8th Ed. How do our monsters Fare?

By all means - I was thinking that it was stupid that stone statues could be taken down with tiny darts as long as they were poisoned when in reality they would laugh them off. Certainly there could be an Immune To Poison BRB special rule (if there isn’t one already) that could apply to stuff like undead in general and other creatures made out of stone or similarly protective material, and if there is one already sphinxes should have been given it.

 

Well I would huess that it's role is not to take on infantry, but if it does, it will have its thunderstomps, so it effectively has 7,5 attacks (not taken into account that 4 of those has to hit)

I've just conducted a little research on the Carnosaur, but comparing it to other monsters in a straigt up fight, and considering the Carnosaur should be a monster hunter, it is not impressive. Take a look, though bear in mind that I might have made some mistakes:

Carnosaur (220) 4:2.222... 5: 2.777... vs. Treeman (225) 2.3333... - Winner: Draw

1. Carnosaur (220) 4:3.333... 5: 4.1666... vs. Chimera (230) 3.555... - Winner: Chimera

2. Carnosaur (220) 4: 1.333... 5: 1.666... vs. Warsphinx 1.333... (210) - Winner: Carnosaur

3. Carnosaur (220) 4: 1.333... 5: 1.666... vs. Necrosphinx (225) 1.666... + chance to kill outright - Winner: Necrosphinx

4. Carnosaur (220) 4: 3.333... 5: 4.1666... vs. Dragon ogre shaggoth (215) Hand wespon 2.666... GW: 2.777... - Winner: Carnosaur

5. Carnosaur (220) 4: 2.666 5: 3.333 vs. Arachnorak (290) 5.5 - Winner: Arachnorak

6. Carnosaur (220) 4: 1.333... 5: 1.666... vs. Stonehorn (250) 1.666... - Winner: Stonehorn

7. Carnosaur (220) 4: 1.333... 5: 1.666... vs. Thundertusk (250) 1.333... - Winner: Draw/Carnosaur

8. Carnosaur (220) 4: 1.111... 5: 1.3888... vs. Flamespyre phoenix (225) 1 - Winner: Carnosaur

9. Carnosaur (220) 4: 0.666... 5: 0.8333... vs. Frostheart phoenix (240) 1.777... - Winner: Frostheart

10. Carnosaur (220) 4: 3.333... 5: 4.1666... vs. Sun dragon (235) 1.111 - Winner: Carnosaur

11. Carnosaur (220) 4: 2.666... 5: 3.333... vs. Moon dragon (300) 2.222 - Winner: Carnosaur

12. Carnosaur (220) 4: 2 5: 1.666... vs. Star Dragon (390) 3.333 - Winner: Star Dragon

13. Carnosaur (220) 4: 2.666... 5: 3.333... vs. Stegadon (215) 1.333... - Winner: Carnosaur

14. Carnosaur (220) 4: 2.666... 5: 3.333... vs. Ancient Stegadon (235) 1 - Winner: Carnosaur

Carnosaur wins: 7 out of 14

All damage is the average, and the Carnosaur is listed with averages when it has 4 and 5 attacks.
the Carnosaur only wins half of these fights, and some of them only barely. That is not what I call impressive for a unit that should be geared towards killing other monsters.

As a quick extra test I forgot to make, the Carnosaur draws with War Hydra and loses to the Kharibdyss, as the Khariibdyss strikes first. Both monsters cost 160 points.

 

Good write-up.

I've never been that impressed with the Carnosaur. It would seem that the math supports my feelings on it. And this is the best case scenario for it, it's intended purpose. It would fare even worse when considering the game as a whole.

 

I'll analyse these too if you don't mind:

1. I'm guessing that both the Carnosaur and Treeman killed each other, making it a draw? If that's the case, there's nothing more that can be said about that.
2. I'm not sure what to make of the Chimera - is it another monster killer? If so, then I understand why the Carnosaur lost - it does cost more points after all - but perhaps the Carnosaur should be buffed to make it not so much a thrashing as more of a pyrrhic victory.
3. No contest here - The Warsphinx is a dedicated infantry killer, so is always going to struggle against a monster killer like the Carnosaur.
4. This is a much closer one, but I can understand the Carnosaur losing to Heroic Killing Blow - nothing much can be done about that.
5. The Shaggoth is a monstrous character as far as I remember, and Monstrous Characters don't have that many wounds. More like Monstrous Infantry than monsters.
6. I can understand the Carnosaur losing to the Arachnarok - one of the biggest monsters in the game with 8 wounds and has Venom Surge that deals Multiple Wounds (D6) with one of its attacks. This chap was always going to be a difficult one for a significantly smaller Carnosaur to kill.
7. Now first of all, did the Stonehorn charge the Carnosaur? If so, I'm not surprised it won (the Stonehorn was designed to have all its attack power on the charge), while if not I am slightly surprised at how it could have beaten the Carno, but maybe Stonehorns were meant to be the Ogre monster killers.
8. Like the Warsphinx, no contest. The Thundertusk is again an infantry killer that relies on forcing targets to strike last and relying on its S4 Ogre riders to deal a high quantity of infantry-killing attacks.
9. I'd say that this win is fine - from my memory of its profile, the Flamespyre again looks like an infantry killer. Was it reborn from the flames in your fight, or did you leave this out? I ask because of course a Carnosaur on his own quite understandably wouldn't be able to keep taking on the resurrected Phoenix and win.
10. Like the Thundertusk this chap relies on forcing opponents to strike last, but has more attacks with a higher Strength. However, he still must have killed the Carno first time as otherwise I'm pretty sure the Carnosaur could still mincemeat him on the returning attack.
11. I'd say there was little contest here because Sun Dragons are pretty weak, all the more galling in that they cost more than the Carnosaur yet have less attack power for jack-of-all-trades monsters like Dragons. They must have nerfed Dragons in the High Elf book in support of the new Phoenixes.
12. This was actually pretty funny and all but confirms my last statement - the Moon Dragon is 70 more points than the Carnosaur yet still loses.
13. Now again, I can understand the Carnosaur losing - the Star Dragon is the big daddy of the High Elf dragons (with 7 or 8 wounds I think) so like the Arachnarok was always going to be a toughie to beat.
14. Stegadon and Ancient Stegadon - these chaps are once again infantry killers and the Carnosaur quite rightly is able to beat them.

All damage is the average, and the Carnosaur is listed with averages when it has 4 and 5 attacks.
the Carnosaur only wins half of these fights, and some of them only barely. That is not what I call impressive for a unit that should be geared towards killing other monsters.

I can understand that this looks bad, but I think you should look at the Carnosaur in the light that it should be able to kill all (or most) monsters with around 5 or 6 wounds, especially infantry killers - they are around the same size and there are very few reasons why the Carnosaur shouldn't be able to kill monsters around its size - but it shouldn't be too powerful against monsters with 7 or more wounds - these monsters are much bigger and understandably have size to their advantage and cost notably more points (especially the Star Dragon). While it shouldn't be impossible for the Carnosaur to kill them, it should have a rocky time trying to kill them - otherwise, why would players bother taking such huge monsters as the Arachnarok or the Star Dragon if they can be easily killed by a monster noticeably smaller than they are?

Although that is pretty ridiculous I have to admit, but I'd say that is more due to the Kharibdyss and Hydra being far too cheap. GW showed horrendous favouritism toward Dark Elves in 8th (giving them two White Dwarfs' worth of reinforcements coverage rather than the standard 1), and certainly Dark Elves are one of the biggest candidates for a nerf-bat in my Unofficial Ninth Edition (but I'm going to nerf them to bring them back down to Middle Tier). indeed I'm going to try to bring all Higher Tier armies down to Middle Tier and bring all Lower Tier armies up, because this game's supposed to be balanced and what's the point in marketing a game as balanced if some armies become Higher Tier due to favouritism and others become Lower Tier due to lack of it, making the game completely unbalanced?

 

All of the mathcups was done in as only close combat, and no charges for either side.

1. Maybe, but is the Treeman really a monster killer?

2. Regarding the Chimera, it seems to be good at most things, since it has lots of attacks, at S6, so it will chew through infantry and a lot of monsters since it has WS4, and against infantry it of course has the thunderstomp as well; It also has access to a breath weapon, so it might be 10 points more than a Carnosaur, but it does basically everything better, and comes with swiftstride since it has fly.

3. sure it struggles, but the Carnosaur does not fair much better, and with the Warsphinx being an infantry-killer, it seems very close all things considered.

4. These are equally matched, but the Necrosphinx has the slight edge due to HKB.

5. The Shaggoth has S6, T5 and 6 wounds, so very much a monster.

6. It is fair that it wins, but it wins in just one turn, and it gets lots of 'free' upgrades in comparison the the Carnosaur.

7. No charge, straight up combat.

8. Yes the Carnosaur is the winner, but barely.

9. With the Phoenix, I did not take into account that it could be reborn.

10. Yes the carno CAN 'mincemeat him', but statistically really absolutely does not, not even a single wound per turn, on average.

11. Okay fine, the sun dragon is weak, but it does have a free breath weapon, that is not factored into the fight (for none of the dragon in fact), and does have fly, which is a big deal for monsters, and so again has swiftstride, which the Carnosaur needs to pay extra for.

12. True, but this is the only fight where the Carnosaur shows that it can kill monsters. In general it should kill other monsters above its points, otherwise whats the point of having it be "specialized" in killing monsters, reality is that it doesn't.

13. The star dragon is fair, it is so much more expensive, but with its statline is a killer of everything.

14. Correct, although if the Ancient Stegadon has sharpened horns, it becomes a better monster hunter than the Carnosaur, provided it can get the charge, since it will then do 6 wounds on average against Toughness 5 on the impact hits alone; even against Toughness 6 it would do 4.5.


It is true that the Dark elves have underpriced monsters, but still, the Carnosaur does lose.

 

I definitely would not consider the Treeman a dedicated monster killer. It is just an overall very good monster with stubborn, 3+ scaly skin and a 6+ ward. It's tree whack attack is pretty good against low initiative monsters. I look at the Treeman as a good "jack of all trades" monster.

The Chimera is an amazing monster. In a realistic game setup it would smoke the carno because nobody takes it without the 15 point 4+ regen upgrade. You are absolutely correct that it is FAR better than the Carno. The fly special rule alone is a huge advantage.

Curious, in your calculation, did include the fact that the Necrosphinx's HBK attack is S10?

The Steggy is way better since it is more resistant to most forms of ranged attacks and has a ranged attack itself. Plus it is stubborn and is more capable of shrugging off things like pit of shades or purple sun.

 

No doubt about it. A Treeman is an ideal target for Kroxigors. The hard part with Kroxigors is getting them there intact, especially when the Wood Elves can field so much fire power.

 

On that note, isn't Kroxigor just better monster hunters than the Carnosaur?

 

I'd say only in units of 6 which costs a good lot more in points, as they're only T4.

 

True it's more points and Toughness 4 isn't great, but you do get 13 attacks more than with the Carnosaur, and 13 more wounds. The attacks hit just as well as the Carnosaur's and as long as there is three Kroxigor, you get 3 stomps against infantry against the Carnosaur's 3.5 on average.
The downsides seem to be one less movement, being susceptible to fear through terror and having always strikes last.

 

Have your calculations taken into account the fact that the carnosaur can only be taken as a mount? You can’t look at it as a monster on its own because there are very very few situations where that will be the case.

Your calculations need to take into account the fact that a scar vet or old blood will be on its back, the points cost for that included and equipment given. It’s a lot harder to calculate and can’t be done as a straight up monster/monster fight.

If I’m being honest - in 8th edition our monsters suck and it’s nothing to do with their stats, their stats are awesome IMO (for the most part). The biggest hinderance to their usefulness is that they can’t disrupt. A flank charging carnosaur can’t break some skaven slaves but 10 skinks can? Give over.

If I move my Stegadon and try and shoot something with the bow it needs to be 6 to hit minimum? So I need to keep my melee monster stationary in order to fire the bow with any degree of accuracy? And if for some reason I do hit on a 6 the poison only works on the first model hit and not every model hit? What the hell is this crap? For 200+ points? Don’t get me started on the blow darts, I reckon I average 1-2 wounds from a million shots on average, and even then at 18” range it’s risking getting charged. And sure I get it - our monsters are not designed to shoot stuff - but wait a minute.... they have clearly been designed to shoot stuff so why the hell don’t the rules allow any synergy for this?

The solardon is an odd one. I like it because you can 1 dice the bound spell and if it goes off you’re opponent has to throw 2 dice minimum to dispell. Win win. However it’s strength is it’s weakness - it uses power dice, often the slann needs as many power dice as possible to get anything done, and risking 1 dice to try and eek out 2 dispel dice can be a risk. Again with the synergy - it has an awesome armour save, has no flank or rear and gets a bonus attack for getting attacked in the rear, it should be the ultimate tank - yet it has no stubborn and toughness 4. It’s as tough as a Saurus warrior.

There are some odd design choices at play with our monsters, and while my outburst would lead you to think I don’t like them you would be wrong. I love them really. However what we generally see in 8th edition meta is huge infantry blocks - meaning that viable targets are slim.

 

I respectfully disagree, since it's purely on a monster vs. monster basis. I riders were to be taken into account it would get weird; would the other monster attack the monster or the rider? No, I believe it is best to look at the monsters separate from any riders.

I like our monsters too, I just can't help to notice their flaws, especially compared to the monsters from other factions.
Seems to me that we just got the short end of the stick, seeing as none of our monsters has swiftstride, fly or regen and most aren't actually that good in combat; sure the carno has a lot of potential, but it's not reliable at all. Sure our monsters can be a good support unit against infantry, but that the basically true for all monsters, and might actually be the real problem in monster design, since if all monsters are by design good against infantry, how do you balance anything that is supposed to also do something else, without it being too good at everything?

Our stegadon would benefit greatly from being able to use the BS of a Skink chief for its shooting, our bastiladon would be great if bound spells worked like they did in 6th, the Troglodon just needs a big point reduction or to always have the roar active, while the Carnosaur would be better as a monster killer from having either WS 4 or +1 to hit against large targets, or getting a point reduction or upgrades for free.

I don't believe that's how it works (it's not how I've interpreted the rules anyway), 10 skinks cannot break a unit of 100 skaven slaves lets say, they can disrupt them sure, but that only takes away their rank bonus for combat resolution, they'll still be steadfast.

 

In the Carnosaur vs Kroxigor debate, don't forget that a cannon can ruin a Carnosaur real quick. As for the Saurus character on top, he is better fielded on a cold one. It doesn't look as a cool, but from a gaming perspective it is the far superior choice.

 

That is my mis-interpretation. I was thinking disruption prevented steadfast. But even so I think monsters should count as a few ranks for the purposes of steadfast and disruption.

 

Very true, and there is that unfavorable stuff that a Cannonball hits both rider and mount; With the kroxigor, the cannonball has a higher chance of being stopped if it does not kill a model. as long as there are 3 kroxigor alive they will also be steadfast against monsters.

Agreed, monsters need something to help them in combat to make up for their vulnerability, most monsters at least.