8th Ed. Horde Rule Help

[fatCobra]

Hello,

Can anyone post the description / explanation

1. Of the Horde Rule for me . My friend and I share a copy of the WHFB 8th Ed Rule Book, and he has it for the next three days, and i can barely remember what the Horde Rule really does (all i can remember is that it it is something like allowing the ranks behind the 1st attack too).

Also does fielding a "Horde" (25-30 blocks of units) Lizardmen Army a good strat

2. If i field a unit of 24 skinks + 3 Krox in a block 6 x 6.
If my opponent charges me and I declared a reaction of Stand and Shoot. Will i be able to throw all 24 Javalins from my Skinks even if the Huge Krox will from a model stand point block my 4 - 6 rows or will i only be able to Shoot with my front rank of 6 skinks?

Also how does the Horde Rule apply to the Skink Cohort + Krox


Tnx

 

[Guardian of Hexoatl]

Any unit that is at least 10 models wide is counted as being a horde. Warriors in a horde can make supporting attacks from the third rank, not just from the second.
This represents the crush of bodies driving yet more warriors into striking distance, as well as the back ranks surging forwards to assail the unengaged enemy warriors. If the unit drops below the minimum frontage it ceases to be a horde and loses the ability to make these extra supporting attacks.

There you go Straight from my rulebook lol Hope this helps!

 

[Caneghem]

Horde formation just lets you attack from the third rank, so really it isn't worth doing with skinks or saurus. What you gain isn't worth the cost for lizardmen in my opinion, although some will disagree with me I am sure.

The 24/3 skrox unit is a nice unit, but since the entire second and third ranks are taken up by kroxigors, only the front rank of skinks will be able to stand and shoot with their javelins (6 shots).

The horde rule for skrox doesn't work that well, since the krox, who take up space in the second and third ranks, can fight anyway. If you put any kroxigors behind the second and third rank kroxigors, they would take up the fourth and fifth ranks and so wouldn't be able to fight.

The good thing about the skrox unit is that the enemy can't attack the kroxigors until all the skinks are taken out, so you will always get your kroxigor attacks. Use this to wear down big monsters and things, but don't treat the skrox like a straight up infantry unit. Use their speed to your advantage.

 

[mixer86]

The unit must be 10 wide so your 6 wide skrox unit would be classed as horde anyway. Horde allows the third rank to attack but if you have spearman saurus, they would be able to attack from the fourth rank as well. But the unit must be 10 wide to be a horde.

Yours Aye

Mixer

 

[Arli]

If you put any kroxigors behind the second and third rank kroxigors, they would take up the fourth and fifth ranks and so wouldn't be able to fight.

If you use a horde (10 wide) with 4 Krox groupped together 2x2, due to monstrous infantray rules, they are the 2nd and 3rd rank, all the krox would get their supporting attacks. I have used that formation in a few games and it works really well to get the krox into combat with smaller facing units.

 

[MI_Tiger]

If you put any kroxigors behind the second and third rank kroxigors, they would take up the fourth and fifth ranks and so wouldn't be able to fight.

If you use a horde (10 wide) with 4 Krox groupped together 2x2, due to monstrous infantray rules, they are the 2nd and 3rd rank, all the krox would get their supporting attacks. I have used that formation in a few games and it works really well to get the krox into combat with smaller facing units.

I don't think that is how it works. Since the basic unit is Skinks, I think a rank is defined as being 20mm deep. So your first 2 Krox are in second and third ranks. Your second 2 Krox are in the 4th and 5th ranks so would not be able to attack, even with horde rules.

The way you describe it, your unit would have a different number of ranks for each file.

 

[Coatl]

correct. if you have skinks in the same rank as krox, you go off of the skinks bases size

s s s s s s s s s s
s s k k k k s s s s
s s k k k k s s s s
s s s s s s s s s s

in the above example occupy ranks 2 and 3. this formation has 4 ranks.

s s s s s s s s s s
k k k k k k k k k k
k k k k k k k k k k
k k k k k k k k k k
k k k k k k k k k k
s s s s s s s s s s

however in the above example, its alot less clear (plus i understand im missing a number of skinks, not the point). how many ranks is this unit? 6 ranks because you count the krox foot print as the same as 2x2 skinks or 4 because you count the krox as their own individual rank? ive been playing this as 4 ranks. seems less complicated and i believe its accurate considering you shouldn't be able to count 1 model as "representing" 4 in this scenario. (the full unit would have 10+ ranks anyway)

 

[Cravenus]

You're putting way too much over thought into this, the easiest way for you to find out who gets to fight is to start at the front, file by file, and count 3 models back, not from the side and do the same.

Thus, a squad composed of 40 skinks 10 wide, and 5 krox 3X2(missing 1) would get, all 15 krox attacks,(supporting attacks and horde bonus rank) and 18 skink attacks(10 in front, and 8 on the sides) assuming you don't just line krox up from side to side(which I don't think you can do but I don't have my AB on me atm so).

 

[Arli]

You're putting way too much over thought into this, the easiest way for you to find out who gets to fight is to start at the front, file by file, and count 3 models back, not from the side and do the same.

Thus, a squad composed of 40 skinks 10 wide, and 5 krox 3X2(missing 1) would get, all 15 krox attacks,(supporting attacks and horde bonus rank) and 18 skink attacks(10 in front, and 8 on the sides) assuming you don't just line krox up from side to side(which I don't think you can do but I don't have my AB on me atm so).

Agreed!

 

[MI_Tiger]

You're putting way too much over thought into this, the easiest way for you to find out who gets to fight is to start at the front, file by file, and count 3 models back, not from the side and do the same.

Thus, a squad composed of 40 skinks 10 wide, and 5 krox 3X2(missing 1) would get, all 15 krox attacks,(supporting attacks and horde bonus rank) and 18 skink attacks(10 in front, and 8 on the sides) assuming you don't just line krox up from side to side(which I don't think you can do but I don't have my AB on me atm so).

I might agree if who gets to fight is the only issue, but ranks effect combat resolution also. And your example is a good one for illustrating this. I'll assume that the first row of Krox are centered with 2 skinks on either side (actually 4 - 2 in each rank). So the unit looks something like this (with 4 K's being 1 Krox):

S S S S S S S S S S
S S K K K K K K S S
S S K K K K K K S S
S S K K K K S S S S
S S K K K K S S S S
S S S S S S S S S S

So how many ranks does this unit have for Combat resolution? Is it 6, counting the skinks in file #1? Or is it 4, counting the skink and Krox models in file #3? Or could it be 5, counting the skinks and single Krox in file #7?

I think the answer clearly should be 6, and that establishes that a rank is skink-sized. The horde rule states that models in the 3rd rank can make a supporting attack and that does not include the 2 Krox in the rear. Note that the horde rule specifically says the 3rd rank - it does not just say one model behind the fighting rank or something like that.

If the Krox stretch from side to side, it becomes a more difficult question. I still think only the first rank of Krox could attack, but I can definitely see other side.

I hope I'm missing something, because I think this would make large Skrox units much better, but I just don't see how it would be legal. Please let me know if you see something I don't.

 

[Gor-rok]

Page 41 of our army book seems to spell it out pretty well. You "...count the model on the larger base as the same number of models that would normally occupy that space". They have a good diagram, too.

Then, from the Kroxigor entry on page 53: "Kroxigors are always placed within the second rank, unless too few skinks remain in the front rank". (emphasis added)

This seems to indicate the following:
1) In a skrox unit, a kroxigor counts as rank 2 & 3 both.
2) Kroxigors can't be placed behind other kroxigors within the unit.
3) The only way extra attacks can be made from a horde formation is in files that don't have a kroxigor in them- the krox is already taking up the extra third rank that would get to attack.

That's how I read it, at any rate.

 

[n810]

Yep thats how I see it.