to step in and help out those who don't do Facebook...
     
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  7. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Much appreciated, thanks!
     
  8. Fer_Silfore
    Skink

    Fer_Silfore New Member

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    I would like to see these changes:

    -make Saurus Guard cost less OR give them an additional wound each and make the save better
    -make Saurus Warriors get better saves even if you need to max the unit
    -make Skink Starseer better in some way
    -make Saurus Oldblood better in some way
    -add Skink Cheif, Skink Prophet, Skink Stalker, and Jungle Swarms into AOS
    -make Kroak better even if slight
    -make Chameleon Skinks cost less
    -make Kroxigor cost a little less
    -make Troglodon hella better
    -give Skink generals far better abilities
    -give Saurus Knights a lances -1 rend
    -give us a new battalion
    -give us a new model or unit

    Of course most of these are ABSURD but I would severely love a few and like the rest of these changes. Especially if they made guard better. Even giving a new model for us to play and toy with would be a blessing of the Old Ones. I'm going to need someone to post this on Facebook though. sorry for the inconvenience.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
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  9. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Just in case it wasn't posted yet:
    Spell lore for Seraphon would be awesome.
     
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  10. Caleb ex nihilo
    Chameleon Skink

    Caleb ex nihilo Well-Known Member

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    My post:
    Carnosaurs - The carnosaurs are both overcosted for their damage output and combat prowess compared to similar monsters. Reduce their points.

    Skink Starseer - The starseer is overcosted by about 100 points. Its abilities are much cheaper to be taken as the command trait for any other skink general.

    Saurus Guard - They need 2 wounds per model to match other semi-elite battlelines of 5 models. OR reduce their cost by 30 pts so you can field 10 at a comparable cost of 120 pts.

    Skinks - Bring back the horde discount. 60/200
     
  11. Galen
    Saurus

    Galen Active Member

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    I think given the power of summoning that a small points increase for Slann and Astrolith Bearer wouldn't be out of the question. Not saying that I think it's strictly necessary but when those two units show up in just about every list it would be reasonable to expect GW to at least look at them.

    Aside from units, a points decrease to our lesser used battalions could be in order. Likewise, our more popular ones (Fangs of Sotek, Shadowstrike, Thunderquake) could be in line for a slight increase. Of the 3 I feel like Fangs is the least likely to get a points bump because it requires the Sunclaw, which isn't a particularly powerful choice. That being said, if Sunclaw got a decrease and Fangs an increase so they remain the same overall points cost, that would make sense to me.

    The Skink Starseer to me is the single unit most in need of a dire points drop. 200 points for an extra CP each turn on a 2+ and Curse of Fates is just not a good investment. You could spend the same points and have 4 CP from the start of the game. Even in a Saurus heavy list this is a poor choice.
     
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  12. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    If some units dominate some army list, while army itself doesn't dominate tournaments, you need to buff other stuff, not nerf the favorites. When Seraphon will be in every top-10 of GTs, like DoK, LoN, Khorne, SCE and Sylvaneth, then yes, let's talk about nerfs.
     
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  13. WarbossLincoln
    Skink

    WarbossLincoln New Member

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    IMO Seraphon need a buff to resiliency. They were a really tough army in WHFB and now they're a fairly flimsy one.

    5+ save on our shielded infantry
    4+ on our monsters
    3+ on Bastiladon

    5+ save on saurus warriors and knights is terrible. The shield helps a little but they are in no way a 10ppm unit. Mediocre offense and low defense. They need a buff or should go down to 8ppm.

    Knights have the same issue but are a bit better in offense.

    Our monsters should be 3+.

    Even the Bastiladon is fairly fragile in a world full of mortal wounds spam and 8 wounds, even with the save. Plus it can't get a 2+ save anymore.

    Firelance shouldn't be anywhere near 150 points.

    Personally I would rather see Seraphon get buffed to have better saves and reliability with an appropriate cost rather than just get a points reduction for the flimsy units we have now.
     
  14. Galen
    Saurus

    Galen Active Member

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    Whilst we're not topping tournaments, our army is not in a bad place. We got a major power increase in 2.0 with the summoning changes, and whilst some other armies benefited as much if not more (looking at you Legions of Nagash) we're no-where near the bottom of the pile. Like I said, it's reasonable that GW would look at the two most popular units in our army and possibly give them a slight points increase. They're looking for feedback, and if all they hear from the playerbase is "Buff my army, nerf the others" then they're probably going to ignore it. I absolutely believe that we need more buffs than nerfs, since whilst we're not in a bad place, we're also not dominating. I would also really like to see some more variety in viable builds available out there, like armies lead by Saurus or Skinks.
     
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  15. Putzfrau
    Carnasaur

    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    Warriors should match knights (90 for 10, maybe 340 or 320 for 40) in points

    Skinks should probably go up to 70. Rippers should go up to 150. EoTG should probably go up to 240. Old blood on carno should come down to match the scar vet (or they both should come down to 220)

    The base level detachments are probably a hair too expensive (10 points or so).

    Kroxigor and chameleon skinks are both drastically too expensive. 80 for both (at least).

    Starseer and Kroak should both come down. 160 for Starseer, 420 for Kroak.

    The troglodon will forever be too expensive.

    I dont think you could do all of it, but that would go a long way towards making the army book more internally balanced.

    Preferably to a point buff/nerf would be a few small tweaks (especially to durability) but GA really never tackles that stuff.
     
  16. Blitzkriyg
    Chameleon Skink

    Blitzkriyg Well-Known Member

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    I think the pricing is fine if we get a spell lore I feel summoning is so strong because what else are we going to do with our casts? If we have the choice of so we summon our cast I think most people that are taking summoning only lists will generate a lot less cp
     
  17. Galen
    Saurus

    Galen Active Member

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    Well in my FLGS we always play with the Realm of Battles rules (which GW actually recommends be used in Matched Play) so my Slann always has 7 extra spells to cast. The thing is, quite often they're not worth casting compared to just saving for summoning. There's no guarantee that if we got a spell lore (which I think would take a new Battletome rather than a General's Handbook but hey, prove me wrong GW) that the same wouldn't apply.
     
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  18. Hugh Wilson
    Skink

    Hugh Wilson Member

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    If I was reading the feedback on the Facebook thread I'd be looking for simple and reasomable requests

    With that I've been thinking about 1 unit to reduce in cost and 1 to increase. It'd make it easily to sift through.

    So...

    Starseer down to 120 or 140 points - its just too expensive for unreliable results that can be got more reliably

    Skinks up to 70 points - possibly the best battleline unit in the game, they are damn cheap
     
  19. Asamu
    Temple Guard

    Asamu Well-Known Member

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    Saurus Oldblood on foot down to 80 - 100 points. Compare the profile with a Sunblood... Despite the tricks that the Oldblood allows for with its command ability + teleporting, it's not even close to worth the same as a Sunblood. The aura isn't worth much due to it only affecting models in within 5", rather than units. 5" is way too small to get anything out of the effect reliably.

    Kroxigors should come down to 140. They're Still a bit too expensive at 160. Compare them with Dragon ogres, which perform similarly offensively, but have +1 wound and the same save with similar mobility at 140 points.

    Cham Skinks down to 90 or 100. 120 is way too high.

    Razordons should probably go up to 50 points. They might be too good at 40. Or salamanders could drop to 35. Razordons are significantly better than Salamanders, and that should be reflected in the cost.

    Warriors to ~90/320 Or even 90/360. They're reasonable in units of 40, but should be cheaper outside of that; the horde bonuses are probably good enough to justify no horde reduction.

    Troglodon down to 140
    Stegadon down to 210 or 200

    Starseer down to ~160. Command points aren't as good as re-rolls. It's still a 2 spell caster.
    Kroak down to ~ 420 ^

    Skinks to 70 is probably okay. It's a bit hard to justify, as the only thing they really have going for them is mobility. They have a worse profile than everything else in their price range when it comes to anything else, but mobility is extremely important. Maybe 70/240 to keep their price the same in units of 40.

    Firelance should come down in points. Thunderquake should go up to 150 or so (Why is it our cheapest normal battalion when it has the strongest effect?).

    No. Compare them to Bestigors, which are 120 points for 10. They get: +1 to save, ignore rend -1, +6 bravery, +1 to hit base (rather than it only working vs hordes), and the shield/bite attacks. They lose: Run + charge at +1 to each, +1 attack on the charge, and 1" of movement.

    Or Greatswords at 140 points for 10: +1 save, ignore rend -1, the bite/shield attacks, and 6 bravery; to be fair, greatswords should probably go down 10 points.

    Or Hammerers at 160 points for 10. +1 save, ignore rend -1, and the bite/shield attacks. To be fair, Hammerers should probably be 140-150 points. They don't compare well with other units in the Dispossessed roster for the points.

    80 points would probably be fair for 5 guard, but definitely not lower than that, and the Eternal Starhost would probably need to go up in points again to compensate due to how strong its bonuses are. 2+ save infantry are tough to break.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
  20. Jason839
    Ripperdactil

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    Fix Bloodclaw for new edition

    Decrease Trog and carno by 20 points

    Decrease Kroxigors by 20 points

    Saurus Knights should have horde bonus.
     
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