7th Ed. Greetings From the Under Empire!

I think many LM here don't realise that the bell/furnace loses movement if the unit pushing it drops below 10.

10 = m5
9 = m4
8 = m3
7 = m2
6 = m1
5 or less = can't move

Lore of fire is a good choice for LM against any skaven lists with either a furnace or abomination in it (otherwise I would possibly go for death).

Against the furnace drop some terradons in front of it and then cast wall of fire. As the plague monks are frenzied and have little armour you should halve the unit in one go. Just so that people don't shout "but they will just save all dispel" I have played a skaven player with 7DD and 5 scrolls for my skaven games and slann+engine can clear the scrolls in two rounds. Plaque of Tepok (extra spell) is good on the engine as if you get comet that is another thing he will want to scroll. AOE spells like comet are brutal against lots of the small bunched up things like weapons teams and plague censor bearers.

I would use terradon rocks on the plague censor bearers or globadiers personally.

 

Oh man spoken like a true vet, we're really getting on the right track now. I personally don't run Plague furnaces for this exact reason. It's very easy to drag around the entire game and keep it out of combat. Iirc, it does have MR2, so it wont be terribly easy just to wall of fire it and call it a day. However, I do believe that the lore of fireis the way to go. It seems like lizardmen suffer from a general lack of heavy, long distance shooting. I think loading up on magic and trying to out-pew the Skaven in the magic phase is a good way to go.

That being said, Skaven are actually quite dominant in the magic phase themselves. It would be important to bring at least three casters. I still think Engines would be an unfortunate points sink vs Skaven in particular. We just have too much effective shooting that ignores armor saves for the engines to be around for very long.

 

I just have to mention since no one did yet...

Blade of Realities leadership test to instantly slay an enemy model with no saves of any kind, is on the models "own un-modified leadership"..

Monstrous mount or not, you don't get the riders leadership, or the generals if he's nearby or anything like that. Since the Rat Ogre also has no Ld, then the multi-part model has no Ld value to use (where as other multi-part models like chariots use a crew members instead). Therefore following the pit of shades on warmachines logic, the screaming bell can indeed be killed in a single hit by the Blade of Realities, until otherwise FAQ'd.

So that could ruin a skaven players day...

 

Our long range damage is our shooting, and it works well with lore of fire and heavens. Heavens has no range restrictions (comet has no sight restriction either). Fire can be "channeled" through the skink priest to gain extra distance. Wall of fire needs no vision to cast, only 24" (from the slann, you can't use channeling).

That is exactly the list that I faced both times, first a seer and 3 level2s with 5 dispel scrolls, then the second time a seer with two level2s and a BSB. I could manage their magic phase with becalming cogitation (one enemy within 24" drops all 6's from their casting), 6DD and two scrolls. I got a lot through as basically he wanted to dispel everything (which was the right decision), and everything I cast has a 73-85% of success (normally casting one spell from the skink, usually comet if i have it as well as fireball, fiery blast and either conflagration, burning head, or wall of fire from the slann). The magic missiles can be cast from the skink priest so have over 24" of effective range for 3D6 S4 hits ~75% of the time. In the games I played I used this to take out the supporting blocks (not slaves obviously), especially the stuff on the flanks which I then rolled. I only aim to use wall of fire on the plague monks on like turn 5, as terradons and skinks can be used to deal with it till then. He had to use lots of scrolls. Wall of fire or the burning head + bane head can also be used to snipe heroes in units (if cast and hit, 50% chance of killing a T4 plague priest - especially handy if he's holding 50 points of items, especially scrolls), which ensures that a scroll has to be used early on for those spells. It is VITAL to keep the skink priest alive (though not game-ending if he dies - mine has on turn 1 or 2 loads of times, mostly due to miscasts) and terrain is the way to do this. My whole army set-up relies on terrain to be fair. I understand that the doomwheel can shoot through terrain etc but with sufficient screening from skinks and terrain it is not an issue most of the time. When playing those armies what I had to think about most was diverting his heavy hitting furnace and breaking his other heavy CR units.

 

Well now, I read the whole thread....and I found it most interesting
I also have stuff to add

First off: Black Death, what would you prioritise (with shooting, and in a lesser degree magic)
when facing anything like:
1x18 Saurii spears
16TG+Slann
2x3 Terries
1x5 SCOR naked
1x6 chameleons
2x10 skink skirmishers
1x10 ranked skinks
2x1 Salamander with extra handler.

I've read the whole thread and you seem to have a lot of priorities Ofcourse, it depends on the army...set-up and all. I understand that a unit in a very threatening position WILL be targeted, be it skinks or a lone slann. But i'm talking generally speaking (btw: if you refuse to shoot at a lone slann.....nevermind)

second:
Saurus Warriors will stand and fight versus virtually anything but heavy cavalry (which IIRC Skaven do not have). So yes, 15 Saurus with spears could ruin any skaven's day. Do NOT underestimate these boys, they throw out loads of S4 attacks, and sitting defensively with T4 and a 4+ save. Top that

Third:
What has changed from the old Storm Banner and the new one?

Fourth:
is there anything skirmishing/360 degree LOS in the Skaven army? More noticably, any skirmishers?
5th:
Are you planning on concentrated shooting, possibly destroying one flank and losing the other? Or are you gonna try and save both?
6th:
Anything non-skirmishing US5+ will be a threat to Skaven. Read: Saurus (whether riding a Co or not), so MSU will cause lots of trouble.
nr. 7:
I'm never worried about panic/other psychology tests with my LM. I do however wonder how the Skaven start to unfold in the later turns (4-6). These last turns is where the LM really shine. With all their close-ranged orientated stuff (Blowpipes, strong but slow Saurri etc.) they get close and personal. Skaven however will be in a tough time in the later turns (i could imagine) after losses, in Ld, and loosing shooting/magic. Our slann will always be casting at his full potential...
8:
Do Skaven have a different miscast table? (a really nasty one like O&G?)
numero 9:
Do you have the models painted
10:
Good luck with this absolute BARRAGE of questions/notes Sorry bout it. But this is all i can think of for now, and probably the whole week

The Hunted

 

This is exactly the main point I wanted to make but forgot about after not being able to think of such a succinct way of putting it.

 

The reason why I prioritize many units with shooting is because of all the different shooting available to me.

I'll toss out there just in case that obviously as the game progresses the order of things to kill will change. If there is anything threatening my Bell or my wizards I would be gunning to take them out.

Secondly, if everything in this list can be bought in 2250 points, then this is starting to look like a group that would make me nervous at the start of the battle. To date I've never fought a LM player without at least one stegadon which is always the obvious choice and gives me a good headstart on turn 1.

Kill First:

2x3 Terradons are top priority. Since magic phase is first, this will be the focus. My goal would be to drop them down to 1 model each. If my magic phase was shut down, I would shoot them with Jezzails.

TG and Slaan would be shot at with my Warp Lightning Cannon. It can kill between 4 and 10 of them with no armor saves allowed.

Poisoned Wind Mortars are a new weapons team that fires like a stone thrower. Any model touched by the small blast template takes a wound on a 5+ with no armor save allowed. These would be firing into Saurus blcoks to soften them up. Template generally hits 9ish models and will kill about 3 per turn. I run 3 of these teams, so ~ 6 Saurus per turn.

Warpfire Thrower would be pointed towards Skinks ~ turn 2 or 3 depending on the table when its in range. Automatic panic checks from any wounds taken.

My Doomwheel would be heading towards you SCOR riders. It fires 3 bolts per turn, and does D3 impact hits on turns it does not charge.



Kill second:

SCOR units will be shot at with Jezzails ~second or third turn depending on what Terradons look like

1 Model Terradon units will be finished off

Make sure the Saurus have 6-8 models left in the unit.

Possibly more cannon fire into slaan unit, depending on ranks left.

Ranked Skinks would take a Poisoned wind mortar or two.

Skirmishing Skinks and chameleons would take the Warp-fire thrower.

Salamanders would take Warp-Lightning Cannon fire before they got into range. I don't know how many wounds they have, but Cannon shots get D6 wounds, no armor saves.




That would be shooting priority I think. Obviously theres a million variables and that thing called close combat. Against a list like this I would hold back my Clanrats to allow for 3-4 turns of shooting. Slave units would be used to charge Skinks i think.

 

Double checked the rule wording for Blade of Realities. You guys win, that item will destroy the bell instantly. Would be a mean trick to play on your friend if you didn't warn him about this before the game starts (still a mean trick to use on your friends regardless!). In tournaments or against assholes, go for it!

 

20 Questions:

1) See above.


2) Again, I don't underestimate Saurus. They rip Skaven to shreds. Therefore, if I haven't decimated them with shooting and magic, no way in hell I'm charging them unless its with Plague Censor Bearers, Poisoned Plague Monks, or flanking Clanrats. Its ok guys, I know the Saurus are good, that's why I shoot them. Basically, if you make it into combat with 15 Saurus with spears, I'm doing something very very wrong.


3) Stormbanner is now 50 points (down from 75) and ends on a 4+ (up from a 3+). Also, the English book was misprinted and does not include the words One Use Only. Copies in other languages do include this text and GW has unofficially said it was a misprint.

Even without long-bearded tactics, because it's now 50 points, you don't have to eat your BSB to use it. You can include it in a unit of Plague Monks. Or, a tactic I plan to use once I get time for a new painting project, you can put it in a minimum unit of 10 Stormvermin. These guys sit on the back of the table edge, and act as a rear-guard for your infantry blocks, able to charge and hold against flyers and skirmishers.


4) Both the Doomwheel and the Hell-Pit Abomination have 360 LoS, but can essentially ignore difficult terrain. They can charge in any direction and will move directly through forests, rivers, etc.

Gutter Runners are the units that used to tunnel in 6th ed. 12 points/model base scouting skirmishers. Not a popular choice, but a viable one.

Plague Censor Bearers are special choices, don't require Plague Monks, and have an additional attack (3 total with frenzy). Expect to see these, expect to fear them.

Otherwise our skirmishers have been completely eliminated. gone are the days of 25 point 5-man skirmishers scattered all through our battle line. Many players are upset by this.


5) Again, things change from game to game. Geeeenerally speaking. I will try to soften the entire enemy battle line, and hope to break all of them. If I am struggling with this, I will fire everything into 1 unit on either flank, and work to wrap my units around the enemy battle line.


6) Not a question... But yes! When Skaven are flanked, we go from leadership 8 to 5 quite a big difference. MSU from the front lines can be effective, but be careful. That also means it will take less shooting to weaken each unit. My BSB in the list at the start of this thread reduces leadership by -1 within 12" and my general reduces leadership -1 when in base contact. Last game against Lizardmen, I ran down a Slaan+TG. (Took me 3 turns, but I did it!)


7) It could go either way. My Skaven tend to win big or lose terribly. I run my blocks in 30, so my leadership bonus is almost always capped. This is more of a Rock,Paper, Scissors situation. If Lizardmen survive that long, yes they'll probably win. Skaven players should be striving to make this not happen.


8) No new miscast table, just 2 wonderful and new sets of magic. (Rules argument: Skaven spells are listed as "Skaven Spells of Ruin" and "Skaven Spells of Plague" are these considered to be Lores of magic that are affected by certain spells? RAW would indicate no, because they are not labelled as such)


9) From the list posted in this thread I have just about everything painted. I have 175 ranked infantry models. 160 of them are painted (15 clanrats to go!). Gutter Runners are painted as are my war machines. My warpfire-thrower is not painted yet. My Warlord mounted on a War-Litter is currently a WIP so is not painted yet either. Everything else is.


10) Keep em coming, I don't mind.

 

Last but not least, here's a link to the 7th ed. army I'm currently building up to:

http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=30766

This is meant to be a very competitive list, but not quite WAAC. The list at the beginning of this thread is extremely tame and used against my flatmate so he doesn't get massacred every game.

 

Is the list at the top (the one that you say you're going to use in a tournament) the same one you're talking about using against your flatmate?

I'm by no means an expert on Skaven, but it just seems like you put a lot of heros in the unit of clanrats with the bell. Does the bell make them unbreakable? If not, it just seems like a unit that will be destroyed too easily.

As far as tactics go, I'm not sure if a lot of the arguments made before are valid for this list. I mean, you always seemed to have a situation where we would say "well, what if I brough X?" and you would reply with "Oh, well I would kill it with Y." I guess I'm just relieved to see that all of the Y's can't be brought in one list.

You don’t seem to have a lot of shooting units, or at least as many as you implied you took in early posts. Certainly no warp cannons or jezzails.

I don't get to look at a lot of Skaven lists and everyone seems to think your list is really good, so I think the LM players here should look at how we can beat it.

First, my 2250 list has two units of terradons in it and a flying skink priest. I guess the storm banner grounds flyers for a few turns and so they would be somewhat of a wash for part of the game. But other than that, I have two units of 10 skink skirmishers and two salamanders who can shoot. Does the storm banner affect flame templates?

After that, the magic phase should be ours. I take a slann and two lvl 2 skinks priests. That is 10 dice versus his 6 (with two dispel scrolls). That combined with the Slann’s +D6 per spell means that we should be able to get several spells off a turn, especially if a wizard dies or the scrolls are used up. But how can we use this to our advantage? I think people might jump on horde-killing spells and lores but what about the Lore of Beasts? I infinitely respect Black Death for seeing the logic of our argument and using the rules in the book to explain why it doesn’t work. However… if it is a “monstrous mount” does that mean The Beast Cowers works on it? If so, that holds up a pretty major unit idefinitely. If it doesn’t, the it will at least work on the Abomination. It can’t move or attack… perfect!

Also, my bound spells should help us gain an advantage. Bear's anger on a JSoD should help annihilate something. That and the blood statuette of spite, if it gets past the scrolls, could stand to take out the Grey Seer (toughness tests until passes or dies.)

All of the other spells in the lore help us move faster (aka, launches the CoC into units) or pumps up the Scar vets with Bears Anger. The hunter’s spear would be extremely effective as a strength 6 bolt thrower with no saves allowed. This would score several casualties on the 6 rank units of skaven. Or on the rare choices (Doomwheel and Abomination). Does the Doomwheel count as a chariot (the beast cowers works there too).

If we use a lot of bound spells, then we can overcome the magical defense of this army.
I use 1 unit of temple guard and 2 units of 15 saurus. This should be enough to at least hold the line until we can flank around the sides.

To be fair, I’ll post my own list so that Black Death can point out his strengths against one of our 2250 lists.

2248 Pts - Lizardmen Roster

Lord
1 Slann Mage-Priest (Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Cupped Hands of the Old Ones
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Dispel Scroll
1 War Banner
1 Focus of Mystery
1 The Becalming Cogitation
1 The Focused Rumination

Special
16 Temple Guard (Musician; Standard Bearer)

Heros
1 Skink Priest (Level 2 Upgrade)
1 Cloak of Feathers

1 Skink Priest (Level 2 Upgrade)
1 Blood Statuette of Spite

1 Saurus Scar-Veteran (Light Armour; Shield)
1 Charm of the Jaguar Warrior

Troops
10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers

15 Saurus Warriors (Musician; Standard Bearer; Spear)

15 Saurus Warriors (Musician; Standard Bearer; Spear)

Special
3 Terradon Rider

3 Terradon Rider

5 Cold One Cavalry

Rare
1 Salamander Hunting Pack
3 Skink Handlers

1 Salamander Hunting Pack
3 Skink Handlers

 

Oh, here is the list that I talked about in my post. Black Death, if this isn't the list you meant please let us know.


Lords

Grey Seer: Screaming Bell, Shadow Magic Trinket, Skalm, Portants of Doom


Heroes

Warlock Engineer lvl2: Warp Energy Condenser, Doom Rocket

Warlock Engineer lvl2: Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll

Chieftan: Underempire Banner, Shield


Core

Clanrats x30: mus, standard, Grey Seer, Chieftan

Clanrats x30: mus, standard, Warpfire Thrower, Warlock Engineer

Clanrats x30: mus, standard, Warlock Engineer

Stormvermin x10: standard, Stormbanner

Slaves x21

Slaves x21

Slaves x20

Giant Rats: 1,5

Giant Rats: 1,5


Special

Plague Censer Bearers x7


Rare

Hell Pit Abomination: Warpstone Spikes

Doomwheel

 

First I must apologize for giving mixed messages. All of the Ys mentioned to counter Lizardmen tactics CAN be put into one list and in 6th ed. I would. The list I posted is a prototype 7th ed. build for competitive play. Looking back this made no sense to show to all of you, but oh well. The Hell Pit Abomination can be dropped for all of the following: Warp Lightning Cannon, 6 Jezzails, 1 Poisoned Wind Mortar. Some additional points shuffling would be needed, but no major changes.


The new Screaming Bell does make the unit Unbreakable, and conveys MR2 as well as a 4+ ward save. The banner the chieftan holds deals 2D6 str 2 hits before every round of combat begins. Its alot of heroes in one unit, but I consider it reasonably safe.

In regards to shooting, again these statements were based on 6 ed. tactics. I will apologize a second time. The lack of shooting is a direct result of exploiting the Stormbanner. It grounds all flying troops, and gives a -2 penalty to shooting across the battlefield. In addition, models that don't use BS to shoot, may only fire ona roll of 4+ (this would affect salamanders). Because this particular item affects Skaven shooting as well, tactically is better to build the list this way. The Stormbanner can be activated at the start of any turn. Every following turn, it will end on a roll of 4+ However, since the One Use Only was left out, this can be reactivated as many times as you wish, at the start of any turn.

Now, in regards to Lore of Beasts there are a few things I'll need help with clarifying. I do not know what the precise definition of a monster is. BRB page 71 Unit Strength chart would indicate that both the Doomwheel and the Hell-Pit Abomination are monsters because of their base size and wounds. Theres no reason why the Lore of Beasts would not affect this unit. However, I would argue that The Beast Cowers does not affect the Screaming Bell:

The first paragraph of text under the Screaming Bell's rules is as follows: "The Screaming Bell is a special kind of mount for a Grey Seer. It is treated as a single model with combined characteristics for the Screaming Bell and Rat Ogre." (Skaven Army Book page 42) RAW, it clearly states that it is a "special kind of mount" which overrides the Monstrous Mount definition. It's not a monstrous mount... its a special one! (our entire army book is filled with crap like this)

Not to be cheesy, but rational thinking supports this claim as well. The Screaming Bell has no movement value, therefore even if you argue that the Rat Ogre that rings the bell is the one cowering, the Clanrats will still push the bell as normal. Under the rule that dictates how the bell is moved, it states "The unit the Screaming Bell has joined marches, charges, and pursues normally so long as it has at least 10 models..." Therefore, this would also override the effects of the spell, as it states that the unit of clanrats will move as they normally would, essentially ignoring the bells existence (or pushing it along with them).

I would let my Seer eat the blood statue. He has T4 and a 4+ ward save, chances are he wont take a wound at all.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that JSoD stands for Jaguar Saurus of Doom. This combination COULD potentially be useful, but not as amazing as you would initially think. 7 attacks at Strength 7 is very good, however you'll be hitting on 3+ mostly, so lets assume you have 4 hits to work with:
-Hitting a Hell Pit Abomination you'll need 2+ so assume you wound 4 times, he has 6 wounds and a 4+ regen save. Attacks back: 3d6 Str6 hits (average result)
-Doomwheel will do D3 Str 6 impact hits before the combat, and has T6 so you'll be wounding on 3s. Assume 3 wounds from the saurus, 1 from the Doomwheel. You'll probably win the combat but get shot with warp-lightning next round as the Doomwheel will flee with 3d6.
-Screaming Bell unit: A gamble or a sacrifice. I would probably challenge with my Chieftan to be on the safe side. Assuming 4 wounds, you'll lose the combat by 1 because of CR and get run down. Assuming 4 wounds on the Grey Seer, 4+ ward save will cover half, Skalm will fix him up for next turn.


Against the list posted I would strive to hit your Slann head on with my Hell Pit Abomination, with MR1 it will be easy to dispel Beast Cowers. Doomwheel would hunt down Terradons (360 charge arc) if they got through, or terror-bomb skinks.

Magic defense we have 6 dice, 2 scrolls, but also the Bell with MR2 and the HPA with MR1.
I would be most inclined to save dice for stopping The Wolf Hunts and The Beast Cowers. In addition, I will be treaking this list to include a +1 dispel staff, something I was meaning to do anyway but never bothered to update my post.


One other possible combination to watch out for in other lists:
-Portents of Verminous Doom (enemy units in base contact -1Ld)
-Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat (enemy units within 12" of BSB -1 Ld)

Slaan takes a break test at Stubborn 7!

 

For anyone with a huge excess of extra time, or for rules lawyers that want to Ctrl+F specific questions, here's a FAQ compilation of all the ambiguous bullshit in the new Skaven book.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65254

 

At the risk of giving evil advise, is there any way you can take Lore of Death (even though Skaven magic is evil, bear with me)? Doom and Darkness added to this strategy would be LD 4!

 

Skaven only have access to their 2 unique magic lists.

 

I just picked up a copy of the Skaven army book today, once I have a good read through I'll probably have a number of questions for you.
The parts I have read so far include some pretty well written fluff.

 

Has any1 else noticed that saurus can step on nearly everything in their way? If he uses skink screening and defends his flanks youll have a hard time cracking his saurus blocks.

...God i hate artillery.
Your asking how to beat the least advanced race in the warhmmer world with the most advanced.
Lizardmen arnt 2 good with shooting if u havent noticed; so if u can destroy any line of defence, whether its the flank or screen, youll have plenty of space do dig in to the fairly unprotected bulk of the army.