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AoS How do you stop the Frostlord on Stonehorn?

Huh. I rolled some dice and tried to figure out the mathematics behind it (theoretically, I own neither of those models), and the Stonehorn came out on top.

So I am really curious: What do you think was the ability or synergy that contributed most to its success during your tournament?
I'd assume the "Ravening Onslaught" isn't THAT severe because of the rules of one, and the healing isn't very good if you attack it with a low model count, which leaves... the sheer number of attacks at -2 rend?

EDIT:
Ok I did some further math (correctly I hope) and I think for a 1vs1 between those two it comes down to the first round. If the Stonehorn gets the first attack and does at least 4 wounds (on average it should do 5 or so) it becomes very unlikely for the Mourngul to kill it in less than 3 rounds, which in turn means the Stonehorn is a bit more likely to win.
But of course if you don't compare them directly but against different enemies the outcome will be quite different. The anti-Bravery ability and healing of the Mourngul make it immensely powerful against horde units, and it ignores rend which makes it retain its good save.
The Stonehorn is a bit more vulnerable to rend, and you can chaff it well because of its forced charge. But it has SO many wounds...

They are both OP, I can't really tell which is worse. Depends on who fights it. I guess anything with good rend and/or many attacks at a distance can be a good threat to the Stonehorn though. The Mourngul... I think you just can flood it with attacks and pray.
 
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The fact is that you cannot consider them in a vacuum.
a mourngul will be a primary target for any mystic shield by a necromancer (casters that Beastclaw Allegiance are lacking), and near a hero it will be protected also by the ward save of Death.

Anyway, let's try to avoid those elements: a Death army will have planty of disposable screen units, be them zombies, ghouls, dire wolves. The Stonehorn is fast, but it does't fly, while the mourngul flies and Beastclaw suffer from a lack of chaff units.

I'd say that 4 times on 5 it will be the mourngul that charges the Frostlord.

8 Attacks at rend -2 hurts, and yeah, the frostlord suffers little from wounds, but anyway it got a penalty of -1 to hit the mourngul.

Of course, if the mourngul fails a couple of saves, that's bad news, but it really depends on the buffs it has: and buffs are a thing that a Death army is plenty of.


In an arena match, 1 vs 1, my money goes on the Frostlord, hands down.
 
You could try kiting it away with skinks. Take a min unit of skinks and put them in charge range. Then make sure you have a more important combat to make. They will have to chose that one letting you run away with your skinks during pile in. Next turn do the same. By this point it has hopefully been pulled out of the game.
 
Jason839 said:
You could try kiting it away with skinks. Take a min unit of skinks and put them in charge range. Then make sure you have a more important combat to make. They will have to chose that one letting you run away with your skinks during pile in. Next turn do the same. By this point it has hopefully been pulled out of the game.
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My thoughts exactly. The "must charge within 12"" is huge. What if that unit within 12" was far away from where it matters ? With a combination of an important fight elsewhere let him pick : be distracted even further or get crushed and have the tides tuened elsewhere.
 
So destruction and Death have a monster that is considered OP, what does Order have?
 
Seraphage said:
My thoughts exactly. The "must charge within 12"" is huge. What if that unit within 12" was far away from where it matters ? With a combination of an important fight elsewhere let him pick : be distracted even further or get crushed and have the tides tuened elsewhere.
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The sad fact is the it doesn't care.
Before the charge phase, there is the d3 "free movement" granted by destruction (and even by some abilities of Beastclaw), and, most of all, the 12" move of the stonehorn.
So yeah, it move 12", then it will be forced to charge... a thing that it wants to do anyway, to the point the it can re-roll che dices for charge.
Trust me, it goes almost wherever it wants, and charges almost always whatever it wants. You can only protect key units with chaffs.

Crowsfoot said:
So destruction and Death have a monster that is considered OP, what does Order have?
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Without thinking too much?
Drycha is decisely top tier.
 
There are of course other not so well balanced units. Although IMO at least most of the very strong ones in Order and Chaos have fitting point costs.
Chaos has the Hellcannon though, which I heard is weirdly good, and some Skaven thingie as well. Still not unbeatable.

And worth a mention: even though some units are OP that doesn't mean an automatic win. But If you notice a certain unit in every list regardless how it looks otherwise that may be a hint that something is perhaps a bit too good. Which is also bad because it takes options away.
Hurricanum may be a candidate in Order IMO. Although many order lists don't use it. We just need it for our lists because our Slanns are so bad. :D

Regarding armies: recently updated ones are often stronger it seems, and the Stormcast are so versatile and have a lot of individually strong units that I consider them a bit OP as well. But I'd say optimistically speaking it might only be temporary, with other armies reaching that power level too once they are upgraded.
 
Throw a Dread Saurian at it. Done the rolls, it can get dicey if you lose the double turn but the dread saurian will kill it in 1-2 turns depending on luck with the Jaw roll.

Of course we don't all have a Dread Saurian.

Alternatively wait til we get a new battletome to give us some power creep back. I'm still hoping for Kroq-Gar to make a comeback.

Although I may just go buy a Dread Saurian.
 
Ah and one more thing: what I really think is weird: sometimes the balancing goes horribly wrong into the other direction as well. Destruction has this really cool Aleguzzler, a nice model...which sucks so much. Maw Krusha is also interesting. I really feared it. Until I played against it. IMO not worth those over 500 points. My shadowstrike starhost used it as a pin cushion and killed it in one round.

But yeah, other armies might experience it differently. There are not many armies that are good against everything. Except Stormcast.
Example: my friend's Ironjawz vs. Me playing Saurus: Orruks won every time. Me playing shooty Skinks list: Orruks lost most of the time.

We can be thankful that while we might not have the strongest army we at least have a versatile one with lots of options. We might need more luck or very specific lists against some, like the Stonehorn, but others have it much worse. Cursed to play a single list because it is the only viable one, or just too bad for almost everything.
 
Aginor said:
Ah and one more thing: what I really think is weird: sometimes the balancing goes horribly wrong into the other direction as well. Destruction has this really cool Aleguzzler, a nice model...which sucks so much. Maw Krusha is also interesting. I really feared it. Until I played against it. IMO not worth those over 500 points. My shadowstrike starhost used it as a pin cushion and killed it in one round.

But yeah, other armies might experience it differently. There are not many armies that are good against everything. Except Stormcast.
Example: my friend's Ironjawz vs. Me playing Saurus: Orruks won every time. Me playing shooty Skinks list: Orruks lost most of the time.

We can be thankful that while we might not have the strongest army we at least have a versatile one with lots of options. We might need more luck or very specific lists against some, like the Stonehorn, but others have it much worse. Cursed to play a single list because it is the only viable one, or just too bad for almost everything.
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My experience with a Maw Krusha was it destroyed 2 units of saurus guard I had defending an objective and took a carnosaur down to 1 wound, the carnosaur only living because I gave it Mystic Shield, the Starpriest Starlight and Priest rites.

That may be more the Carnosaur sucking more than a hooker down at the docks but that's my experience. I also remember having my Carnosaur do that one mission where the two heroes duel in the center, I actually won without taking a wound against another Oldblood (they both failed to wound each other for 3 turns) and my Carnosaur turned around, annihilated a Troglodon and then from full health was one shot by a Bastiladon. My point is I wish monsters in this game had a Toughness modifier instead of these ridiculous rules like halving wounds, or no rend. Just make it harder to wound them.

Never fought any of the Gargants, my experience with monsters in AoS has been decidedly poor. My Bloodthirster is not what he used to be, even though Outrageous Carnage is my favorite ability in the game.
 
skipperyoss said:
Throw a Dread Saurian at it. Done the rolls, it can get dicey if you lose the double turn but the dread saurian will kill it in 1-2 turns depending on luck with the Jaw roll.

Of course we don't all have a Dread Saurian.

Alternatively wait til we get a new battletome to give us some power creep back. I'm still hoping for Kroq-Gar to make a comeback.

Although I may just go buy a Dread Saurian.
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He is massive and in my view a really poor sculpt, it looks like a big rat, I like his rules alot and keep looking for a suitable substitute but alas I'm still looking.
 
I kiiinda like the sculpt, but the head is too big for the body and the spikes and the stuff it carries around are way too big, which makes it look comic-ish. Not worth all the money IMO.
I am working on something in that regard. Not yet far enough to show it though.
 
The monsters are very killable, which just makes your heroes seem more heroic, but yeah, even a blanket monster ability in the new GHB would be awesome, but I still like it when everything goes right and my 80 point skinks take down your 520 point monster.
@Crowsfoot I agree, I really want one, but I am not a fan of the appearance of the dread. Which is sad, because a lot of the forge world models are gorgeous.
@Aginor Looking forward to what you come up with.
 
I think the Saurus Sunblood is a good shout against the Stonie. None of it's rend attacks impact his save, give him a mystic shield and don't let him get charged. Stonie won't do a great deal of damage on average. Put him in the bloodclaw, get a BSB and you could do some damage I reckon.
 
Crowsfoot said:
He is massive and in my view a really poor sculpt, it looks like a big rat, I like his rules alot and keep looking for a suitable substitute but alas I'm still looking.
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Meh I was never astonished by it's sculpt but I cannot avoid seing it as a big rat after reading your comment. Unfortunately it seems to be right on :p
 
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