GW News: SKAVEN VICTORY! #NewAoS

Looks like the launch will be the Army Box approach rather than the boxed game approach, which is fine, especially for those who want one army but not the other.

It looks like there are going to be 93 models in that box... I dread to think how much NeW Gw will price it for.

You've got to admit though, that box art is excellent (even with the ill-fitting Warmaster-nostalgic Bone Dragon), and the sight of the rulebook plus all three templates and the plastic range rulers is just beautiful. If they ever release one of these boxes for Beastmen down the line I would be particularly tempted to pick one up to give a big boost to my small herd and grab my TOW rulebook.

I'm sure there must be more Tomb King models on the way, I think GW said as much not long ago (either in a Warhammer Community article or a Facebook post), it just seems to be that (stupidly) they won't be revamped versions of the old 6th Edition plastics. This is to be the case with Bretonnians as well (even if their 6th Edition plastics have aged better), so obviously at the moment GW just wanted to focus on releasing new stuff. Certainly from the rumours that first spread horrifying word of the Bone Dragon there were mentioned at least one new Tomb King rank-and-file unit as per Bretonnians.

I'm hoping perhaps they'll be part of the release that will come along if an updated army book for Tomb Kings makes an appearance somewhere down the line, but it is concerning, especially given that damned Vampire Counts have been given not one but two newer Skeleton sets post 6th Edition.

I mean, if such a boring and niche setting as the Horus Heresy can do well as a specialist game, I would have thought that a setting with so much more variety in factions (even with the main-focus faction count reduced to 9), one that has been around for significantly longer, one whose return has been long-awaited by fans around the world and one backed up by a rightly-celebrated PC Game franchise would fare equally well, if not better.

 

Neat box, I'm curious what kinda boxes we'll see for other stuff.

I mean, let's be honest, if it was filled with new/updated models there'd be plenty of people complaining GW is moving too fast and that the updated models don't have the right aesthetic.

Kind of an inherent downside in reviving an older game. Especially an older game that people are still playing and can easily compare old models/rules with the new stuff. If they put in too much new stuff then the nostalgia-factor would immeadiatly backfire.

I'm repeating myself, but let's give it one final try.

The issue isn't that one side's magic is better. The issue is that with magic you are left in constant direct confrontation with an opponent who is better in every (magical) aspect. He casts more spells, better spells, and more consistently. Every single meaningful (magic) interaction that level 2 wizard has is against this level 4. and thus the level 2 is consistently at a major disadvantage. This massive and consistent disadvantage is largely going to dictate your level 2's actions. Your success will be more dependent on luck & your opponent making mistakes, than it will be on you playing well because no matter what you do, the level 4 wizard will always have his superiour bonusses. Outplaying a "+2 to diceroll" isn't really an option, nor is "I have more spellcasts than you" nor is "my spell is literally better than yours". The best the level 2 wizard can really hope for is to be a metaphorical speedbump that slows down the level 4's rush to (magical) victory.

This is lame.

In contrast, let's take the skink v.s. Khalida example you gave. Sure, the Khalida unit is better, but the skink isn't limited to only shooting at the Khalida unit. It can go shoot something else, thus avoiding the direct confrontation. Additionally even if the Skink and Khalida unit enter a direct confrontation the Khalida unit doesn't get to say "no you can't shoot, I stop you" in the same way a wizard can say "no you can't cast, I unbind it" (or alternativly, "no you can't unbind, I have a massive bonus to my casting"). These two factors combined allow the skinks* to be more than a mere speedbump for the Khalida unit to shoot its way through.

Which is why shooting (& melee) don't have this same problem.

*Minor caveat, I am assuming the skinks have a good enough statline to achieve something meaningfull and aren't like the MSU skinks in AoS which are literally just speedbumps.

 

Let's summarize what (I think) we largely agree on:

• a level 4 wizard costs more points than a level 2 wizard
• both offensively and defensively, a level 4 wizard will outperform a level 2 wizard in the magic phase
• controlling for other factors and assuming average dice rolls, offensively, a level 2 wizard should usually be able to get one spell through against a level 4 wizard [as per the uncontested mathematical proof provided earlier]
• a level 2 wizard should be able to mitigate some of the level 4 wizard's magic phase, although he will be on the losing end of the exchange. You use slightly different wording ("The best the level 2 wizard can really hope for is to be a metaphorical speedbump that slows down the level 4's rush to (magical) victory."), but it's still close enough to an agreement. Surely you would not contest that on average a level 4 would have a better magic phase against an opponent with no wizards than against an opponent with a level 2 wizard.

Now what we disagree on:
[Correct me if I misrepresent your stance.] You believe that the magic system is flawed because the level 2 wizard cannot avoid the magical interaction with the level 4 wizard, and the consequent magical dual will (under average mathematical conditions / dice rolling) always favour the level 4 wizard.

Conversely, I believe that the magic system is perfectly fine due to the fact that the level 4 wizard costs more points and therefore should rightly dominate the magic phase against the level 2 wizard. Additionally, I like the fact that duals between opposing wizards are unavoidable. Not every phase should play out the same way. I appreciate the variation of the magic phase and view it as a feature, not a bug.

Our two stances are diametrically opposed and no amount of discussion will change that. That's pretty much that.


However, even if we were to go with your position (which I would never do as I am vehemently opposed to it) , the magic system is still not flawed because of one very simple fact...

If you want a competitive magic phase against your opponent's level 4 wizard, simply take a level 4 wizard yourself. Every single race, with the notable exception of the vanilla Dwarfs, has access to a level 4 wizard. If you don't want the uphill battle of a level 2 versus a level 4, it is entirely avoidable. It only occurs if you choose to build your list that way, your level 4 wizard is killed midgame or you play Dwarfs (in which case you knew what you were getting into). Simple!

This is nothing more than your personal opinion. I think AoS is lame, but you still seem to like it. I guess we're lucky that we can each play the game we enjoy and avoid the game we feel is lame.

Yes and no. If the skink unit finds its way within 24" of the Khalida-star (and in the front arc) it is vaporized in one turn if the Khalida player wishes it so. Keep in mind that 24" represents a very sizeable area on the battlefield.

Also, the Skink unit has no chance of "dispelling" the opposing unit's shooting. Simply declare the target and roll the dice. You'd have to engage the shooting unit in combat to stop it from shooting, but the Skinks would lose that battle immediately.

Skink skirmishers are a staple unit in the Lizardmen army. They are one of the very best chaff/harassing units in the entire game. Sometimes they are speedbumps, but very useful and critical speedbumps that no Lizardmen army should go without!

 

I would not put it past GW.

The new Bone Dragon model will definitely drive up the price. GW loves to overprice its centerpiece models.

I can definitely see people who have been trying to build a TK army via Ebay over the last few years jumping on this box set. However, existing TK players with pre-existing armies might hesitate to double up on decades old models. Also, new players might be put off by the dated models that make up the nearly all of the box set.

If the cost is really expensive, I can see this box floundering in terms of sales.

It's a nice enough box.

It doesn't change the fact that it's ancient old models being repackaged in a shiny new box!

I wonder if the rulebook will be available separately at launch. Will the main rules be available as a free pdf like in AoS? I know that the lesser factions of the game will receive free pdf rules, but I can't recall any mention of the main rules.

Yeah... but Space Marines are GW's all-time best sellers. I think Space Marines alone were outselling the entirety of Warhammer Fantasy at one point.

An interesting thought. I could see that happening if they deviated from the style and feel of the old game, but these models are extraordinarily old at this point. I think updated models that fitted with the aesthetics of the 8th edition Tomb Kings would be welcomed by the player base (both old and new).

 

Importantly, the fact that as a consequence of losing the magical duels the level 2 wizard doesn't get to do much of anything due to the fact that magic uniquely has a unbind mechanic.

In contrast heroes that rely on stuff like prayers, command abilities, and other nonsense, which can't get cancelled by an unbind mechanic don't face the same problem, even when they're facing an uphill battle against a superiour opponent.

And that's exactly the issue. The only real option to make the magic phase interesting to have both sides show up with an equivalent amount of magic.
Which undercuts the system as a whole outside of equivalent match-ups it'll constantly be a one-sided affair. Which begs the question; what exactly is the point of that level 2 when you're facing a level 4? Is that one spell a game it unbinds really so crucial to your strategy? Or are you simply taking him because there's nothing better to spend your left-over points on, and who knows, maybe you get lucky and that one spell you unbind ends up being a gamechanger?

I think the only models i haven't seen people complain about is the new bretonnian stuff. But everything else I've seen complaints along the lines of "this is too AoS and doesn't fit with WHF"

 

So... you're backtracking . You're falling back to your ill-informed (unsupported) stance that a level 2 doesn't get to do much of anything even though it has been definitively proven otherwise. Their offensive impact has already been demonstrated mathematically. Unless you can find an error/limitation in the math-hammer provided, your viewpoint in null and void. Opinion < Fact. Defensively, it is undoubtably that a level 4 casting against a defending level 2 (casting advantage of 2+) is going to be less effective (on average) than the same level four casting against an army with no defending wizards at all (casting advantage of 4+).

At the end of the day you don't really know anything about this game. You didn't even know how good skinks were (basic day one knowledge for any Lizardmen player). Fair enough, you play a completely different (simpler) game, but why then are you arguing so confidently on that which you know so little of?

No... that's the only way for the magic phase to be interesting for you, personally. While you are entitled to that opinion, it does not constitute some sort of universal truth. Other people can enjoy an interesting magic phase despite the the presence of an imbalance of power (especially with the understanding that they will enjoy a subsequent positive imbalance of power in some other phase of the game because of the points they diverted from magic). People with a deeper understanding of how the game works can utilize a level 2 properly. At the end of the day though, even you still have an easily accessible option to enjoy a balanced magic phase, it's your choice to take it or not.

I've just gone through several thread pages explaining this to you. No point in repeating it again.

And you're basing this one dispel per game on what? Where is your supporting evidence to back up your claim?

A level 2 still represents enough of a points investment that he isn't a left over points filler. We're not talking about dropping a 10 point magic item on a character to round out an army's points total. For his points cost, you have many alternate options to invest in. He is not in the range of throw away points.

Level 2 wizards are regularly fielded because people obviously find reason to do so. There are a multitude of reasons for their inclusion, depending on the army list and battlefield strategy, but those reasons rarely have anything to do with filling out the last few points of a roster.

 

Let's say the level 4 is casting with 2 dice vs. the level 2 unbinding with 1. You're going to unbind 4 out of 216 spells, so about 2%.
Sure, it's better than nothing, but it isn't exactly impressive. Unless your opponent casts an absurd amount of spells you'll regularly go multiple games without succesfully unbinding.

Which is the point. You get a unit, which on a regular basis will fail to do one of its core tasks. Not because you made a mistake, or your opponent played better. But simply because your opponent has better stats. That sucks.

And yeah, when the level 2 wizard is attacking the casting bonus isn't as much of a problem due to the fact that the attacker has a very significant advantage with his extra dice. It brings its own (potential) issues, but at least it ensures the level 2 wizard gets to cast with reasonable reliability, which is indeed a positive for the WHF magic system compared to say AoS, where the level 2 wizard (or well, it's equivalent) struggles both offensivly and defensivly.

I mean, have fun building an interesting strategy around a 2% successrate....

And yeah, I'm sure people still use them. Not arguing against that. The game is complex enough that there's bound to be some potential use somewhere.
Have them carry a special item, utilize their non spell-casting related abilities, etc. Fortunatly for level 2 wizards they get to do (slightly) more than attempt to just cast and unbind the occasional spell. Though it is important to notice that this pushes the focus away from their spell-casting, which is their supposed core-functionality.

I'm simply saying that a mechanic, like magic in WHF/AoS/TOW/etc.. where you have:

• Only a few characters/units on each side are relevant for the mechanic
  
• The units are naturally drawn into direct conflict with their counterpart for most of the game. This direct conflict is the bulk of the mechanic
  
• The direct conflict revolves around a straight forward roll-off

Suffers significantly when you give one side inherent significant bonusses to their rolls.
If on top of those bonusses to the roll-off that side also gets access to more and better abilities for said mechanic, then the mechanic suffers significantly as it shifts far too much into the favour of the dominating side. Also, it risks creating situations where there is only 1 correct response, which generally sucks. For example if the only practical ways to compete with a level 4 is to either a) bring a level 4, or b) completly ignore magic for that game (unless you get lucky and kill him early on), that kinda sucks as it limits playstyles.

That is all.

 

You're only proving my point. I understand that AoS is your game, but since that's the case, maybe you shouldn't try to argue WHFB mechanics when you know nothing about the topic. Normally I wouldn't nitpick such a small point but ... since you're trying to lecture me about a game you don't even know how to play, there is no "unbinding" in WHFB 8th edition. This isn't AoS, you don't unbind, you dispel.

You're so sure of yourself, but at the same time you can't even get the basic terminology correct.

This isn't meant as an insult against you. I don't play AoS. I know very little about the game. I am not in a position where I can debate the finer points of the game. I can make gross level observations and comparisons with WHFB, but I do not have the requisite background knowledge to explore and debate the intricacies of the game's mechanics.

The only way a magic phase starts with that scenario is in the case of a winds of magic roll of 1 & 1. The odds of that are 1 in 36, (3%). In such a rare scenario, the level 4 is overwhelmingly favored to get a single low to mid casting value spell off, but nothing else. That should be considered a good magic phase for the player defending with the level 2.

You've pulled these numbers out of nowhere and then did some mathhammer on those fictious numbers. The old computing phrase "garbage in, garbage out" applies here. This "data" is absolutely worthless and is in no way reflective of the actual dispel rate a level 2 wizard would expect (under average dice rolls) against a level 4 caster.

Once again, your demonstrating that you have no knowledge of how 8th edition magic is played.

I will admit, if the level 4 casting wizard throws all of his dice at a single spell, it is unlikely that the level 2 will be able to dispel it. However, that means that the level 4 wizard is only casting a single spell that phase, which isn't exactly a dominate magic phase. Even a level 2 has a good chance of slipping a single spell past a defending level 4 wizard using that tactic.

In nearly every real game scenario, the level 4 player will want to slip multiple spells through. This means that he has to split and allocate his dice across multiple castings. It is here were the defending level 2 wizard must decide which spells to focus on and how many dispel dice to invest. The level 2 can't dispel them all, but with proper strategy he should be able to snipe 1 or 2. Remember, in 8th edition, spells are not cast on a fixed number of dice like in AoS (to be fair, I'm not even sure if AoS still uses that simplistic system). When casting a spell you can choose to try to cast it with anywhere from 1 to 6 power dice (so long as you have sufficient dice in your power pool) and when dispelling you can allocate any and all dice the you have available in your dispel dice pool.

As an example, say you're conducting your magic phase with your level 4 wizard and you've rolled a 2 & 4 for your winds of magic. You now have 6 power dice to my 4 dispel dice...

If you throw all 6 at a single spell, unless you are unlucky you will likely get it through. But that's it. Unless that spell is amazingly devastating, I'd be happy as the defending player. Especially as you risked a miscast on your very expensive level 4.

On the other hand, if there are 2 spells you really want to cast, what do you do? You'll get one through, but under average conditions, I'll dispel the second one. You could allocate 3 dice to each of the two spells, but I'd be slightly favoured to dispel either one of those two casts with my 4 dispel dice. Alternatively you might allocate 4 dice towards the spell you want more. As the dispeller I can see what you rolled to cast the spell and decide if I want to try to dispel it. If you rolled average - high, then it is risky for me to dispel. I can either take to risk if I deem it important enough, our save my 4 dice and easily dispel your second spell as you only have 2 power dice remaining. Obviously these are just a couple of simple scenarios. The possible permutations are extremely large, and that's where the player's skill comes in. The skill involves reading the battlefield, the power/dispel pools, the spells available to the other player and the odds of dispelling on different combinations of dispel dice. It is involved, and complex.

Once again, this is a bullshit number. It isn't real. If you are dispelling at a success rate of only 2%, you either don't know how to play the game at all or the dice gods hate you with an undying passion.

It's not a straight forward roll-off for the reasons I mentioned above. We're not dealing with the simplistic 2d6 casting system of AoS (which is the reason I hate AoS magic). The WHFB magic phase is far more nuanced and anything but straight forward.

The ways to tackle an opposing level 4 is to:

• fight fire with fire and take a level 4 yourself
• mitigate some of his magic with a level 1 or 2
• concede the magic phase and focus on the other phases with the points saved

The point of Warhammer is not to win the magic phase, but to win the game. A solid magic phase can help you win the game, but so too can any of the other phases. Players have a multitude of playstyles and strategies available to them.

 

None of that adresses the actual point I tried to make.
And given that we've been at this for 4 or 5 pages or something, I give up.

 

I'm a little late to the reveal.

I agree that TK appears to be getting the short end of the range refresh compared to Brets. Pity. I was expecting a bigger reveal. I assume TK will likely be getting more models in the future, but models in hand are always better than models that might be. I was interested to see GW's take on updated (plastic) TK skeletons or slightly more dynamic chariots/horses. As I posted earlier, I'm not necessarily disappointed in the TK dragon, just not blow away by it. So, I'm a bit "ho-hum" on this TK box from a model perspective.

 

The point you were trying to make was slain pages ago.

I am left to wonder though, as an AoS guy, have you ever even played a game of WHFB (or even read the rules in full)?

And with that my watch has ended. Good day to you sir.

 

A little!

Better late than never.

Not an ideal way to launch a new game. Both the TK and Bretonnia boxes should have been stacked with new models. Get people excited for the big new game.

 

Ha ha ha. Indeed. But, in my defense, there were 15 pages of magic/rules debate between you and @Canas, and not about the boxset.

 

Hmmm... actually... that's a pretty solid defense.

 

TOW army composition:
https://www.warhammer-community.com...manack-mustering-the-grand-army-of-bretonnia/

 

Not a fan of the sculpt.



https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/18/the-fang-of-nulahmia-meet-neferatas-chief-lieutenant/

 

Wow that's an interesting state line for Brettonian Dukes. I wonder how ridiculous the stats for Chaos Lords will be? Also, mercenaries?!

 

I like the snake, that could be a mighty expensive jungle swarm

 

There's no way that's supposed to be a rightful successor to Lahmian vampires. If not for the promotional material featuring her with Soulblight units, I would have thought she was a new Slaaneshi hero.

Not bad conversion fodder though.

 

Thats the point. If her proportions and structure seem off, the design is working. She's an unnatural creature and a vampire.

I do like the juxtaposition of vampire face and hip dips.

The trend of big hats in death continues.

She also looks ripe for a slanneshi lord conversion.