7th Ed. Jungle Swarms.... are they a do or don't?

You summed it up nicely and what it says to me is this: Those points in a different set of models is always more useful. How about a unit of 10 Skirmishers for 20 poisoned attacks from range with more movement and maneuverability for 20 points less than a set of 2 Jungle Swarms?

 

Well, im glad i summed up something correctly... i'm just sad that it didn't persuade you...

 

If you're trying to persuade him that paying 45pts for a model that crumbles in combat and that if you put enough of them on the table that they're effective, you'll need to provide a little more evidence than what you wrote. I think that the general consensus is that they may be effective, but it takes too much of a points investment to make it worth it. Other models could do the job much more effectively and give you many other benefits.

 

It was inended as more of a joke, i've changed it to wink now, hoping it'll come out like that...

The above statement sms them up quite abit better... though im one of those people who'll spend those points, but not at a lower point battle... i love the idea of the before mentioned giant being taken down by itty bitty lizards, serpents and other poisonous killers. I am also one of the people that thinks they could use a decrease in points, im stuck between the two....

 

Don't. They crumble. They'e expensive. They're poo.

 

I would not field any jungle swarms, purely because they are inferior to other swarms like Tomb Swarms.
For the same amount of points as jungle swarms, tomb swarms have 1 less movement but cause fear, are immune to psychology and can deep strike for useful ambushes on war machines. And they count towards the minimum of core units in the army.

However, on another note, they sure look fun to paint/model.

 

Yes, i've sarted thinking about trying my hand at a specific Lizardmen terrain, i've been thinking (seeing as i really want to use the Jungle Swarms) of modeling the Snake Pits and using lots of Jungle Swarms to line the pit.


Hmm.... more idea for that special mission... the raid of a Temple City and the Lizardmen let the snakes out of the pit....

 

I have to say that I originally thought that there ws little point in taking swarms in a battle. However just recently I introduced a friend into warhammer and thought I'd take it a little easier on him and field some swarms (so he might win and therefore more likely to continue with the hobby) against him using empire. I had two bases of them (90pts) and they charged a unit of 20 militia. They caused 6 wounds and therefore the unit could not fight back that turn as front rank taken out, and I won the combat then by one, broke the unit pursued cutting them down and then had the swarm behind the enemy lines able to run amuck into their cannons on the hill close by or into rear of units etc.
I've also since fielded the two swarms against orcs and goblins and charged a chariot tying it up for a turn and breaking it to charge into a giant and snap it in one turn.
I then also used two just behind each other to redirect the charge of a unit of blood knights in a VC army. With Frenzy hey had to charge, and it put them out of the game until last turn where dance of mccarb spell put them into combat but by then the swarms had done their job and brought me victory.
In all the three times I have used them I was very impressed for their 90 points and I may use them again another day.... I will agree that for their points there are other things in LM army that could do similair roles in battle, but remember that 2 swarms is ten poisoned attacks and 3 swarms fifteen poisoned attacks on the charge. If used against the right unit (ie with low armour) fifteen poisoned attacks can do a fair bit and hopefully the opponent can't fight back that turn you may win the combat if not you will only lose one or two wounds and get to fight next turn (unbreakable) your opponent doesn't get to charge in their turn.
so against the right opponent and situation such as taking down giants with their poison attacks they are well worth the points. Charge them at the right targets and/or for redirecting charges they are well worth including (especially if you like the feel of them as far as theme in the army).
I prefer to play a game using an army that I like the feel of and look, theme etc. and play to have fun, not so much win (that's a bonus if it happens especially when fielding an army you have spent so much time creating background and story of) as it just adds another element to your games especially if your opponent has the same approach.
But to answer the question, I'd say yes if you can spare the points. and what you plan to use them for.
Hope this helps and maybe convince you to give them a go before writing them off (like I orignally did) just because of their crumble rule.

 

Sounds like you have some great rolls with your swarms. Some of the tournament players will disagree with your post 100% dispite your success though. I prefer not to use them because of their cost and the fact that they can win big, like you've experienced and also lose big. I don't really have room in my list for something that is so expensive but doesn't insure its use. For example, I can't tie a big unit up with them because they may just crumble and die. I could spend a little more for a small unit of spear sarus that will never crumble, can win combats and can also fill a variety of other roles in the army. You'll find that is the reason that most prefer not to use them. I am glad that you've had good luck with them though.

 

Itzi-Bitzi: I'm glad you finally see the light. I run two one-base swarm units and put them as flank defenders. They work wonders! If you have skink ten-man units put one swarm next to them and they work well as a team.
I recommend trying to break your 2-base unit to two on-base units.

Barotok: I'm a tournament player and I won tournaments using swarms. Don't speak for others.

 

I love them because of the feel that swarms bring to your army as a whole and I won't argue that there are other things that can do the job on the battlefield as well as what the swarms can do however the saurus won't do the same for the feel or look of the army as a whole.
When charging I have found the swarms to be very effective often holding their own ok, when being charged it doesn't take much before the crumbling. However they almost always hold out two two turns on their own, which is more than I can say for my unit of 11 skinks and Krox of similiar points costs... whom don't usually last as long against the VC army in combat

 

He wasn't "speaking for others", just articulating a general opinion collected from many of the posts on this site. It wasn't as if he was trying to replace people's views, only warn Bitzi that there will be a crowd of people who do not share his opinion (and his amazing successes).

 

Don't get your shoe laces in a knot.


Itzi-Bitzi: I agree with you. Fluff-wise the swarms fit the army like a glove.

 

I will agree that my success so far with my swarms has had a lot to do with luck, but is often the case with lots of units in the game. I will still take them because i like the feel of them and I understand why others do not. I was merely pointing out that if you like the idea of swarms give em a go, if they don't do the trick for your army and your playing style don't take em. I have on occassions and so far they have done well every time for me.

 

So I wanted to wait to check my book before commenting on this thread again, since one part of the GW website says swarms have M4 and another part says M5. And it is on exactly the same page describing jungle swarms.

Movement 5, fairly decent given you get 5 poisoned attacks from each base. Yes you have had pretty decent luck so far, Itzi-Bitzi, and it will take more than a few games of luck to even make most people here slightly reconsider. They are very expensive points wise, you cannot deny that. If they were 30-35 that would be more fair.

Lets see what might happen if you grab a unit of 3 though. Since they are only s2, I will ignore normal hits and wounds, they will on average get 2.5 poisoned wounds (3 bases). Not really as much as I was expecting when I started typing before I did the calculation... Better add in the normal wounds; maybe an extra 1-2 wounds against basic infantry for the hits that aren't poison.

For your trouble, you won't flee but will crumble. You now need to lose combat by less than 5 if you want to keep the unit completely effective in the next turn. You will be facing 3 ranks, standard, outnumber. 5. You need to outkill whatever unit you charge, if that is indeed your tactic. Lets be optomistic and say you get 2 wounds total (assuming your opponent is the standard t3 infantry with 4+ save*, half the poisoned wounds are saved and only .83 of the other hits gets through. Ouch) this leaves a unit champ and 2 others, so 4 attacks back. 2 hit, 1.3 wound, you are looking at 1-2 wounds back. Sometimes a lot more, sometimes a lot less, all we can do is look at average which is afterall most common/likely outcome. Chances are, you will not outkill your opponent, and this is with 3 swarms remember.

I was actually going to advocate swarms at this point, but looking at this... It is hard. I was going to suggest combining them with a skink (krox?) unit, where the swarms charge the front of a unit while the skinks line up on the flank ready for next turn. Maybe I have just come up with a poor use for them, but I guess even if a base dies and leaves only two when the skinks charge you are still getting rid of the 3 ranks, adding a flank charge to negate outnumber and maybe even bringing a banner to swing the combat. The 2 swarms need to survive the opponents turn first though.

I think I'm too out of it to finish the analysis. Poor use for swarms on average, though there will certainly be lucky cases like Itzi had. If I was going to double team, for the points of 3 swarms I'd rather have a small unit of saurus.. This leads us back to their potential use as units of 1 for small speed bumps or to direct charges. And that has been discussed already.

Well, I certainly tried but unfortunately I'm still not convinced, and I'm not sure how you have spare points to throw around on them. The LM army is expensive, I always find myself struggling for points and trying to squeeze a few things out to keep within the points. Maybe in an all skink army they would be easier to justify, but when you grab a lord choice, a steg maybe, and some saurus you are definitely on the struggling side of points rather than 'hmm what should I throw this extra 100 points into?'

*Of course swarm friends are going to say they are better against high toughness low armour troops. Generally, these kind of troops are better than just s3. Ghouls being the most common example these days IMO, you will kill an extra 1 or 2 but in return they have 2 attacks each anyway so you gain little overall in my example

 

I hit the Post Reply button before even reading the 4th page of this thread. I was surprised that so many people already had made the same statement that I had typed up.

Please read my post again. I used the word "some" tournament players. This is meant to imply that not all tournament players feel this way. If you are not including yourself in the "some" that I mentioned, then I am not speaking for you. If you disagree with my post, that's fine. I didn't intend for it to be definitive in any way.

I don't see anyone acting like this right now. You obviously misread the statement and didn't intend to spark argument/discussion based on the subject. I don't see how quoting things the way you did and making the response that you did remidies the situation or isn't intended to stir more discussion.


Not withstanding: Jungle Swarms

I will take another in depth look at this unit when I have some time. It won't be the first time that I've done this, and possibly not the last. I know that each time I've analyzed them they don't seem statistically sound at all (by comparison of other troop types which are available to the list, not to even mention cheaper). Strewart already mentioned several of these arguments and I don't feel the need to reiterate them as obviously this unit holds different values for different players. I do agree with pretty much everything he said.

As for me, I have had terrible luck using Jungle Swarms in games. They've never really done what I've intended them to do. They don't seem to stick around for long and usually get rolled over without the opponent giving them too much heed. I've tried multiple different tactics to try and find that 'redeeming' situation, but I've never come across it. I don't consider myself a JS expert by any means and perhaps I've have had a run of bad luck. But no matter how the dice get tossed they always seem to come up short. This doesn't mean that someone else (or many someone else's in this case) can swear by them because they save the day in tight situations. I have never had that experience.

For those that use them with some or great success, I would encourage you to impart your knowledge of their use to us here so that perhaps I can finally figure out what I've been missing about this unit. Right now, I can't find a good reason to bench a far more cost effective unit to give the Jungle Swarms yet another chance.

Eagerly awaiting a response on tactics.

 

Barotok: It seems that this stuff happens from time to time on various forums. When people type things they get misinterpreted. Hope I didn't offend to you to much, wasn't my intention. After all we all share the "cold-blooded" rule.

Itzi-Bitzi & strewart: You did a great job summing up this thread.
strewart, you're right about the LM army being expensive. I too find it hard to fit in even the smallest thing on top of my two units of saurus, steg, and carnosaur.


In my last couple of cents on this thread...Use the swarms if you like them and they fit your playstyle. They might not be the best unit in the army but they sure are fun.

 

I recently decided to add two swarms to my army. Now I know you could ALMOST get 2 units of skink cohorts for the price of two swarms but skink cohorts arnt unbreakable and "small". Ten unbreakable wounds with ten poisoned attacks isnt so bad in my perspective as I think they could be a serious pain if used right. I dont know ill see how they fare. Besides I think they look cool and are easier to paint then 20 skinks with shields and javelins.

 

Also, its not to hard to roll three 6's on ten dice and against a giant (my brother uses 2 in his O&G's) that would make up their pts as you would get half VP's for a thrice wounded giant. I also doubt the giant would be able to kill them off in a single turn. As a matter of fact I beleive 2 swarms would put the rape on a giant.

 

In situations like this I think it's actually really helpful to consider not only the expectation (average) like you have, but also the variance (how spread out from the average it is). Another case of LM tactics where I think that the statistics haven't been done thoroughly enough are razordons, which I imagine have a massive variance. The only difficulty there is that salamander hits are a bit random and hard to judge for comparison.