8th Ed. How do I beat the dress-men? (high-elf) in ETC

[Mr Phat]

Hey guys.
Im a rather new player (2 months deep) and have been drawn into WHFB by a friend of mine.
He is my usual casual opponent, and is most often using his HE army when we play.
To ready me for the local league we are playing by the 2400pts ETC restrictions.

heres the deal: I cant seem to beat him no matter what tactic I use
(not counting when we dont use restrictions)

This is his usual setup

1 solid block of white-lions (I want to beat these guys and feed their ASF GW's to them SO BADLY)
1 unit spear-men
3X 15 archers
1 Great eagle

1 lvl 4 mage (always shadow or death)
1 lvl 2 mage (varies)
1 bsb, prince I think

1-2 bolt throwers

variable units:
1 small unit swordmasters / phoenix guard
1 extra mage

for magic items he ALWAYS have the anulian crystal and the banner of sorcery

Tactic: turtle down in a solid corner formation and bolt, arrow, pit / comet me till I reach his lines .. then lions moves towards whatever is closest.


It just seems that under these restrictions I lose no matter what:




Slann (single or dual) just dosnt get optimal dice (he always takes one of my PD and gets + 1 Dispel dice + he gets a dispel bonus ...just for being high-elf) ..so in my turn I lose magic unless im extremely lucky on my roles.
In his turn he always get extra dice for the banner, so he usually win that one too, since he usually stands with double my Dispel dice and 2 nukes where I can only roll enough to dispel 1 of them.

His bolt-throwers always take out my scar-on-cold one and stegadons if I use them.
He knows to block his flanks for chameleon skinks, so I have to use terradons to get through his lines...but they get killed by his archers.

when my semi-depleted forces finally reaches his lines, the unharmed lions and swordmasters woops my saurus / templeguard / more than half-dead stegadons with ease.


the only units that I have solid succes with is the skirmishers, which usually do their part on warmachine hunting or harrashing.

that and the 2 single attempts I had with the carnosaur which was more miracles than deserved.

--
to leave it there flat on the table: I MUST be a terrible general that dosnt know his troops. Because whatever I plan in my head never meets the odds on the table.
And no matter what lore(s) and combos I try to get off seems to get overpowered with ease.

So here is my question.

how would you put together a 2400ETC list against this HE setup, and which plays would you try to get through?

please help this newbie beat those dress-men.
I really want my crippled slanns and saurus troops to shine.

 

[rychek]

How are you equipping your Slann? Which lore are you taking? High Elves hate, hate, hate Dwellers Below as it can kill 50% of the White Lions on average (T test against T3 units really sucks for that unit).

How are you arranging your troops? One big block of Saurus? How many in said block? Multiple blocks? Are you taking Salamanders? The WL block won't like them much if you can get a couple flame shots off. They probably won't break, but they should take a few wounds off.

 

[n810]

hmmmmm.... Does ECT have restrictions on the number of skinks you can take... ?

 

[Mr Phat]

I tried a bit of everything really..
And I usually run life or light against him.
I just never get the dwellers off... in ETC I can only throw 5 on it..he can throw whatever and gets dispel bonus for wearing dresses and having pointy ears (yes im bitter).

if I go Dual slann its usually

Slann 1 - Focus of mystery - Life /light
Slann 2 - Focus / becalming cogitation / cupped - Light / shadow

if I go single its just focus and becalming together on him.

I dont like using focused rumination since it cant produce more than 2 dice because of restrictions, and those will automatically be used on the first spells cast by that slann. (and it gets useless if you have items that count for powerdice like cupped hands)

for the rest of the units.. I cant give you a regular setup as ive been trying so much different.
but..

usually my list has the max of 3 unit skirmishers of variable size (never smaller than 15 a piece)

1 or 2 templeguard bunkers ( I know I should drop them, I just hate that our 1 special infantry isnt worth using)

I always have a 24 (6wide) block of saurus, sometimes two.
All the times ive gone saurus heavy they get overrun one at a time.. or even bestet by his similar size "Hi we attack in 4 ranks" core spearmen.

3 salamanders (maximum for the 0-1 unit restriction) ..never gets to live long from shooting.

today I thought "hey, what if I have multi big targets, that way he has to spread his fire and SOME of them has to get to him" ....conclussion.... wrong.

I really...really think I suck at this game.

 

[Mr Phat]

hmmmmm.... Does ECT have restrictions on the number of skinks you can take... ?

ETC restrictions

Lizardmen (2400p)
Jungle swarm, Skinks <20, Skinks skirmish 0-3 each
Salamanders are a 0-1
Scar-Veterans on coldone 0-2
Cogitations counts as +2 dispel dice
Cupped hands of the Old Ones +2 power dice
Scroll/Cube of darkness/1 or more slanns, max 2 in total
Death lore/bane head/feedback scroll/Cupped hands of the Old Ones, max 1 in total.
Crown of Comand/Standard of Discipline/Focused Rumination/Higher State of Consciusness/1 or more slanns, max 2 in total
Skinks <20/Skink skirmirshers/Jungle swarms/Chameleon skinks/Terradons/Salamanders/Razordons/Slann, units are max 9 in total



max 3 skirmisher units
max 9 skink units in total (and thats if you DONT use the other units that count against it)

 

[n810]

Oh yea ... I forgot... ECT...

HATES LIZARDMEN !

 

[rychek]

The more I learn about the ETC, the happier I am that I don't have to play by their rules.

 

[Juhaaha]

WIP versio of 3rd draft is on TWF

Lizardmen (2400p)
Salamanders units, max 1.
Mounted Scar-Veterans, max 2
Cupped hands of the Old Ones +2 power dice
Cogitations/Dispel Scroll/Cube of darkness, max 1 in total
Bane head can not be taken by a model with feedback scroll and/or the Lore of Death.
Crown of Comand/Standard of Discipline/Focused Rumination/Higher State of Consciusness, max 1 in total
Non character units consisting of less than 20 models and costing 130pts or under, max 6

Pretty much cleared up the wall of text of previous draft.

Dual slann, light & death. I know sun wont do a crap, but it blocks enemies movement (you cant voluntarely walk through the sun as per Rulebook FAQ). plus D&D + sallies have potential. WS I10 removes HE rerolls, net makes his lvl4 magic work on 3+ (wizards usually dwell in WL bunker)

 

[Scalenex]

The more I learn about the ETC, the happier I am that I don't have to play by their rules.

+1. If anyone has any insight on circumventing ETC restrictions and making good lists, I think such a thread would be a fine addition to the Tactica index.

Back to OP. Your opponent seems to be basing his tactics around shooting. I'd suggest using the Lore of Light. Pha's Protection will give with a bubble effect will help large swaths of troops from missile fire and the Net of Amytok will outright stop a bolt thrower from shooting for a turn. Either Light of Battle or Timewarp will nullify the HEs rerolls in close combat.

Alternatively take a Heavens Slann, with a Skink priest caddying something you don't need lore mastery on the Slann (and can take Ice Shard Blizzard twice to double up on anti-shooting hexes). If you opponent is castling up, you can hit with a Comet to punish him for not moving or Wind Blast things to knock together to punish him for clustering tightly. Chain Lightning would work even better. Most HE lists use Eagles so the Heavens lore attribute should be handy (thought ETC probably limits eagles because they can be a redirector...).

 

[Mr Phat]

The more I learn about the ETC, the happier I am that I don't have to play by their rules.

Wish I didnt have to.
the only thing I really hate is that it seems like the foul-ones (those who wrote the restrictions) just did everything they could to bring down the Slann from "terrific mage" to "like all the others" (shut up about his wardsave or his 5 wounds, those things dosnt make him a better caster)

somewhere in the writting process they forgot that its our centerpiece, and that most games (to me at least) relies on the Slann to get some buffs / debuffs through.

Back to OP. Your opponent seems to be basing his tactics around shooting. I'd suggest using the Lore of Light. Pha's Protection will give with a bubble effect will help large swaths of troops from missile fire and the Net of Amytok will outright stop a bolt thrower from shooting for a turn. Either Light of Battle or Timewarp will nullify the HEs rerolls in close combat.

Alternatively take a Heavens Slann, with a Skink priest caddying something you don't need lore mastery on the Slann (and can take Ice Shard Blizzard twice to double up on anti-shooting hexes). If you opponent is castling up, you can hit with a Comet to punish him for not moving or Wind Blast things to knock together to punish him for clustering tightly. Chain Lightning would work even better. Most HE lists use Eagles so the Heavens lore attribute should be handy (thought ETC probably limits eagles because they can be a redirector...).

the problem here is: I cant get magic through. He always have plenty dispel dice (crystal: take one Powerdice from opponent and add it to your dispel pool + he gets dispelling bonus for being high-elf)

what grind my gears is that his magic-phase boosters arent restricted in any way.
Normally in ETC you can only generate 2Power Dice per turn and 2 Dispell dice...but HE gets to have 3PD ...so Banner of Socery stays the same, and his Crystal actually gains value.

High Elves (2500p,+1 Power Dice) <--- oh yes, they also get a 100 extra pts...cause their units are expensive and "useless"... (YES IM BITTER)

Vortex Shard counts as +1 dispel dice
Book of Hoeth counts as 3 power dice and 2 dispel dice
Banner of the World Dragon counts as +1 dispel dice


Is the general advice: "Dont play etc" ? , dosnt seem like anyone have advice that isnt magic based.. not that its bad, it just wont work unless I roll perfect in the exact turn I need it.
Statisticly he ALWAYS have the upperhand in magicphases.

 

[Irish_Lizard]

I pretty much exclusively play etc restrictions and my main armies are HE and Liz so I can easily see both sides of the battlefield. Without the etc restrictions the game is so one sided it isnt even funny.

Your opponents list is nowhere close to optimal so with a few small adjustments to your list and play style you should have no bother beating him as even under etc Lizards are slightly better than HE. Besides the new book is out in 2 weeks for HE so there doesnt seem much point in being too detailed here.

Movement:
He doesn't have enough eagles to charge your skinks off his lines so get 30 chamo skinks and use them to massacare his archers. Dont let him charge with a full block of elite inf as SM or WL will eat anything we have with ease. double flee his block of lions with terradons or feed it a min sized unit of skinks to force it aside so you can get to his soft points. Basic line is dont fight white lions in combat unless you outnumber them at least 2-1 in model count.

Magic:
If he has crystal then he probably has no scroll so use as many dice as possible to force off one or 2 spells. This also minimizes his +1 to dispel. Use death to snipe out the carrier of the crystal and is his BSB has the banner of sorcery then him too. Heavens on a slann will force him out of his corner and chain lightning can damage his small units if they are close together. Life will do little against good player which it seems like your opponent is so cut it. Light is fine and the MM can nuke the fragile elves and the phas bubble can help save skinks from shooting. Oh and for the love of the old ones put rumination back in the list it's comped for a reason.

Shooting:
most important part of this matchup. Kill the archers first as they will put the hurt on skinks even chamo ones. Make them move to keep you in arc so they take the to hit penalty. Once the archers are dead, fleeing or ineffective start shooting the combat blocks salamanders will roast even white lions. Just remember to focus fire.Keep you're scar vets in units so they cant be picked out by bolt throwers(even when mounted!)

Combat:
If you're in combat before turn 5 then either you're doing it wrong or your shooting has been fantastic. Skrox are better than saurus in the matchup and temple guard are worthless. Lions beat saurus but can't take the crack back so bring big ass units if you want saurus(32-37). dont bother with standards. Once the lions are down to ~20 or less you can safely engage. Mounted vets can solo most units in his army bar the lions so dont be afraid to charge them out solo.

tl:dr double flee his combat blocks, snipe his mages, shoot the archers, mop up turn 5 with 30+ saurus blocks.

If anyone has any insight on circumventing ETC restrictions and making good lists, I think such a thread would be a fine addition to the Tactica index.

I may as well take you up on this and try to give it a shot. I would recommend watching this video by the polish etc captain discussing the lizardmen and the etc restrictions (in english!).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYe1fxYFJuM&feature=youtu.be

 

[Mr Phat]

I couldnt ask for a better answer, thank you good sir! your words will be thought through!


just one thing.

Oh and for the love of the old ones put rumination back in the list it's comped for a reason.

Cupped hands counts as +2 pd , which cancels out the rumination effect completly.
I should leave it at home?

Do you recommend dual slann?
or just a single becalming, rumination death/heavens/light slann?

im getting the feeling I should go single slann and let the Skink Priests go for a spin.


again, thank you. That was way more thorough than I hoped for!

 

[Stonecutter]

While cupped might help you, rumination is guaranteed to help you each and every turn. I fully agree with Irish Lizard's excellent assessment and summary. The lore of light (and heavens) has relatively low casting values and thus rumination is key to overcoming the HE magic defence (strangely, the draft ETC 2013 does not indicate that the annualian crystal counts as any extra DD beyond the 1 that is steals). This makes a big difference in each turn and over the course of an entire game. A quick example is a "standard" winds of magic roll of 7 (4+3). Without rumination, the PDD ratio will be 6:5 in your favour - not a big advantage given that HE's also have +1 to dispel. Essentially, you might get 3 spell attempts and at least two of them the HE would have the advantage in dispelling since they would be +5 to +4 with the same number of dice. Only on the last spell might the tables be turned in your favour somewhat with 2 PD to only 1 DD.

Now, try the same situation with rumination and the PDD ratio goes to 8:5. This is enough for 4 spells with 2 dice each or 2 with 3 dice (say some upper level attempts) and one with 2 dice. It will be vastly more difficult for the HE to defend against this and at least 1-2 spells will be getting through per turn. The scroll could easily be gone in turn 1 by casting net of amyntok, banishment and an upper level pha's protection.

 

[Mr Phat]

I see, makes good sense. Furthermore I think got a plan emerging.
Thanks guys, appriciate it.