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8th Ed. How to beat this 1K Tomb Kings list

hado75
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hado75

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Hi Guys,

tomorrow i'm playing against a friend of mine.
We still play a 1k campaign (the final rounds) and i'm facing a very "shootie" army....

This is his list:
Tomb Kings list (1200):
Banafrit with Destroyer of Eternities (Tomb King)
Anai with earthing rod (lv2 hierophant)
38 archers, full command
3 Necroknights, FC
Casket of Souls
Additional bonus points (200):
3 Stalkers
5 Archers (added to archer unit)

(and with this link you'll be able to read a battlereport vs Ogre kingdom: http://www.khemri.co.nr/)

This will be my list. (i'm not allowed to alter the list!)
Lizzies brought:
Old Blood on CO
Scar-Vet on CO
Priest (heavens)
24 SW hw/shield
2x 10 skink cohort
2 x 1 Sallie

(And with this link you'll be able to read a battlereport with this list: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/lz-vs-tk-1k.12596/)

I'm looking for some good advice.....
What's the best way to confront this list?

Thanks guys!
 
Havent played tomb kings myself and im quite new to the game but id say if u pimp ur oldblood and scarvet properly, they alone will annihilate alot of thngs in a 1000point list. I dont know what magic hierophants wield but sniping magic is cowboysauruses weak point. If u think thats will be the case give ur old lood the arabyan carpet and go mage hunting and give ur lvl 1 skink priest a dispel scroll.

What were thnkng of doing with the skinks, poison shoot high T, low AS dudes, redirect?
Those points could be used for sauruses unless u think the skinks are essential. Skinks are awesome, but u need to give them targets they exell against at.

Sallies are good but im not sure if they are too good against that many archers, they get like a double shooting with some tricksy magic? the question is can they get to them before they are shot or charged at. There doesnt seem to be melee infantry in the list.
Maybe something else? Unless u can kill the mage/tie the archer block in melee for the time sallies slump forward. And then the question is are there any targets for them even then if everyone is in melee. Mayby more sauruses?
 
Thats a tough list to deal with. I would use your fast units to try and kill off everything that is not in his deathstar over the first two or three turns. Meanwhile, marching your saurus towards the archers and casting Ice Shard at the archers with a bunch (5 or 6) dice each turn. Obviously, the salamanders need to get into position to burn the archers, and hopefully getting a couple of shots off before the infantry gets there. Once you are ready to tackle his archers, make sure you charge with everything (maybe not the skirmishers). Try to get your Cowboys into the flank, and charge with your priest so that he can accept a challenge (unless you have a champ in the saurus unit). You don't want your cowboys to fight that Lord, his weapon has Heroic Killing blow and autohits. Try and win the combat and force his unit to crumble.

The other option is to not fight the archers at all. Make him think that you are going after him with the infantry, but only move it up on the first turn. Cast Ice Shard to neutralize the shooting, and then go after his other units with your cowboys and skirmishers. Basically, you are trying to kill everything that is not in the deathstar. You will likely lose the salamanders and skirmishers to his shooting, but the infantry will survive against str3 shooting. He won't be able to kill your Cowboys unless he gets them with the casket or he is able to get his lord into combat with them. Don't let him get that lord into combat. I would probably do a "count" of the number of points he has on the table that is outside of the deathstar... compare that to what you think you will lose, and you should have a decent idea of the outcome. You can also decide this strategy during the second or third turn of the game. If you think you will wipe out his peripheral units, then don't bother fighting his big unit.

Good luck


Edit: rough count has him with 500 pts outside of deathstar (including 200 additional), and your salamanders and skinks at 300. If you keep the priest in the saurus, and use the cowboys to kill the stalkers, knights, and casket then you should win the game.
 
A Steaming Kroak said:
Thats a tough list to deal with. I would use your fast units to try and kill off everything that is not in his deathstar over the first two or three turns. Meanwhile, marching your saurus towards the archers and casting Ice Shard at the archers with a bunch (5 or 6) dice each turn.
Click to expand...

Thanks!
One question comes to mind: Does "ice shard" has any effect on the archers?
(They alway hit on a 5+)

I'll make a battlereport of this game asap and i'll post it on this forum......
 
hado75 said:
One question comes to mind: Does "ice shard" has any effect on the archers?
(They alway hit on a 5+)
Click to expand...

With the wording of the Arrows of Aseph rule and Iceshard Blizzard, Ice Shard has no effect on archers. To hex an archer you have reduce their BS itself (that means Melkoth's Miasma or Transmuation of Lead). Penalties to roll are just ignored.
 
Yeah, wow. That's a tough list to beat with what you have to work with. Your only real hope is to close ground as fast as you can to avoid getting mulched by the Archers.

What gear do you have on the Cowboys?

What level is your Priest? I'd prioritize spells as Comet, Curse, Iceshard. Maybe Chain Lightning. Curse would be best for protection from the Archers, if you're lucky enough to roll it. Comet would force him to close the gap between your army and his Archer block.
 
"With the wording of the Arrows of Aseph rule and Iceshard Blizzard, Ice Shard has no effect on archers. To hex an archer you have reduce their BS itself (that means Melkoth's Miasma or Transmuation of Lead). Penalties to roll are just ignored."

This is correct, I was mistaken about the rule.

Even without the Ice Shard protection, I still think your saurus will survive the entire game if he only attempts to shoot the unit. I think you'll be fine as long as you don't let his Lord get into a combat with your cowboys (or bring the skink priest in to accept the challenge).
 
I didn't find TK magic very scary, but the ability to regenerate models with every spell cast on a unit will keep the archer horde in play all game.

Riddle me this, Batman:

1.
If you line up your saurus block to charge the archers, and line up a salamander pack to flame them from in front will he not shoot at the saurus?

If you elect to charge with your salamander (swift stride) to make contact with the hierophant (possible turn 2, definite turn 3), he can't stand and shoot or flee (immune to psych) and you are immune to fear (unlike saurus).

Your sally and skinks will get off 2x S5 attacks and 3-4x S3 attacks at initiative 4 (Which will be before just about anything in a TK army). He can't challenge in with his TK or run, because you aren't a character.

His return attacks (maybe 9 or so) will need to do 4.5 ish wounds to remove the threat and allow him to shoot in his next turn. If you can sprinkle iceshard onto the unit in your magic phase (after you successfully charge), they will be -1 to hit you back in combat.

During his combat phase he may choose to "Make way" with his TK to use his heroic killing blow, or charge something into sally's flank, to remove the threat, but you still get to attack at better initiative than anything he's got.

By this time his hierophant will be a pile of bones, and his army will start to crumble. The TK himself is one roll of 11 away from crumbling (8% chance), and if you kill him, skeletons crumble on leadership 3 (I think)

Any of your units, excluding the priest and skinks will devour unbuffed archers.

2.
Casket of souls also does magic damage, resolved against the unit's leadership. I can't remember the mechanics. Its guards have killing blow (as do the necroknights), so it should be shot up by skinks or attacked by ranked units rather than cowboys.

3.
Just reviewing the TK list, it only has 2 mobile units: the knights and the stalkers. You should be able to redirect the knights silly with skinks and salamanders until the stalkers appear.

4.
Also, make sure that your SW are engaged in combat before the stalkers appear. Their shooting attack (8 inch range) is 3x artillery dice worth of hits which autokill SW on a 4+.

5.
Magic choices: Curse of midnight wind will (almost) negate killing blow, and will (almost) halve the damage output of the archers. Boosted, it is a 12 inch radius bubble.
Iceshard blizzard will hex his combat, and could stop a second round of stalker shooting if you are unable to engage them in your turn after they appear.
Comet will eventually eat his casket.

6.
Don't forget that the TK is flammable and will receive double wounds if you get him with a lucky template.

7.
Inept general alert! The above is purely theoretical. Bob hasn't played TK for 2 years and should not have his sage advice followed without critical thought.

Could others of the faithful please critique my theories?
 
You are right on 6 out of 7 Bob. The flammable thing hardly ever matters for Salamanders since it depends on a failed look out Sir.

I hear Tomb Kings are much weaker than other armies at low points games but your restricted by your static lists and the fact that the other guy has a 200 point advantage.

I'd recommend charging his stuff as quickly as possible and directing several attacks to take out his characters whenever possible.
 
spawning of Bob said:
If you elect to charge with your salamander (swift stride) to make contact with the hierophant (possible turn 2, definite turn 3), he can't stand and shoot or flee (immune to psych) and you are immune to fear (unlike saurus).

Your sally and skinks will get off 2x S5 attacks and 3-4x S3 attacks at initiative 4 (Which will be before just about anything in a TK army). He can't challenge in with his TK or run, because you aren't a character.

His return attacks (maybe 9 or so) will need to do 4.5 ish wounds to remove the threat and allow him to shoot in his next turn. If you can sprinkle iceshard onto the unit in your magic phase (after you successfully charge), they will be -1 to hit you back in combat.

During his combat phase he may choose to "Make way" with his TK to use his heroic killing blow, or charge something into sally's flank, to remove the threat, but you still get to attack at better initiative than anything he's got.

By this time his hierophant will be a pile of bones, and his army will start to crumble. The TK himself is one roll of 11 away from crumbling (8% chance), and if you kill him, skeletons crumble on leadership 3 (I think)

Any of your units, excluding the priest and skinks will devour unbuffed archers.
Click to expand...

@ spawning of Bob: Thanks for the riddles ;) and the advice!
Is this how the "make way" rule work?
I thought it was like this:

1) I would charge with my (lets say) Sallie in his archerblock (hierophant) in my second turn.
His Tomb King may respond (in my combat phase) with: "make way" to be in combat with my Sallie that round as wel....

2) When i read your answer it has to be played as this: I charge with my Sallie and touch his hierophant. My Close combat phase wil be a battle between my Sallie and his hierophant (archers), then in HIS close combat phase he can use the make way rule en be in combat with my sallie....

That's a HUGE difference..... He cannot shoot for that round for his archers are in combat then....
Can somebody clear this for me?
Is scenario 1 or 2 correct? (And of course why?)

Thanks guys for all the help so far! This is great!
 
The first scenario is correct. He can move his character into combat with "make way" in your combat phase (the turn you charge). The character can't move if he is already in base contact with an enemy. The rule is meant to allow a character to get into the combat when he is not touching an enemy model. (Look up the "make way" rule for clarification - page 100 in the big rule book)

If you were to charge the archer unit so that you got the Tomb King into combat with something other than the cowboys, and had your cowboys (or one of them) touching his Hierophant, then you could simply feed the Lord your skink priest in a challenge and he would either kill the priest in the challenge or he would not be able to move into combat to deal with the cowboys. Your Old Blood should be able to kill the Hierophant in one round, and start his army on its collapse. However, all of his units outside of the archers have leadership 8... so don't expect his army to disappear all that quickly from the loss of the Hierophant.
 
sorry, yes the TK could make way on your combat phase, but you would still have all your attacks before his initiative.

I guess the point is that the archers are the only unit worth sally flaming, but you probably won't eradicate them all, and they won't panic. While you are flaming them, they are shooting back with 20 (or 40 buffed) shots each turn.

So use your sallies as hammers. 88% percent chance of a successful 12 inch swift stride charge. He can tell you how surprised he was over the beer he owes you.

Look forward to the report.
 
I really appriciate the respons on this thread. Great tips and comments....
The battlereport will be up soon after the battle 2night....


As you have seen we are looking at a 1K vs 1.2K battle....

I cannot alter the list, because of campaignrules........i am allowed te add 200 pts worth of units to the list.
To make this a 1.2K vs 1.2K battle....

What would you guys add and why????


My thoughts were:
* another sallie...... they are THAT good imho
* Bastiladon (I want to try out that beam.....Big downside....ld4.....with that casket.....damn......)
* 3 units chameleon skinks.....euhm.... just to threaten/kill that casket....
* 1 unit terradons and a unit chameleons.....euhm.... just to threaten/kill that casket....
* 4 kroxigors......just to add another fast/hardhitting unit to the table.....
 
spawning of Bob said:
sorry, yes the TK could make way on your combat phase, but you would still have all your attacks before his initiative.

I guess the point is that the archers are the only unit worth sally flaming, but you probably won't eradicate them all, and they won't panic. While you are flaming them, they are shooting back with 20 (or 40 buffed) shots each turn.

So use your sallies as hammers. 88% percent chance of a successful 12 inch swift stride charge. He can tell you how surprised he was over the beer he owes you.

Look forward to the report.
Click to expand...

Well i won't be suprised becuase i've read this thread as well :)

The block will shoot with 40 (potentialy 80 buffed) a round.
Sound advise though on the sally's. they are usually my number 1 priority to eliminate.
 
I would probably pick the Kroxigors from your presented options. They are fast, hard hitting, have a good number of wounds, they are immune to his killing blow, and have good leadership to deal with the Casket.
 
Chameleon said:
Well i won't be suprised becuase i've read this thread as well :)
Click to expand...


Dang! That Chameleon is good! Now he looks like a Tomb King!

Is nowhere in Lustria Safe?
 
As another thought for your 200pts, you could maybe look at a single Razordon + 2 unit of 5 chameleon skinks?

Main point being the razor will give you more "Heirophant-assassins" and the chameleons can also march and shoot, making them a manoeuvrable unit that could go after the casket or Stalkers potentially? 20 poisoned shots (both units firing) = ~3 auto wounds so a decent chance at popping the casket. If the enemies clustered around the casket, the explosion can take a good chunk out of the Stalkers or Necro Knights. If they're more spread out you can get at the casket easier (also note the cohorts can fill this duty as well, or if the casket was more of a secondary priority, you could grab 2 single razors and a single cham. unit or a skink skirmisher unit).

Priority targets I'd say were:

1) characters - Heirophant to start crumble, followed by King to pull the unit's teeth in combat and drop the LD for crumble. Kamikaze sallies/razors are probably your best bet. He can't leave the safety of his unit if you have some chameleons in the back-field either....

2) Casket - Brutal at this points bracket, taking it out will depend on how it's played - Protected chamo's are probably your best bet, and the explosion could be helpful. More on it's own it will be easier to pop but you'll also have to be careful not to get too many units near it.

Final thought: Could you potentially get some toys for your cowboys with some of the extra 200pts? Thinking charmed shield/ Opal amulet could be handy to help your characters against that DoE King? (Keep them with the saurus until needed , then charge out, into base contact with the heirophant) KB is scary but that king is the only thing making that big block decent in combat. Get rid of him and keep it in combat and it's just 1 big tarpit.
 
Hi Guys,

We played our game last night and it was a tough battle!
Lizardmen came out on top, but with heavy losses!

The game was great with luck swinging from left to right...
(My scar-vet was Killing blowed in turn 2, but 10 brave little skinks went on a killing spree in CC vs the archers....)

I'm starting on the report asap en post it on this forum.

Thanks again for all the help!
 
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