8th Ed. Guardians and scar vets

[Itzamuddiz]

Hey guys this could be a stupid question but hey here goes. I have been trying 4 scar vets in the front rank of a temple guard unit with the slann. Under the guardian special rule if 4 or less models with the guardian rule are in the front rank the slann makes way to the front. How would this work with the scar vets ?

Interested to see others thoughts

 

[hdctambien]

if you fill your front rank (of any unit) with characters & command group, then any additional characters go into the second rank.

You could even run a regular Saurus unit with full command (Champ, Standard, Musician) and 2 Scar Vets making up your front rank, and if your Slann joined that unit you could put him in the 2nd rank, just like with Temple Guard. However, once your Scar Vets start dying, the Slann will have to make way to the front of this unit.

I'm not sure what happens when you have Full Command + 1 Scar Vet + 1 regular Saurus. Since there isn't enough room for the Slann to fit in the front rank, I think he would still go in the 2nd rank until there are 2 regular Saurus in the front rank for him to displace.

With the Temple Guard then Slann can be in the 2nd rank if your front rank looks like this:

SMCVV

(S = standard, M = musician, C = champion, V = ScarVet)

But, if the Champion and one Scar Vet die then you would have:

SMVTT

And only 4 of the front rank would be Temple Guard, and 2 of them would be regular Temple Guard which would have to be filled in by the Slann... which would suck, because even after the last Scar Vet dies and you could have a front rank of 5 Temple Guard, you won't be able to move your Slann out of base-to-base with the opponent during a combat.

If, however, the Champion lives and both Scar Vets die, then you would end up with:

SMCTT

Which would be 5 Temple Guard so your Slann could continue to live happily in the 2nd rank.

So, if you're running Scar Vets in your TG unit ... keep your Champion alive!

 

[Itzamuddiz]

If the units front rank is EVER reduced to four or fewer models WITH ThE GUARDIANS special rule, the Mage priest must IMMEDIATELY move to the front rank , displacing rank and file models if necessary.

Scar vets do not have guardians special rule

I can see arguments both ways

The command group and scar vets are not rank and file so can't be displaced, that's my theory
On the basis of this theory could I run the temple guard 3 wide, with scar vets in front, cmd models in the second with slann in the third?

 

[hdctambien]

On the basis of this theory could I run the temple guard 3 wide, with scar vets in front, cmd models in the second with slann in the third?

Well, the command models would have to be the front rank, followed by your scar vets, then the Slann and Temple Guard would start to fill out the 3rd+ ranks.

It's not a theory, it's the rules.

BRB Page 91: Position in the Unit:

When characters join a unit, they are placed in the front rank. Rank-and-file models, except for the command group that must remain in the front rank, are moved to the back ranks to make room for the characters. If there is no more room in the front rank, some characters will have to go in the second rank.

Now, the exact wording of the Guardians rule is not exactly written clearly (surprise, surprise) but it still doesn't change how multiple Characters are placed in a unit:

... must immediately move to the front rank (displacing rank and file models if necessary)

If there are not 2 Rank and File models for the Slann to displace, then you cannot place him in the front rank without reforming the entire unit. Note: the command group must always be in the front rank, so they do not count as displacable rank-and-file troops.

 

[Itzamuddiz]

I'm just playing antagonist, the rules here for guardian are not done very well at alll, I agree.
Characters make way in combat putting the command group in the second rank. Now there are no guardians in the front rank. Also it may be argued as it has by some for the pred fighter that the army rules trump the BRB.
Like I said I'm playing antagonist so I know when I use this I'm not going to get the rules lawyer bitching for 20 mins for the rules as written argument
I think the key phrase was displacing rank and file models, I just would like to hear others interpretations.

 

[twistedmagpie]

I didn't know that you could push the command group to the second rank, I thought they had to always be in the front rank.

 

[godswearhats]

Command group must be in front at all times, except when in close combat. Once you're in close combat, the "Make Way!" rules take over.

So, to answer the original poster's question. I assume you have a 5-wide unit of Temple Guard with full command, 4 Scar-vets and a Slann. When not in close combat, the FC MUST be in the front rank. 2 of your Scar-vets MUST be in the front rank.

Once you get to close combat, your other two Scar-vets can "Make Way!" to the front rank, displacing two models from the command group (presumably mus + std). Once combat is done, the command group returns to the front rank. The only confusing part comes when some of your Scar-vets die. At that point there is room for the Slann in the front rank and there are not 5 TG in that rank.

The spirit of the rule is obviously meant to imply that the Slann can only be protected for as long as there at least 5 Temple Guard in the unit, thus preventing you from having ranks two wide in order to protect your Slann. The wording of the rule doesn't lend itself to that. For friendly play it shouldn't be an issue. At a tournament, just clarify with the TO before submitting your list, and then refer any rules lawyer players to the TO.

Hope this helps,
~gwh