7th Ed. How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 13th, '09)

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

Finally able to check upon this forum.. Busy weekends suck with a warhammer 'tournament' where only 5 people ( me included) show up.. at least 3 more were expected still not that much. Nice players..they allowed me to use a proxy for my skink priest which i forgot to bring with me. I still feel bad for the 39 goblin archers that ran off the table after one Salamander shot a goblin dead 2nd round. It was a fun day without any cheese around. It sometimes pays off to hand out drinks to people.

Looking forward to the ideas you got.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

The point about being able to laugh at your setbacks is a good one, but I'd even take it a bit further. Try looking at the battle less as a contest you are trying to win and more as a cool story you and your opponent are telling together. I know, I know - its sounds really lame, all warm and fuzzy and full of rainbows, but it really works.

Don't misunderstand, I like to win as much as anyone, but honestly I also like to lose - especially if its in a really cool way, like first turn my opponents repeater bolt thrower hits ALL randomize onto and kill the skink priest on the engine of the gods. Me and my opponent had a good laugh about that as I mimed a skink getting a bolt between the eyes. Really its about having fun, and I've found that if I can enjoy my opponents successes almost as much as my own, I have a lot more fun.

I know guys who play who basically are pissed off every game. Why bother? Frankly it takes a long time to play even a small game of Warhammer, and I have better things to do than take several hours out of my busy life to be pissed and annoyed. I've also found that if I laugh a lot and clearly have fun while a cheesy opponent slaughters me, it can actually change the cheeser's attitude. I still get slaughtered by a cheesy list, but at least the guys not being a jack@$$ the whole time.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 1st, '09)

J.J. thanks for your insightful post there! I like the idea of the game telling a story and think thats an excellent point. It doesn't sound lame at all to me considering that our gaming group has a few folks who will write newspaper article type stories about the games and what happens in them. Some go as far as to demand an army name and general name to include in their stories, which adds a roleplaying element to the game and is a great way to recount a battle.


*edit*
Still to come:
1) Cheesy player vs. Cheesy lists
2) Gaming group differences
3) What to do when Cheese goes rotten
4) How can Lizardmen be cheesy?

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 6th, '09)

It is saddening to think that other players can be pushed to destroying anothers models simply because they cannot handle the fact that their list is intrinsically not pleaseant to face even in a competative environment, but alas it is a fact that such things happen all the time...

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 6th, '09)

One of the guys I face regularly is a notorious cheese monkey. He loves his vampire counts, his pink horror spam and his triple chaos knights lists. (which he sometimes proxies for blood knights) He wins like 9/10 games, but I gain valuable knowledge of how to deal with these super huge extremes and the only times I can win are due to extreme generalship (or luck). I find that it makes it fun, other people just don't play against him. He is friendly and doesn't really whine (excessively), if dice do something stupid, like letting a slann break, he allows mulligans and I allow mulligans to him in return, and he gives great advice on twinking for tournaments. (though I don't usually follow his advice since his lists tend to be a bit.... extreme. Ideas like, why not 3 engines of the gods? Or, how many fanatics CAN you fit into 1500 points?)



I know another player that is a great strategist, gives great advice and really trumps up how important being a chessmaster is to warhammer. He is unrelenting, never allows take backs, and loudly decries the more "for fun" players in our group as being bad strategists. However, whenever some unexpected misfortune happens to him, or someone else foils his plans, he is kind of a sore loser about it and blames dice a bit more then I consider healthy.


Personally I play more games with the first then second, which would you guys favor in most honesty?

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 6th, '09)

I play against someone similar to the second one.. He ain't great at chess as far as I know.. But he comes with good strategies. He does not allow taking something back.. well he allows magic sometimes if I rushed to shooting. But the thing I hate the most about playing against him is his endless whine on how bad he rolls and how good I roll (Compared to his rolls). How it would be possible that I take out 5 dwarfs with 14 Blowpipe shots..He cries on things that statistically ain't possible.

I still would prefer to play against the second person the most I think. With any game I play I want to raise my 'level' higher and higher.. Now with some games I am just not able to do so and with some I am. Raising the bar as a competitive person is priority..Taking rolls back because dice didn't love you? Too bad. Charging at the end of combat step because you didn't know at the start if you wanted to? Think faster. It sounds very lame.. but it is both best for you and the game.

Don't get me wrong.. I do play to have fun..But I do want to win. It's not like I will cry myself to sleep if I wouldn't win(I've lost so many times).Sometimes you win something with losing.. As long as you can play in a Healthy Competitive vibe with balanced lists, it should be fun.

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 6th, '09)

I have on occasion not let a player go back to something they have forgotten, but most if the time if they're half way through magic and mention that they forgot to move a unit, I don't mind at all. I mean, what if your opponent has something like the VC crown of the damned (4+ ward and stupidity) and neither of you are used to a vampire being stupid, so you both forget it until the combat phase starts. Would you want them to go back and take the stupidity test, particularly if failing it would mean they aren't in combat with one of your units?

The article is looking great so far, Baratok. I m enjoying reading it!

 

Re: How to Handle Cheese (Updated: July 6th, '09)

i hate to be the noob of this forum, but why exactly are they called "cheesers" i mean, i understand who they are and why they are, i just dont understand the origin of the name cheeser. if anyone could explain that would be great because it'll bother me until i know

 

Well, I choose to use the term 'cheeser' in the guide to establish consistency as far as the type of player or person that I am refering to. I think that the reason the term is used is because a 'cheeser' is someone who typcially uses a 'cheesy' list. This term may not cross international or cutlural boundaries so perhaps it would be good for me to go a little more 'textbook'. When something is refered to as cheesy, it is a slang term for something that is cheap or slightly underhanded. It indicates exploiting the rules of a known or unknown flaw in order to further ones personal gain. So by way of definition, someone who uses a cheesy list (in order to expliot or maximize the rules to win) is refered to as a 'cheeser'. I won't take credit for the term myself because I think it's used elsewhere. Like I mentioned earlier, having a single term that is used throughout the guide makes it clear there is no mistaking the type of person we are talking about, and often times, who we are not talking about.

Awesome question which I don't think that there is a cold hard answer to. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For me personally, it really depends on the situation. Sometimes situations that come up like this will drastically alter the outcome of the game. You know the type that I'm talking about given the example you cited. If it's my error that is made (and god knows I forget my COC's stupidity all the time, to a point where I place 3D6 in front of them, so they can't move without me seeing the die sitting there), then I am first to admit it, apologize and allow the opponent to decide what he wants to do. If it's to his advantage, then I'm usually quite insistent upon him taking that advantage. If the mistake is in my favor, I look for ways to make the game 'correct' by the rules standard, and waive any advantage that I've gained. Obviously, you have to work with your opponent on this, but I always try and give my opponent the benefit of the doubt, until it becomes clear he's trying to 'work the system'.

Not to turn things around on you Stewart, but what do you do in that type of situation?



Added another section to the guide tonight entitled, "Cheesy List vs. Cheesy Player"! There's obviously more that can fit in it and so I'm going to ask anyone who has more suggestions who is still reading this to speak out and offer your thoughts! Even if it isn't on the currently added section. I also added a new 'Contributor's Credits' section which I want to keep updated, when I change or add to the guide based on the discussion in this thread. Feel free to PM me if you feel that I've missed your name, if you have ideas for sections, contributions for parts of the guide (written or unwritten) or suggestions on how to make it better (from formatting to content). I've greatly enjoyed the discussion and look forward to more great comments! Thanks for making my day!


More to come still. I will be working more on the guide throughout the week and weekend here with more sections to come.
1) How can the Lizardmen be cheesy?
2) What to do when Cheese goes rotten
3) Gaming Group Differences

I'm going to ask for some more input again here. The next subject I'd like to tackle is #1, how can LM be cheesy. I'm looking for suggestions on lists and general tactics that you think are cheesy, have been called out for being cheesy or are just exploits that the LM have to offer than can be downright devastating. It should open up some good debate/discussion and also give us some great content for that section. Thanks ahead of time and thanks for reading!

 

Ya know, I don't know where the term cheesy originated from... I believe it comes from a more general slang usage of the term cheesy, where you might say a movie or song is cheesy because it is trying too hard, which would almost be the definition in WH terms. Explaining it in a literal sense is probably the best way.

This will depend completely on the environment and the opponent I am playing. If it is someone who may be a bit on the cheesy side and takes the game a bit too seriously, measuring to within millimeters and such, then I would probably make them take the test. If they are 'forgetting' it every turn, I would make them take it. One of my regular opponents (who are also friends) I may or may not care, in most cases I figure they probably would have passed the test anyway and let it go until next turn. Sometimes if it is a close game (who doesn't like one of those?) and the stupidity test is failed after the unit is in combat and combat is about to start, we will just give them a small penalty like -1 to hit and let the game go on.

If I myself forgot a stupidity test on my own units, I would definitely leave it in my opponents hands whether they want me to take it and possibly withdraw my unit if it charged, or just let it slide and remember it next turn.

I'll see what I can do about cheesy LM lists a bit later. The obvious one is maximizing on stegadons and/or magic. I think LM are fairly well balanced though.

 

Twas recently chatting with a chap about cheese, it was a long discussion on how to deal with a certain cheese. We also spoke about warhammer...(Yes I know, but I couldn't resist lol)

Anywho, as the story goes I was approached by a chap in my local store a while back who I've chatted with before. He had just come off the boards from a game in which his opponent fielded the aforementioned 4 steg tactic and he was asking my opinion, as a LM player, on how best to deal with such a force.

My advice was either don't play, take something just as brutal (he plays elves of some description) or, in exchange for allowing that player to run his clearly unfair list, allow for some tactical advantage of the non-cheesers part.

For example, possibly an additional 500 point limit or depolyment advantage i.e. some sort of ambush setup with the 4steg list in convoy formation down the centre with the other players deployment zone being in the surrounding area, and so forth.

 

Depending on what sort of elves would depend on the answer... Really nothing short of a dragon in a HE list would have a chance of dealing with a couple of stegadons, there isn't anything high strength. In fact there is only one way to get ANYTHING up to s7 (chariot munching) and that is with an overpriced magic lance, which obviously only works on the charge.

It is a good idea to allow some kind of concession to make up for the excessive stegadons, and would make the game closer and more fun, but remember if you are dealing with a cheesy player they are out to win the game and win well, they aren't going to allow such.

 

What has struck me as strange about the four steg list is that if you go to GW's website, you can find pictures and description of such a list. This is one of the suggested lists that you 'could' use as a newer LM player. I was quite surprised that they would suggest something like this on the website because everyone that I've talked to has a few choice words for me about the Thunder Lizard list, as it's called. I know that everyone would be looking at me funny (at the very best) in my gaming group if i showed up with the Thunder Lizard list. Most likely a debate would ensue that would end with me changing my list to something a little more balanced. In fact, I can't see myself taking this list unless I was a very competitive tournament player or wanting to exact revenge on an equally cheesy player.

At this point though, I think that this list is at the top of the list for cheesiness. At least, it seems to be the one that is mentioned most and frowned upon. A curious thing that I find is that it seemed that LM magic seemed to be complained about the most in 6th edition. Now, while we still can achieve a ridiculous amount of power dice, heavy magic seems to have been squashed by the Thunder Lizard list as the most complained about LM list.

I'll be adding to the guide tonight so stay tuned.

 

A few points about the heavy magic list; it costs an insane amount of points to build one. The Slann is now vulnerable to the 7th ed quite nasty miscast table (though can have some protection). With the new VC being a very common army, and to a lesser degree daemons, magic heavy is becoming less frowned upon and more common IMO, it also seems to be viewed as a touch less scary. This is why I believe the thunderlizard list (despite GW silly endorsement) is scarier than the magic heavy list now, though very magic heavy still has a high potential to unbalance the game.

 

Id probably venture a guess that GW endorses the "Thunder Lizard" list to a) showcase the new stegadon in its various forms (ancient, EotG, and standard) and thus b) encourage people to buy the "shiny new" stegadon model rather than use the old one or buy cheaper plastic kits... ain't marketing techniques fun!?!

On the topic at hand, In my local area people also seem to take exception to any army that fields more than a Level 4 wizard general and a level 2 "support/ caddy mage. So a list with a slann and EotG or even just 2 EotG's seems to rank in the "Permesan" catergory...