I was thinking about making one of my hammer units be a squad of ripper dactyls lead by a skink chief(with maybe an ogre blade and enchanted shield) but I wasnt sure how many rippers is enough rippers, I was thinking 4 plus the chief.
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8th Ed. how many rippers?
- Thread starter shahryar
- Start date
I was intending 4, but then I realised that the mounts don't get supporting attacks. As they are going to be going into the flanks of most things, only 3 models will probably get to attack anyway. In those instances you're likely not to lose one to wounds, so that 4th guy is just a bit wasted.
If yoy want to run Hand of Glory boosted units into the front of stuff, then definitely the bigger the better.
If yoy want to run Hand of Glory boosted units into the front of stuff, then definitely the bigger the better.
Carnasaur
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I'm thinking units of 3 are the way to go. Remember, for each new unit you get to place another blot toad, which gives you more targets to choose from with your ripper units. If you want more punch than 3, just get 3 more!
Terradon
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I've had 4 games now employing 2 units of 3 rippers and the size works well so far for the following reasons (some have already been mentioned but it never hurts to reinforce a good idea!):
1) no supporting attacks - it is all about the mount attacks and having a 4th one in the rear is wasted.
2) Flank attacks - Rippers are a glass hammer and should almost always be employed on a flank. A unit of 3 can hit even a two rank formation (standard archer deployment) and get all of their attacks in while only being subjected to 2 attacks back.
3) Cost - With only 3 rippers, losing an entire unit is only somewhat more painful than a unit of skirmish skinks and thus easily affordable whereas a unit of 4 is getting quite expensive.
4) Frog Fury/Amphibian Anger/Toad Tantrum - Multiple ripper units means that more enemy units can be marked for death. Having re-rolls to hit and getting 1-3 extra attacks each is a huge bonus and allows rippers to pose a serious threat to just about anything.
5) Assassination - It might be too tempting to try and preserve rippers rather than use them as disposable troops if the unit was too big and expensive. Exchanging a unit of three for even a 2nd level enemy wizard is well worth the price, not mention the huge advantage if you manage to take out a higher level wizard or other character with KB.
6) Magic buffs - opponents might be more tempted to let a buff like hand of glory or wyssan's go through on a unit of only 3 fliers but a bigger unit increases the odds of stopping the spell. This is especially true when other units like saurus/TG are in combat that could also benefit from the same spells.
1) no supporting attacks - it is all about the mount attacks and having a 4th one in the rear is wasted.
2) Flank attacks - Rippers are a glass hammer and should almost always be employed on a flank. A unit of 3 can hit even a two rank formation (standard archer deployment) and get all of their attacks in while only being subjected to 2 attacks back.
3) Cost - With only 3 rippers, losing an entire unit is only somewhat more painful than a unit of skirmish skinks and thus easily affordable whereas a unit of 4 is getting quite expensive.
4) Frog Fury/Amphibian Anger/Toad Tantrum - Multiple ripper units means that more enemy units can be marked for death. Having re-rolls to hit and getting 1-3 extra attacks each is a huge bonus and allows rippers to pose a serious threat to just about anything.
5) Assassination - It might be too tempting to try and preserve rippers rather than use them as disposable troops if the unit was too big and expensive. Exchanging a unit of three for even a 2nd level enemy wizard is well worth the price, not mention the huge advantage if you manage to take out a higher level wizard or other character with KB.
6) Magic buffs - opponents might be more tempted to let a buff like hand of glory or wyssan's go through on a unit of only 3 fliers but a bigger unit increases the odds of stopping the spell. This is especially true when other units like saurus/TG are in combat that could also benefit from the same spells.
while this goes about the rippers, how does the frenzy work no?
Do they replace there normal attacks with D3+1? Or is het there attack 1 +1 frenzy +D3+1? caus i read so many differnet things
I play 2 units of 3 aswell, murderd out 10 inner circle knights on charge :$
Do they replace there normal attacks with D3+1? Or is het there attack 1 +1 frenzy +D3+1? caus i read so many differnet things
I play 2 units of 3 aswell, murderd out 10 inner circle knights on charge :$
Stegadon
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Ferocious said:
It specifically says in the "Toad Rage" section that they get D3+1 extra attacks instead of just the usual 1 for frenzy. Each ripper has 2 attacks basic, 3 with frenzy, so Toad rage is 2 basic + D3 +1 for a minimum of 4 extra attacks and 6 maximum, with re-rolls on all failed misses.
So if you look at it likes this.
Assuming you roll 5's and 6's for your D3 rolls, 18 attacks, hitting on 4's with re-rolls which is...*rolls dice* 7 attacks, re-roll for 9 (ok so the dice gods do not like me today) 8 wounds (against toughness 3) and I failed to roll a single 6 to wound!
Terradon
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Here is some mathhammer on the average results for a unit of 3 rippers based on the following conditions:
1) The standard calculation = Probability of hitting x probability of wounding x probability of failed armour save x average number of attacks
2) The average roll will be used so any d3 = 2 (i.e. for hand of glory or beefed up frenzy)
3) Case 1 is a typical elf archer unit of 20 models
4) Case 2 is a typical High Elf spear unit of 20 models & an assassination run over the front (i.e. rippers are arranged so that two models touch the wizard and the 3rd model essentially provides for casualties without losing attacks on wizard).
Case 1A (flank charge vs Unit of 20 x T3/S3/WS4 troops - i.e. typical elf archer unit, unit PASSES fear check)
Riders = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1
Rippers = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 9 = 3
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.3
total CR = 5.3 + flank + charge = 7.3
Wounds taken = 4/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 2 = 0.3
End Result = Rippers win by 7 less standard & rank = 5
Case 1B (flank charge vs Unit of 20 x T3/S3/WS4 troops. Unit subject to Toad Rage, Unit PASSES fear check)
Riders = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1
Rippers = 3/4 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 15 = 7.5 [to hit = 1 - chance of missing = 1 - (3/6 x 3/6) = 3/4 ]
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.3
total wounds = 9.8 + flank + charge = 11.8
Wounds taken = 4/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 2 = 0.3
End Result = Rippers win by 11.5 less standard = 10
Case 1C (flank charge vs Unit of 20 x T3/S3/WS4 troops. Unit subject to Toad Rage, Rippers get Hand of Glory, Unit PASSES fear check)
Riders = 4/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1.3
Rippers = 8/9 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 15 = 8.9
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.3
total wounds = 11.5 + flank + charge = 13.5
Wounds taken = 4/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 2 = 0.3
End Result = Rippers win by 13 less standard = 12
Case 1D (flank charge vs Unit of 20 x T3/S3/WS4 troops. Unit subject to Toad Rage, Rippers get Hand of Glory & Wyssan's Wildform, Unit PASSES fear check)
Riders = 4/6 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1.7
Rippers = 8/9 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 15 = 11.1
Stomp = 6/6 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.7
total wounds = 14.5 + flank + charge = 16.5
Wounds taken = 4/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 2 = 0.3
End Result = Rippers win by 16 less standard = 15
Case 2A - Assassination run vs HE spears, all attacks directed on wizard. HE pass fear. Essentially this is worst case.
Wounds taken = 8/9 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 20 = 4.4 (two rippers die due to ASF re-rolls and the martial prowess allowing all 20 spears to attack).
Rider = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 1 = 0.3
Rippers = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1.0
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 5/6 x 1 = 0.5
Result - Rippers lose by ~4 and flee but wizard wounded.
Recommendation - only use this suicide run if the wizard is a already wounded.
Case 2B - Assassination run vs HE spears as per 2A but toad rage in effect.
Wounds taken = 8/9 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 20 = 4.4 (two rippers die)
Rider = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 1 = 0.3
Rippers = 3/4 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 5 = 2.5
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 5/6 x 1 = 0.5
Result - Rippers lose by ~3 and flee but wizard is killed. Rippers likely escape pursuit and no VP surrendered. Clear win for lizzies but Rippers are done for the game.
Recommendation - A good exchange and if the pursuit path is set up with a lizzie unit that will crush the HE, all the better.
Case 2C - Assassination run vs HE spears as per 2A. Toad Rage & Hand of Glory in effect for WS 4&5/I6&5.
Wounds taken = 3/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 20 = 2.5 (one ripper dies due to ASF. HE re-rolls lost as riders now I6)
Rider = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 0.7
Rippers = 8/9 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 10 = 5.9
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 5/6 x 2 = 0.5
Result - Since the riders and rippers have different initiatives, it will be possible to split the total ripper attacks based on whether or not the riders inflict a wound on the wizard. Even a wizard lord (without ward save) will most certainly be killed if all attacks are directed against them while a 4+ ward will result in a dead wizard lord on average if all attacks are put against them.
Recommendation - A lizzie victory as even a wizard lord with ward save is taken out. The possibility of winning combat by ~1 also exists if the ripper attacks are split evenly on unit/wizard based on rider results needing only one wound left to kill the wizard. This must be balanced against the importance of taking out the wizard since that is the main goal of the frontal assault.
Case 2D - Assassination run vs HE spears as per 2A. Toad Rage, Hand of Glory & Wyssan's in effect for Rippers.
Wounds taken = 3/6 x 2/6 x 3/6 x 20 = 1.7 (one ripper dies due to ASF. HE re-rolls lost as riders now I6)
Rider = 3/6 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 0.9
Rippers = 8/9 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 10 = 7.4
Stomp = 6/6 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.7
Result - Very similar to 2C but the impact of wyssan's reduces damage and increases casualties inflicted.
Recommendation - A lizzie victory as the wizard lord will certainly be killed unless the dice totally abandon the rippers. The possibility of winning combat overall by splitting attacks is even greater as the rippers have greater damage potential with wyssan's. Again, key factor in allocating attacks will be the importance of killing the wizard.
Hopefully, this info will provide useful to others in deciding how to employ rippers. They have definite potential for swinging the magic phase through assassination & Toad Rage. Rippers can lay a severe beating on T3/S3 troops with and without magical buffs but Toad Rage appears to be the biggest factor overall.
1) The standard calculation = Probability of hitting x probability of wounding x probability of failed armour save x average number of attacks
2) The average roll will be used so any d3 = 2 (i.e. for hand of glory or beefed up frenzy)
3) Case 1 is a typical elf archer unit of 20 models
4) Case 2 is a typical High Elf spear unit of 20 models & an assassination run over the front (i.e. rippers are arranged so that two models touch the wizard and the 3rd model essentially provides for casualties without losing attacks on wizard).
Case 1A (flank charge vs Unit of 20 x T3/S3/WS4 troops - i.e. typical elf archer unit, unit PASSES fear check)
Riders = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1
Rippers = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 9 = 3
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.3
total CR = 5.3 + flank + charge = 7.3
Wounds taken = 4/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 2 = 0.3
End Result = Rippers win by 7 less standard & rank = 5
Case 1B (flank charge vs Unit of 20 x T3/S3/WS4 troops. Unit subject to Toad Rage, Unit PASSES fear check)
Riders = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1
Rippers = 3/4 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 15 = 7.5 [to hit = 1 - chance of missing = 1 - (3/6 x 3/6) = 3/4 ]
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.3
total wounds = 9.8 + flank + charge = 11.8
Wounds taken = 4/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 2 = 0.3
End Result = Rippers win by 11.5 less standard = 10
Case 1C (flank charge vs Unit of 20 x T3/S3/WS4 troops. Unit subject to Toad Rage, Rippers get Hand of Glory, Unit PASSES fear check)
Riders = 4/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1.3
Rippers = 8/9 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 15 = 8.9
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.3
total wounds = 11.5 + flank + charge = 13.5
Wounds taken = 4/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 2 = 0.3
End Result = Rippers win by 13 less standard = 12
Case 1D (flank charge vs Unit of 20 x T3/S3/WS4 troops. Unit subject to Toad Rage, Rippers get Hand of Glory & Wyssan's Wildform, Unit PASSES fear check)
Riders = 4/6 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1.7
Rippers = 8/9 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 15 = 11.1
Stomp = 6/6 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.7
total wounds = 14.5 + flank + charge = 16.5
Wounds taken = 4/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 2 = 0.3
End Result = Rippers win by 16 less standard = 15
Case 2A - Assassination run vs HE spears, all attacks directed on wizard. HE pass fear. Essentially this is worst case.
Wounds taken = 8/9 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 20 = 4.4 (two rippers die due to ASF re-rolls and the martial prowess allowing all 20 spears to attack).
Rider = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 1 = 0.3
Rippers = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 3 = 1.0
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 5/6 x 1 = 0.5
Result - Rippers lose by ~4 and flee but wizard wounded.
Recommendation - only use this suicide run if the wizard is a already wounded.
Case 2B - Assassination run vs HE spears as per 2A but toad rage in effect.
Wounds taken = 8/9 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 20 = 4.4 (two rippers die)
Rider = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 1 = 0.3
Rippers = 3/4 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 5 = 2.5
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 5/6 x 1 = 0.5
Result - Rippers lose by ~3 and flee but wizard is killed. Rippers likely escape pursuit and no VP surrendered. Clear win for lizzies but Rippers are done for the game.
Recommendation - A good exchange and if the pursuit path is set up with a lizzie unit that will crush the HE, all the better.
Case 2C - Assassination run vs HE spears as per 2A. Toad Rage & Hand of Glory in effect for WS 4&5/I6&5.
Wounds taken = 3/6 x 3/6 x 3/6 x 20 = 2.5 (one ripper dies due to ASF. HE re-rolls lost as riders now I6)
Rider = 3/6 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 0.7
Rippers = 8/9 x 4/6 x 6/6 x 10 = 5.9
Stomp = 6/6 x 4/6 x 5/6 x 2 = 0.5
Result - Since the riders and rippers have different initiatives, it will be possible to split the total ripper attacks based on whether or not the riders inflict a wound on the wizard. Even a wizard lord (without ward save) will most certainly be killed if all attacks are directed against them while a 4+ ward will result in a dead wizard lord on average if all attacks are put against them.
Recommendation - A lizzie victory as even a wizard lord with ward save is taken out. The possibility of winning combat by ~1 also exists if the ripper attacks are split evenly on unit/wizard based on rider results needing only one wound left to kill the wizard. This must be balanced against the importance of taking out the wizard since that is the main goal of the frontal assault.
Case 2D - Assassination run vs HE spears as per 2A. Toad Rage, Hand of Glory & Wyssan's in effect for Rippers.
Wounds taken = 3/6 x 2/6 x 3/6 x 20 = 1.7 (one ripper dies due to ASF. HE re-rolls lost as riders now I6)
Rider = 3/6 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 0.9
Rippers = 8/9 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 10 = 7.4
Stomp = 6/6 x 5/6 x 6/6 x 2 = 1.7
Result - Very similar to 2C but the impact of wyssan's reduces damage and increases casualties inflicted.
Recommendation - A lizzie victory as the wizard lord will certainly be killed unless the dice totally abandon the rippers. The possibility of winning combat overall by splitting attacks is even greater as the rippers have greater damage potential with wyssan's. Again, key factor in allocating attacks will be the importance of killing the wizard.
Hopefully, this info will provide useful to others in deciding how to employ rippers. They have definite potential for swinging the magic phase through assassination & Toad Rage. Rippers can lay a severe beating on T3/S3 troops with and without magical buffs but Toad Rage appears to be the biggest factor overall.
Terradon
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shahryar said:
The same equation works for any possible combination, it is simply a matter of comparing the stats (WS for to hit, S vs T for wounding, AS less modifier for save, etc.) and then plugging them in. The equation only yields the average result and hence provides a decent "guesstimate" of how likely something is to occur (i.e. if you need to do 2 wounds and the average is 3 then chances are pretty good for success while an average of 5 would be much better).
Chameleon Skink
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Tried 3 ripperdactyls into a front row of orcs with 3 characters. 3 killing blow rolls later, less characters, no rippers, and more than made my points back and removed their bsb and wounded their Mage (leading to his miscast death ext turn). Currently sold on them, as that was all while forgetting they get reroll due to toad rage.
